Ambulance and a red light

[Challo]

I think it depends on the junction, and what you can or cannot do. Most of the times its possible for you creep forward slightly across the white line allowing enough space for the Emergency Vehicle to get through.

If it was blind junction, and i was not able to see the other traffic then I would not have moved, and waited till the green light.

OP - Can you show us the junction in question?

[matchmaker]

Trif said:

hondansx said:

You should have moved. I hate to be melodramatic, but do you really put a ticket/fine ahead of a potential life or death situation?

Why does the law put a fine/3 points ahead of someone's life? Wouldn't it make more sense for the law to change to allow this situation? Instead of relying on the public to break it?

<cynic> To make more money out of an innocent motorist? <cynic>

[Charlie Michael]

Challo said:

I think it depends on the junction, and what you can or cannot do. Most of the times its possible for you creep forward slightly across the white line allowing enough space for the Emergency Vehicle to get through.

If it was blind junction, and i was not able to see the other traffic then I would not have moved, and waited till the green light.

OP - Can you show us the junction in question?

The is the junction: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4107103,-0.29673...

I'm in the left lane of the right only lanes so effectively the middle lane.

As I said before, I can creep forward - but only past a red - which is where I felt unsure as to what to do.

[surveyor]

No obvious camera's. Plenty of you to creep forward and move to one side.

Not surprised he was a little pissed off. Obviously he should not be pressuring you, but he knows what he's heading to and you don't.

[surveyor]

kapiteinlangzaam said:

Its a shame, but thats what the UK has become (by and large). Making room for an emergency vehicle is NOT a defence against a red light ticket, and ultimately the Ambulance driver should not have forced himself in to a situation where he/she was relying on a MoP to run a red to make progress.

Looking at the junction if traffic in all 3 lanes ambo driver would have had no option....

[Charlie Michael]

surveyor said:

No obvious camera's. Plenty of you to creep forward and move to one side.

Not surprised he was a little pissed off. Obviously he should not be pressuring you, but he knows what he's heading to and you don't.

This morning I didn't have room to creep to the side - I tend to sit quite close to the curb when in a queue so as to allow motorbikes room in the middle to filter. The Ambulance had come from the left hand lane as it was less busy. So he's parked diagonally behind me straddling 2 lanes, but he's so far over to my nearside that I couldn't reverse and swing right.

Literally, my only option was to go forward. I will also add that the junction is very busy (normally a crowd standing in the middle (school kids) as there is a school to the left and a school straight over. They're all waiting for their respective lights to go green for them.

[surveyor]

Charlie Michael said:

surveyor said:

No obvious camera's. Plenty of you to creep forward and move to one side.

Not surprised he was a little pissed off. Obviously he should not be pressuring you, but he knows what he's heading to and you don't.

This morning I didn't have room to creep to the side - I tend to sit quite close to the curb when in a queue so as to allow motorbikes room in the middle to filter. The Ambulance had come from the left hand lane as it was less busy. So he's parked diagonally behind me straddling 2 lanes, but he's so far over to my nearside that I couldn't reverse and swing right.

Literally, my only option was to go forward. I will also add that the junction is very busy (normally a crowd standing in the middle (school kids) as there is a school to the left and a school straight over. They're all waiting for their respective lights to go green for them.

You've got plenty of room to move forward and pull to one side without even affecting the traffic flow into the junction.

Yes this is not legal, but given that there is no camera you have to make your own moral judgement as you do when you exceed the speed limit. Personally in the absence of a visible camera I'd have gone forward to let him by. Legally you were in the right, so if that suits you go for it.

Not sure what the crowd has to do with it. They are all presumably keeping out of the way of the queue with the noisy yellow thing, and its not like you'd need to go beyond crawl speed.

[Charlie Michael]

surveyor said:

Charlie Michael said:

surveyor said:

No obvious camera's. Plenty of you to creep forward and move to one side.

Not surprised he was a little pissed off. Obviously he should not be pressuring you, but he knows what he's heading to and you don't.

This morning I didn't have room to creep to the side - I tend to sit quite close to the curb when in a queue so as to allow motorbikes room in the middle to filter. The Ambulance had come from the left hand lane as it was less busy. So he's parked diagonally behind me straddling 2 lanes, but he's so far over to my nearside that I couldn't reverse and swing right.

Literally, my only option was to go forward. I will also add that the junction is very busy (normally a crowd standing in the middle (school kids) as there is a school to the left and a school straight over. They're all waiting for their respective lights to go green for them.

You've got plenty of room to move forward and pull to one side without even affecting the traffic flow into the junction.

Yes this is not legal, but given that there is no camera you have to make your own moral judgement as you do when you exceed the speed limit. Personally in the absence of a visible camera I'd have gone forward to let him by. Legally you were in the right, so if that suits you go for it.

The thing is that if I knew that I could creep forward, I would!

I don't want to impede progress made by any emergency vehicle. I guess ultimately, I'm being selfish in thinking of myself above someone in a much worse situation than mine, however, that was my default 'go-to' approach purely based on the fact that I don't want to get stung financially for years by risking getting a fine/points by doing what is the right thing. It pisses me off that there is no flexibility for common sense.

[Swanny87]

The ambulance driver should have been reading ahead and should have seen the red light way in advance instead of coming across it. It sounds like he took it out on the horn and you after realising he made the mistake. It worries me that there are people driving ambulances that would not plan ahead and let their emotions get the better of them. It's a grey area and I generally agree that if you have absolutely no doubts as to whether it is safe to go through the red then you should move just past it in an effort to make room. In absolutely no way should a driver proceed through a junction on a red light, no matter how well sighted.

[speedking31]

hondansx said:

I hate to be melodramatic, but do you really put a ticket/fine ahead of a potential life or death situation?

hondansx said:

I don't think anyone would suggest he should just drive into oncoming traffic...

I hate to be melodramatic, but do you really put the condition of your car ahead of a potential life or death situation?

[Matttracker]

My stance is the same as the other police and ambulance driver in this thread.
As a trained response driver along with my colleagues. We are taught not to push people out at all if there's a red light either offside and go through or sit back a few car lengths and turn it all off leaving rear lights flashing, forcing one driver through could cause an accident and even a minor one, you have to stop and wait to sort out.
Or the drivers can panic and make you more blocked nthanyou were.
Leaving it for lights to change means traffi. Gets out the way safely and pulls over and you sail through much easier.
There are times when you really want to get there as sounds urgent but the majority if the time a few minutes makes no difference at all.

Now if I could teach the public not to pull over infront of me in between a traffic island thar'd be amazing

Op you did the right thing the drivers as a bit of a tt for horning you!


Saying all this, if it's completely safe and you can see that and there's no camera I'd prefer if you went a couple meters and moved over!

Finally we can only direct you through a red light if were stood infront waving you through because of an accident or similar, not from behind you in a car

Edited by Matttracker on Wednesday 26th November 13:46

[Swanny87]

Charlie Michael said:

Did you read my post? I said that I had already pulled up, handbrake on before I even heard the ambulance coming round a corner with it's blues on. The ambulance also parked close enough to my rear bumper that reversing was out of the question.

Of course I don't want to be the reason that someone lives or dies, however, I have never been in a situation where my only route out of the situation was to go through a red light. so I'm asking on here for opinions from those that have been in this situation before and straight from the horse's mouth of the emergency services drivers.

I will add that after 10 seconds or so, the lights changed and I pulled over past the junction to let him through. So hopefully it had no impact on the person they were heading for.

I would also say from reading this that the ambulance used his sirens way too late and surprised everyone. An ambulance arriving behind you should not be a surprise. Seems there are also some mouthbreathers behind the wheel of emergency vehicles not just sat in the middle lane. Good job they only had to wait ten seconds...

[dazwalsh]

The death of logic and common sense has turned this country to st. I am gobsmacked creeping through a red and pulling over to let an ambulance through is not deemed a defence in court, i have done this numerous times out of instinct and not thought of the consequences of a fine. I will have to re-evaluate next time.

[EnthusiastOwned]

HTP99 said:

It is up to the individual to decide what he or she wants to do, however as it stands they have to remain behind the light, according to the law and the Highway Code, it isn't the Ambulance drivers place or right to try and force or intimidate you to go through the red light and as stated, the ambulance driver was clearly in the wrong.

That's my point. It's up to the individual to assess the current situation and decide what's the safest, red light law shouldn't be the priority here, common sense should be. In fact, I wouldn't even consider the red light in this situation, only the junction itself.

Regardless how the ambulance driver is acting, intimidating or not - He has a job to do and sitting blocking him for the sake of a few feet, a law written by some bureaucrat and some misguided moral compass is clearly wrong in my opinion.

Impasse said:

EnthusiastOwned said:

So? Can you not make decisions for yourself?

The magistrate will take that requirement away from you.


Oh and this has mentioned a couple of times:

KTF said:

This is why the law states that you do not cross a red light unless instructed to do so by the Police.

The driver of the vehicle behind jumping up and down in their seat while flapping their hands around does not constitute instructions.

As above. I know what the law states nor did I say follow instructions, quite the contrary. The law was written as a generic rule that everyone can follow, for the greater good; but it doesn't take into account logic for every single relevant situation, that's where common sense comes in (but common sense isn't common, hence the requirement for the law).

Personally, I'm against blindly following a generic rule aimed at those with poor judgement, awareness or self preservation and I'd be happy to raise that with any magistrate should it ever arise, morally I will hold my head high that I did everything in my power to help someone in need.


Anyway, back to the point - We still haven't found out whether it was actually clear (safe) to move forward or not, other than the red light; only that the OP chose not to. My argument here is from the angle that the OP could have safely moved forward and it was clear to do so, but chose not to because of the red light and the law.

Edit - Just seen the road junction. Bags of safe manoeuvring room, I mean, un-contending amounts of safe room. I hold my stance.

Edited by EnthusiastOwned on Wednesday 26th November 14:05

[dazwalsh]

^^ from the look of the junction it appears there is a good 4 car lengths of space before you reach the flowing traffic from the junction itself

[KTF]

Impasse said:

KTF said:

This is why the law states that you do not cross a red light unless instructed to do so by the Police.

The driver of the vehicle behind jumping up and down in their seat while flapping their hands around does not constitute instructions.

I never implied that it did.

[KTF]

surveyor said:

I do wonder how patient any emergency service driver would be if you did not dap into a bus lane to let them past as that video suggested.

Why should you move into the bus lane if it is clear? If it is covered by cameras then you may get a fine for doing so.

They services would use the bus lane to get round you instead so you should stay put.

[Impasse]

KTF said:

Impasse said:

KTF said:

This is why the law states that you do not cross a red light unless instructed to do so by the Police.

The driver of the vehicle behind jumping up and down in their seat while flapping their hands around does not constitute instructions.

I never implied that it did.

Indeed, my reply was a general one rather than specifically aimed at anyone. I was only using your comment as it was the most recent and succinct.

[KTF]

Impasse said:

Indeed, my reply was a general one rather than specifically aimed at anyone. I was only using your comment as it was the most recent and succinct.

Ah, ok

[Charlie Michael]

EnthusiastOwned said:

Anyway, back to the point - We still haven't found out whether it was actually clear (safe) to move forward or not, other than the red light; only that the OP chose not to. My argument here is from the angle that the OP could have safely moved forward and it was clear to do so, but chose not to because of the red light and the law.

It was clear for me to move forward through the red light.

You're also right that using common sense, I could've moved forward safely - However, seeing the responses from here. It appears that some others that have driven through the red light, have ended up suffering unfairly at the hands of the law.

Also, seeing as a couple of Paramedics have said that I have done the right thing. It is something that I will continue to do so in the future.