RE: All-wheel drive, half the fun? PH Blog
Discussion
Lots of discussion of RWD over AWD. What about where the same car is available in both FWD and AWD versions but no RWD version? Is AWD less fun? Not in my experience.
For example, I have a 4WD car with rear-based Torsen centre-diff because I prefer the feel of that to the FWD version. Additional traction in slippery conditions is just a bonus. FWD is fine in small hatchbacks, it's less fun than a decent 4WD car in a large, heavy family bus.
Think Audi A4/A6 FWD vs AWD.
For example, I have a 4WD car with rear-based Torsen centre-diff because I prefer the feel of that to the FWD version. Additional traction in slippery conditions is just a bonus. FWD is fine in small hatchbacks, it's less fun than a decent 4WD car in a large, heavy family bus.
Think Audi A4/A6 FWD vs AWD.
Without driving an AWD Porsche 911 and a 2WD back to back, I don't know what I'd actually prefer. In my head I'd go with the 2WD version as I think it would be a better drive (and that is why I'd be getting a Porsche, not for practicality - I could always get a snotter).
Just one of the many preconceptions about cars I suppose?
Oh and the criticism of the RWD "Heros" seems a bit odd. I doubt these drivers will be pulling crazy angles and putting everyone at risk... Occasionally it's fun to go slightly sideways out of an empty mini roundabout!
Just one of the many preconceptions about cars I suppose?
Oh and the criticism of the RWD "Heros" seems a bit odd. I doubt these drivers will be pulling crazy angles and putting everyone at risk... Occasionally it's fun to go slightly sideways out of an empty mini roundabout!
Rockstar said:
While driving a 116i I encountered the same twitchy effect when it snapped out sideways on a damp patch unexpectedly due to me carrying too much corner speed. Not so much power oversteer more the momentum of the vehicle overcoming available traction. The combination of very grippy tires and weak engine leaving me without the option of using the engine/chassis to control the car and hoping and relying on the DSC/DTC/EBD, etc to save me made my bum go like a rabbit's nose.
I've had the same scenario its not too good when it happens! I've currently got a AWD car running 300BHP its a great point and shoot thing, very forgiving because Ican drive quite well but realistically if I had the same power with RWD I wouldn't be so quick from point to point. I am sure that a 550BHP+ AWD car is great fun because you can most likely balance the car on the throttle depending on the set up but I'd have to agree with the general consensus that AWD has its plus points but its a bit like a porn star with the morals of a nun.
Pulled out of a t junction onto a wide road (Very quiet, no peds or traffic, late at night yadda yadda) floored it and the back stepped around ever so slightly, it was great fun but it only did it because the conditions of the road unsettled the car. Had I been in a RWD car I would have probably ended up in a wall....so thats a plus.
Note: Next RWD car I get I will definitely be going for some driving training to polish my skills for situations where it may be required.
RobM77 said:
Pixelpeep7r said:
In answer to the OP - AWD, half the fun?
Yes. Because fun usually = driving the car on the edge OF GRIP
I would rather be surefooted and quick than sideways and slow.
A very valid point, but bear in mind that fun is defined differently for each of us. I don't regard being on the edge of my ability as fun, at least not in a car on the road or a track with other people on it.Yes. Because fun usually = driving the car on the edge OF GRIP
I would rather be surefooted and quick than sideways and slow.
RWD is such fun because in the best RWD cars (which excludes the majority) they communicate and you can balance them on the edge of grip safely on the road - I'm not talking about drifting I'm talking about altering their line using the accelerator as much as the steering wheel.
V8RX7 said:
RobM77 said:
Pixelpeep7r said:
In answer to the OP - AWD, half the fun?
Yes. Because fun usually = driving the car on the edge OF GRIP
I would rather be surefooted and quick than sideways and slow.
A very valid point, but bear in mind that fun is defined differently for each of us. I don't regard being on the edge of my ability as fun, at least not in a car on the road or a track with other people on it.Yes. Because fun usually = driving the car on the edge OF GRIP
I would rather be surefooted and quick than sideways and slow.
RWD is such fun because in the best RWD cars (which excludes the majority) they communicate and you can balance them on the edge of grip safely on the road - I'm not talking about drifting I'm talking about altering their line using the accelerator as much as the steering wheel.
Lots of fun - RWD and plenty of power for your 'toy'
There.
I have RWD, FWD and 4WD cars; front and mid engined. They're all great in their own way. All you zealous RWD proponents sound like George W Bush. "If you're not with us, you're against us". Nonsense. You can enjoy both skiing on winter snow AND lying on a summer beach, equally, without having to side with one or the other.
However (of course there's a "however"
), if I was forced to live with only one car for the rest of my life and remain only on the roads around me here in the middle of England, my car of choice would be my Integrale. But not particularly because it is 4WD. It's very much the whole package.
However (of course there's a "however"
), if I was forced to live with only one car for the rest of my life and remain only on the roads around me here in the middle of England, my car of choice would be my Integrale. But not particularly because it is 4WD. It's very much the whole package.Behemoth said:
I have RWD, FWD and 4WD cars; front and mid engined. They're all great in their own way. All you zealous RWD proponents sound like George W Bush. "If you're not with us, you're against us". Nonsense. You can enjoy both skiing on winter snow AND lying on a summer beach, equally, without having to side with one or the other.
However (of course there's a "however" ), if I was forced to live with only one car for the rest of my life and remain only on the roads around me here in the middle of England, my car of choice would be my Integrale. But not particularly because it is 4WD. It's very much the whole package.
I too have owned all three, but ended up with a strong preference for RWD (for an enjoyable drive on Tarmac - I'd take 4WD for the loose). I think it's a bit unfair to suggest that everyone should like all three. I for example love beer, wine and spirits, but I don't think there's anything wrong with someone who only likes wine!However (of course there's a "however"
), if I was forced to live with only one car for the rest of my life and remain only on the roads around me here in the middle of England, my car of choice would be my Integrale. But not particularly because it is 4WD. It's very much the whole package.Behemoth said:
...However if I was forced to live with only one car for the rest of my life and remain only on the roads around me here in the middle of England, my car of choice would be my Integrale. But not particularly because it is 4WD. It's very much the whole package.
I am discovering this too tbh, its such a special car the Integrale...the harder it is driven, the more alive (yet secure) it feels with extraordinary feedback, even compared to the delightful RWD 2000 GTV I had (which was RWD and brimming with feel).All depends on the car really. I have had an Haldex equipped golf and, of course, it's 'assured' but not fun to drive; although the competence is at the very least satisfying.
I now have a Carrera 4S and do not notice it is 4WD, and only would if i jumped into a 2S. I never got on with the light front end the 911 has, with it's unconvincing turn in (very different from a chuckable FWD hot hatch). The four wheel drive gives that extra 'bite' and - unknowingly - extra grip too. However, i have still held big slides in just like any other RWD car...
Any car can be set up to be well balanced. However, as with the Golf, i would never call this anything other than competent. You are kidding yourself if you believe it is driving nirvana. Real fun is being on the edge, and there is nothing like balancing oversteer in a RWD car.
I now have a Carrera 4S and do not notice it is 4WD, and only would if i jumped into a 2S. I never got on with the light front end the 911 has, with it's unconvincing turn in (very different from a chuckable FWD hot hatch). The four wheel drive gives that extra 'bite' and - unknowingly - extra grip too. However, i have still held big slides in just like any other RWD car...
Any car can be set up to be well balanced. However, as with the Golf, i would never call this anything other than competent. You are kidding yourself if you believe it is driving nirvana. Real fun is being on the edge, and there is nothing like balancing oversteer in a RWD car.
hondansx said:
I now have a Carrera 4S and do not notice it is 4WD, and only would if i jumped into a 2S. I never got on with the light front end the 911 has, with it's unconvincing turn in (very different from a chuckable FWD hot hatch). The four wheel drive gives that extra 'bite' and - unknowingly - extra grip too. However, i have still held big slides in just like any other RWD car...
There is a simple reason for that, apparently it does pretty much nothing except when traction is lost at the rear which means for most people 99.9% of the time its some extra weight up front to tie the front end down. A friend has a C4S and you're right the steering and turn is very sharp without having to rely on trail braking or any other 'special' skills which the fanatics love.nickfrog said:
Pixelpeep7r said:
I would rather be surefooted and quick than sideways and slow.
I don't understand. The 2wd versions are normally lighter so have more lateral grip surely ?Also, RWD doesn't necessarily imply sideways.
I think the key difference and really the answer to this thread, at least for RWD vs 4WD (I@m not sure about FWD), is in Pixelpeep7r's post above: he is saying that he enjoys progress on the road - the feeling of efficiently transferring the engine's power to forward motion and the feeling of minimising the time between two points. In his more succinct words, he would "rather be surefooted and quick". It's the 996 and 997 Turbo attitude basically. This contrasts sharply with my attitude, whereby I simply enjoy driving and am not really that fussed about progress, so more of a GT3 fan to continue that analogy. I do find speed fun, and I loved racing slicks and wings single seaters for the sensory stimulation and the feeling of speed, but ultimately when it comes down to it I just enjoy driving - I'd rather lap a circuit in an AC Cobra than a WRC car, and I'd probably rather drive across country in a 250SWB than an F12. I suspect the preference for manual and automatic boxes often goes along with which side of this fence you sit, and perhaps electronic aids as well. To take it to the extreme, if outside right now I had a Nissa GTR and an original Lotus Elan, I'd take the Elan every time.
RWD cossie wil said:
Rear drive is fantastic fun, but taking my Supercharged M3 out in the wet is more an exercise of restraint than fun, certainly gets frustrating trying to deploy 550Bhp onto greasy bumpy roads and getting wheelspin into 3 figure speeds,
When did you get that Will?Any more details in a thread somewhere?
I love both.
One of the most fun drives I've ever had was in an RS4 back in Feb on a filthy wet night. I honestly don't think rwd would have been more fun. More frustrating yes, but fun no. I also had a full fat f-type for a couple of days a while ago. I loved it on the drive home but it rained the next day and it became a liability. I just didn't derive any fun from driving it in the wet.
That said at weekends I race an E36 M3 and wouldn't contemplate racing anything that isn't RWD.
So I'd plump for AWD on the road and RWD on the track but I guess it's not that simple if you can only run one car.
One of the most fun drives I've ever had was in an RS4 back in Feb on a filthy wet night. I honestly don't think rwd would have been more fun. More frustrating yes, but fun no. I also had a full fat f-type for a couple of days a while ago. I loved it on the drive home but it rained the next day and it became a liability. I just didn't derive any fun from driving it in the wet.
That said at weekends I race an E36 M3 and wouldn't contemplate racing anything that isn't RWD.
So I'd plump for AWD on the road and RWD on the track but I guess it's not that simple if you can only run one car.
Maldini35 said:
I love both.
One of the most fun drives I've ever had was in an RS4 back in Feb on a filthy wet night. I honestly don't think rwd would have been more fun. More frustrating yes, but fun no. I also had a full fat f-type for a couple of days a while ago. I loved it on the drive home but it rained the next day and it became a liability. I just didn't derive any fun from driving it in the wet.
That said at weekends I race an E36 M3 and wouldn't contemplate racing anything that isn't RWD.
So I'd plump for AWD on the road and RWD on the track but I guess it's not that simple if you can only run one car.
Purely out of interest, how do you find racing in the wet with your preferred RWD layout?One of the most fun drives I've ever had was in an RS4 back in Feb on a filthy wet night. I honestly don't think rwd would have been more fun. More frustrating yes, but fun no. I also had a full fat f-type for a couple of days a while ago. I loved it on the drive home but it rained the next day and it became a liability. I just didn't derive any fun from driving it in the wet.
That said at weekends I race an E36 M3 and wouldn't contemplate racing anything that isn't RWD.
So I'd plump for AWD on the road and RWD on the track but I guess it's not that simple if you can only run one car.
RobM77 said:
A car is always in a drift though, because it'll always develop slip angles to some degree when it's cornering. Ergo the two comments above in bold are one and the same thing. So when I say I prefer the feel of RWD to FWD or 4WD, I am actually referring to the reactions of the car to throttle movements, and whether that happens at 30mph or 60mph in the same corner; that's purely a matter of where you draw the line from a safety point of view and your own skill levels - everyone has a line somewhere, be it an old lady at 30mph or Lewis Hamilton at 60mph, and to ignore that basic principle is more dangerous than to not. To give Lewis H the same line as the old lady is nonsensical. Where we place our line is up to us as responsible drivers.
Personally, I think that driving a car briskly, perhaps close to the slip angle that produces the highest lateral grip, and doing so gently and in full control given appropriate skill levels and an appropriate road situation, is a world apart from flinging a car sideways and then catching it again. I regard the latter as very dangerous and would never do it on a public road with other people about, or to be honest on a race track - I'll keep that for empty skidpans thanks. I've always assumed that by saying "driving a car fast" or "drifting" or "driving a car on the throttle", posters are referring to lurid sideways Chris Harris style action - I just want to clarify that I do not condone or do that on the public road, or even on a race track during a track day (for which you'll be black flagged); in sharp contrast, when I say those things I'm simply referring to the way I drive every single day and have aways done for the circa 300,000 miles of road driving that I've done over the last 20 years. I'm sure I'm not alone either, else everyone would be driving round in 4WD automatics and cars like the GT86, 968CS or Elise would have no purpose at all.
Thanks Rob for explaining the concept of controlling the car's behavior/feel with "the throttle" doesn't necessarily mean drifting Chris Harris video style but rather the way a vehicle reacts to acceleration or deceleration(from engine resistance, engine braking) depending on which wheels these forces are applied to.Personally, I think that driving a car briskly, perhaps close to the slip angle that produces the highest lateral grip, and doing so gently and in full control given appropriate skill levels and an appropriate road situation, is a world apart from flinging a car sideways and then catching it again. I regard the latter as very dangerous and would never do it on a public road with other people about, or to be honest on a race track - I'll keep that for empty skidpans thanks. I've always assumed that by saying "driving a car fast" or "drifting" or "driving a car on the throttle", posters are referring to lurid sideways Chris Harris style action - I just want to clarify that I do not condone or do that on the public road, or even on a race track during a track day (for which you'll be black flagged); in sharp contrast, when I say those things I'm simply referring to the way I drive every single day and have aways done for the circa 300,000 miles of road driving that I've done over the last 20 years. I'm sure I'm not alone either, else everyone would be driving round in 4WD automatics and cars like the GT86, 968CS or Elise would have no purpose at all.
Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 27th November 11:36
I prefer the feel of RWD personally and perhaps on a private/deserted road the ability to enter a corner at slow speed, tighten a vehicles line mid corner and balance, NOT DRIFT, the car's attitude by accelerating appropriately.
As apposed to entering the corner at higher speed and using the brakes, steering inputs to purposely unsettle the rear end entering the corner in a state of "oversteer" and relying on the front of the car having higher slip angles through the corner under acceleration (ie; compensate for said car's inherent understeer) to get around the corner as fast as possible. This is most definitely a satisfying feeling to get right but only applicable on the track!
If I wanted to set the fastest point to point time on a twisty, bumpy mountain pass I'd prefer an all wheel drive pseudo rally car (impreza, etc) to make use of any and all grip available. It wouldn't be in pursuit of fun but rather efficiency.
So are the people bashing those who prefer RWD secretly attempting to better their previous best every time they encounter their personal public road rally stage? If you need all that extra grip on a regular basis maybe you should slow down.
Edited by Rockstar on Friday 28th November 21:47
Nors said:
wab172uk said:
Captainawesome said:
4WD drive is for gays and girls...steer from the rear baby!!! 
And you own and oversteer what exactly?I once had some bloke chatting to me next to an R8 & 370Z. He quite adamantly told me he'd choose the 370Z as he'd be able to powerslide the 370 round roundabouts. Was he some very talented driver? A racing driver? Track day goer? No. He worked in an office, drove a Mondeo, and didn't really drive far apart from work & back.
Probably one of the writes on here pretending to be one of the many drivers with more talent than Lewis Hamilton.
I don't particularly want some knob end testing his skills at drifting coming the other way round the corner at me either.
Another thing, people saying a 4WD car will not stop any quicker in the snow than 2WD, nonsense, when I'm driving down a hill of any kind (especially steeper ones) in the snow and using the gears to slow the car down, 4WD does that much better, and it's no worse when travelling at higher speeds on the open road either.
Edited by Nors on Wednesday 26th November 14:23
Do I enjoy oversteer on empty or wet roundabouts???? Yes I do...just because you guys can't do it doesn't mean that no-body else can.
(Oh, and check my garage you lazy git)
Edited by Captainawesome on Saturday 29th November 09:17
Just to wade in with my 2 penn'orth.
My last car was RWD, my current is AWD. Do I miss the involvement of driving a tuned RWD Nissan 200sx? Hell yes! Apparently it was "unsuitable for the family" though so I was required to get a 4 door. Evo it was then. A '94 Evo 2 in fact (when did you last see one of these trundling around?!)
I like the Mitsubishi: its bonkers quick, practical, can overtake lorries on the A17 in microseconds (well, maybe a smidge longer) and has run faultlessly since I bought it almost 2 years ago. Do I LOVE driving it? Ummmm. No.
Maybe thats because I'm always worried about dinging it and then spending months or silly money, sometimes both, on getting replacement parts (only had to do this once with a suspension arm - my fault entirely). If I was offered a swap with something interesting, I'd give serious consideration to it.
The Nissan, however, I kept for 8 years. I'd never kept a car longer than a year previous to that. That alone should speak volumes about its ability to keep me amused and the plethora of aftermarket parts to continually play with it, even though I ended up putting it back to almost standard with a few little tweaks for tha last year or so before she-who-must-be-obeyed decided it was time for me to change...
For me, my own car is all about the fun factor. I have a co. car to use for work so can have something daft to run around in. I cannot fault the standing acceleration, corner grip, and the general way the Mitsubishi drives and goes but I just found the RWD Nissan to be more fun to drive. It wasn't as quick accelerating (higher top end though), nor was it as stable through the twisties but it was controllable and just plain fun.
I miss that car...
My last car was RWD, my current is AWD. Do I miss the involvement of driving a tuned RWD Nissan 200sx? Hell yes! Apparently it was "unsuitable for the family" though so I was required to get a 4 door. Evo it was then. A '94 Evo 2 in fact (when did you last see one of these trundling around?!)
I like the Mitsubishi: its bonkers quick, practical, can overtake lorries on the A17 in microseconds (well, maybe a smidge longer) and has run faultlessly since I bought it almost 2 years ago. Do I LOVE driving it? Ummmm. No.
Maybe thats because I'm always worried about dinging it and then spending months or silly money, sometimes both, on getting replacement parts (only had to do this once with a suspension arm - my fault entirely). If I was offered a swap with something interesting, I'd give serious consideration to it.
The Nissan, however, I kept for 8 years. I'd never kept a car longer than a year previous to that. That alone should speak volumes about its ability to keep me amused and the plethora of aftermarket parts to continually play with it, even though I ended up putting it back to almost standard with a few little tweaks for tha last year or so before she-who-must-be-obeyed decided it was time for me to change...
For me, my own car is all about the fun factor. I have a co. car to use for work so can have something daft to run around in. I cannot fault the standing acceleration, corner grip, and the general way the Mitsubishi drives and goes but I just found the RWD Nissan to be more fun to drive. It wasn't as quick accelerating (higher top end though), nor was it as stable through the twisties but it was controllable and just plain fun.
I miss that car...
Well, I love rally cars (I just sold my 22B out of a showroom in Australia), and the idea that you cant have fun with 4 driven wheels is not so.
On tarmac, the greater traction means you just need more power. And modern cars have no issue there.
But maybe the problem is that you're going so much faster when things let go, that the consequences can be greater.
I prefer awd, simply because I can get more horsepower to the ground, and make use of every last one of them, instead of sitting there in a cloud of tyre smoke. Its fun, yes, but nothing beats the thrill of being pinned to the seat and catapulted to the horizon. The reason MB et al are doing awd is because they've reached the traction limits, and the only way to compete with ever-more-impressive 0-62 times is with enhanced traction.
And whether you like it or not, the metric is a scientific yardstick that works when comparing cars.
On tarmac, the greater traction means you just need more power. And modern cars have no issue there.
But maybe the problem is that you're going so much faster when things let go, that the consequences can be greater.
I prefer awd, simply because I can get more horsepower to the ground, and make use of every last one of them, instead of sitting there in a cloud of tyre smoke. Its fun, yes, but nothing beats the thrill of being pinned to the seat and catapulted to the horizon. The reason MB et al are doing awd is because they've reached the traction limits, and the only way to compete with ever-more-impressive 0-62 times is with enhanced traction.
And whether you like it or not, the metric is a scientific yardstick that works when comparing cars.
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