RE: All-wheel drive, half the fun? PH Blog
Discussion
big_rob_sydney said:
Well, I love rally cars (I just sold my 22B out of a showroom in Australia), and the idea that you cant have fun with 4 driven wheels is not so.
On tarmac, the greater traction means you just need more power. And modern cars have no issue there.
But maybe the problem is that you're going so much faster when things let go, that the consequences can be greater.
A car reacts completely differently on tarmac to the loose though - the optimum slip angles are very different and the slip/grip curve is a completely different shape. For 50% of any given corner you're only ever off the throttle or on a balanced throttle, so giving the car more power is only half the story. On tarmac, the greater traction means you just need more power. And modern cars have no issue there.
But maybe the problem is that you're going so much faster when things let go, that the consequences can be greater.
On loose surfaces such as gravel, I agree, I'd take 4WD every time and yes, it's great fun. If you drive on the loose or a very slippery surface at speed then 2WD can just be frustrating (I'm not really into driving sideways - I find it fun for five minutes now and then and that's about it). For dry and wet reasonably clean tarmac I'd take 2WD every time, but that is just personal preference. I've not driven a 2WD car with more than 500bhp (or 500bhp/tonne, not that I'm equating them, it's just that's my limit of experience for both), and up to that point I prefer 2WD, but I should imagine that for more powerful cars than that (e.g. a Veyron or Lambo in the wet), 4WD could be good on tarmac.
What the above highlights I guess is that we all get our fun in different ways. In some ways, it seems to be a balance between on the one hand making progress and on the other having fun controlling a car on the limit. The ultimate progress situation would be an infinite amount of grip, which I think we all agree would be dull, and the ultimate slippy slidey would be a powerful 2WD car on ice, which most of us would find dull as well. Somewhere between the two are the various points that we all find fun, and it's very individual. I for example really enjoy driving on the public road in the wet, but a race track with lots of rubber down in the wet I find frustrating - it's a fine line.
big_rob_sydney said:
Well, I love rally cars (I just sold my 22B out of a showroom in Australia), and the idea that you cant have fun with 4 driven wheels is not so.
On tarmac, the greater traction means you just need more power. And modern cars have no issue there.
But maybe the problem is that you're going so much faster when things let go, that the consequences can be greater.
I prefer awd, simply because I can get more horsepower to the ground, and make use of every last one of them, instead of sitting there in a cloud of tyre smoke. Its fun, yes, but nothing beats the thrill of being pinned to the seat and catapulted to the horizon. The reason MB et al are doing awd is because they've reached the traction limits, and the only way to compete with ever-more-impressive 0-62 times is with enhanced traction.
Agreed, and available long./lat. grip is used more efficiently in the twisties as well. To be fair though, the traction issue can be mitgated quite a bit with proper rear tires, but the problem is that they need to be absurdly large for some of today's road cars with big power. Even my C350 CDI has no problems breaking traction with 255s on the rear. On tarmac, the greater traction means you just need more power. And modern cars have no issue there.
But maybe the problem is that you're going so much faster when things let go, that the consequences can be greater.
I prefer awd, simply because I can get more horsepower to the ground, and make use of every last one of them, instead of sitting there in a cloud of tyre smoke. Its fun, yes, but nothing beats the thrill of being pinned to the seat and catapulted to the horizon. The reason MB et al are doing awd is because they've reached the traction limits, and the only way to compete with ever-more-impressive 0-62 times is with enhanced traction.
RobM77 said:
Purely out of interest, how do you find racing in the wet with your preferred RWD layout?
At times both fun and frustrating.I used to love racing in the wet in a low powered RWD car (an old E30 320 in Production BMW). Power oversteer at walking speed was great fun. But moving up to an M3 has made it all a bit more serious. Bigger speeds, more potential for bigger accidents etc.
It's still fun but a little bit scary, especially as I have to pay any repair bills.
On the road I just prefer to be a little less nervous.
Remember when FWD, AWD or 4x4 was badge reserved for tall wobbly things like Lands Rovers?
Nowadays, all companies are on the bandwagon padding out any model to make more money. The remotest hint of 'Added safety' or 'Faster' will always attract a certain audience.
With the 'Safety/Faster' argument, there are too many variables; driver ability, car, surface, etc. etc. From an engineering standpoint, it's nonsensical.
General daily driving has become less 'fun' as more and more control systems are integrated into our beloved chariots. This, coupled with the fact that we live in a world where everything travels faster than the speed of light (except traffic!) and the roads are more congested strips a lot of fun back.
To a larger extent we have become 'distanced' from fun that could be had on the cheap with a 2WD car. And it was all done at a much slower pace!
Just look at the incredible speeds we can travel in the wet, on a track now. Wind the clock back just 30 years, and you'd be knackered after doing a lap or two in the rain!
Going back to fun though...
I can liken 'Fun' to a walk along coastal path in the peeing rain with the missus.
She's wearing worn out slippery trainers.
Immaturely, I would find it fun to walk relatively close to the edge with her nearest the edge, gesturing to push her over the edge to no return, but not doing so of course!
However, some find it fun to do the very same walk with the missus now shod in good hiking boots, knowing fore well that if they were to jokingly push her over the edge, and she did go, then inevitably she will climb back - I don't see the fun in that.
Similarly our levels of fun differ with driving. Comprendé?
My experience of AWD in the rain; I have tried an R8 round Silverstone in the wet. Under-steered initially like a pig and I didn't like the surefootedness or the feel mid corner.
Afterwards, it made me feel that I was a better and thus more confident driver than that of my real capabilities. As such I drove faster.
In comparison, I then jumped into a 911 Turbo, same track. I screamed like a girl - I likened this to fun! The grin was stupidly wide! I had more respect for that car because of the fact I knew all four weren't driving and I was close to eating concrete.
I may have been a wee bit slower, but it's about fun isn't it?
2WD puts you back at the point of pushing your missus over the edge in her trainers. You know the edge is there, you don't need to push, but be ready to have a handful of opposite lock when/if it does go - There's the fun for me...the "will it?", "won't it?" bit.
So evolution has turned us into a bunch of namby-pambies that need to have every wheel driving in order to go fast, safely?... unfortunalty marketing would have you believe that.
As time goes by, more and more people are accepting of the fact that control is taken away from the driver, AWD is just a small facet of that erosion - I guess relative fun levels then have to change to accommodate the autonomous nature that driving is becoming.
Thankfully the likes of addicts that thrive on fun; Aerial, Caterham et al, don't seem to be rolling out any AWD just yet ;-)
I would quite happily take the new F-Type V8R AWD out for a spin, and be proved wrong over the 2WD model, somehow though I don't think it will be the essence of a real sportscar...we will see.
Nowadays, all companies are on the bandwagon padding out any model to make more money. The remotest hint of 'Added safety' or 'Faster' will always attract a certain audience.
With the 'Safety/Faster' argument, there are too many variables; driver ability, car, surface, etc. etc. From an engineering standpoint, it's nonsensical.
General daily driving has become less 'fun' as more and more control systems are integrated into our beloved chariots. This, coupled with the fact that we live in a world where everything travels faster than the speed of light (except traffic!) and the roads are more congested strips a lot of fun back.
To a larger extent we have become 'distanced' from fun that could be had on the cheap with a 2WD car. And it was all done at a much slower pace!
Just look at the incredible speeds we can travel in the wet, on a track now. Wind the clock back just 30 years, and you'd be knackered after doing a lap or two in the rain!
Going back to fun though...
I can liken 'Fun' to a walk along coastal path in the peeing rain with the missus.
She's wearing worn out slippery trainers.
Immaturely, I would find it fun to walk relatively close to the edge with her nearest the edge, gesturing to push her over the edge to no return, but not doing so of course!
However, some find it fun to do the very same walk with the missus now shod in good hiking boots, knowing fore well that if they were to jokingly push her over the edge, and she did go, then inevitably she will climb back - I don't see the fun in that.
Similarly our levels of fun differ with driving. Comprendé?
My experience of AWD in the rain; I have tried an R8 round Silverstone in the wet. Under-steered initially like a pig and I didn't like the surefootedness or the feel mid corner.
Afterwards, it made me feel that I was a better and thus more confident driver than that of my real capabilities. As such I drove faster.
In comparison, I then jumped into a 911 Turbo, same track. I screamed like a girl - I likened this to fun! The grin was stupidly wide! I had more respect for that car because of the fact I knew all four weren't driving and I was close to eating concrete.
I may have been a wee bit slower, but it's about fun isn't it?
2WD puts you back at the point of pushing your missus over the edge in her trainers. You know the edge is there, you don't need to push, but be ready to have a handful of opposite lock when/if it does go - There's the fun for me...the "will it?", "won't it?" bit.
So evolution has turned us into a bunch of namby-pambies that need to have every wheel driving in order to go fast, safely?... unfortunalty marketing would have you believe that.
As time goes by, more and more people are accepting of the fact that control is taken away from the driver, AWD is just a small facet of that erosion - I guess relative fun levels then have to change to accommodate the autonomous nature that driving is becoming.
Thankfully the likes of addicts that thrive on fun; Aerial, Caterham et al, don't seem to be rolling out any AWD just yet ;-)
I would quite happily take the new F-Type V8R AWD out for a spin, and be proved wrong over the 2WD model, somehow though I don't think it will be the essence of a real sportscar...we will see.
Tel said:
Remember when FWD, AWD or 4x4 was badge reserved for tall wobbly things like Lands Rovers?
Nowadays, all companies are on the bandwagon padding out any model to make more money.
It's not that new, companies went 4x4 nuts in the Eighties too, but it didn't last.Nowadays, all companies are on the bandwagon padding out any model to make more money.
Ford Sierra, Citroen BX, Pug 405, Alfa 33, I'm sure there must be more. Also BMW have selling 4x4 models in Europe for a long time just not in the UK.
I think the problem is/was is that people want a car that looks like a 4x4 (SUV style) rather than run of the mill cars with 4x4.
Tel said:
Remember when FWD, AWD or 4x4 was badge reserved for tall wobbly things like Lands Rovers?
Nowadays, all companies are on the bandwagon padding out any model to make more money. The remotest hint of 'Added safety' or 'Faster' will always attract a certain audience.
With the 'Safety/Faster' argument, there are too many variables; driver ability, car, surface, etc. etc. From an engineering standpoint, it's nonsensical.
General daily driving has become less 'fun' as more and more control systems are integrated into our beloved chariots. This, coupled with the fact that we live in a world where everything travels faster than the speed of light (except traffic!) and the roads are more congested strips a lot of fun back.
To a larger extent we have become 'distanced' from fun that could be had on the cheap with a 2WD car. And it was all done at a much slower pace!
Just look at the incredible speeds we can travel in the wet, on a track now. Wind the clock back just 30 years, and you'd be knackered after doing a lap or two in the rain!
Going back to fun though...
I can liken 'Fun' to a walk along coastal path in the peeing rain with the missus.
She's wearing worn out slippery trainers.
Immaturely, I would find it fun to walk relatively close to the edge with her nearest the edge, gesturing to push her over the edge to no return, but not doing so of course!
However, some find it fun to do the very same walk with the missus now shod in good hiking boots, knowing fore well that if they were to jokingly push her over the edge, and she did go, then inevitably she will climb back - I don't see the fun in that.
Similarly our levels of fun differ with driving. Comprendé?
My experience of AWD in the rain; I have tried an R8 round Silverstone in the wet. Under-steered initially like a pig and I didn't like the surefootedness or the feel mid corner.
Afterwards, it made me feel that I was a better and thus more confident driver than that of my real capabilities. As such I drove faster.
In comparison, I then jumped into a 911 Turbo, same track. I screamed like a girl - I likened this to fun! The grin was stupidly wide! I had more respect for that car because of the fact I knew all four weren't driving and I was close to eating concrete.
I may have been a wee bit slower, but it's about fun isn't it?
2WD puts you back at the point of pushing your missus over the edge in her trainers. You know the edge is there, you don't need to push, but be ready to have a handful of opposite lock when/if it does go - There's the fun for me...the "will it?", "won't it?" bit.
So evolution has turned us into a bunch of namby-pambies that need to have every wheel driving in order to go fast, safely?... unfortunalty marketing would have you believe that.
As time goes by, more and more people are accepting of the fact that control is taken away from the driver, AWD is just a small facet of that erosion - I guess relative fun levels then have to change to accommodate the autonomous nature that driving is becoming.
Thankfully the likes of addicts that thrive on fun; Aerial, Caterham et al, don't seem to be rolling out any AWD just yet ;-)
I would quite happily take the new F-Type V8R AWD out for a spin, and be proved wrong over the 2WD model, somehow though I don't think it will be the essence of a real sportscar...we will see.
Great post, but a (993 & later) 911 turbo is 4 wheel drive Nowadays, all companies are on the bandwagon padding out any model to make more money. The remotest hint of 'Added safety' or 'Faster' will always attract a certain audience.
With the 'Safety/Faster' argument, there are too many variables; driver ability, car, surface, etc. etc. From an engineering standpoint, it's nonsensical.
General daily driving has become less 'fun' as more and more control systems are integrated into our beloved chariots. This, coupled with the fact that we live in a world where everything travels faster than the speed of light (except traffic!) and the roads are more congested strips a lot of fun back.
To a larger extent we have become 'distanced' from fun that could be had on the cheap with a 2WD car. And it was all done at a much slower pace!
Just look at the incredible speeds we can travel in the wet, on a track now. Wind the clock back just 30 years, and you'd be knackered after doing a lap or two in the rain!
Going back to fun though...
I can liken 'Fun' to a walk along coastal path in the peeing rain with the missus.
She's wearing worn out slippery trainers.
Immaturely, I would find it fun to walk relatively close to the edge with her nearest the edge, gesturing to push her over the edge to no return, but not doing so of course!
However, some find it fun to do the very same walk with the missus now shod in good hiking boots, knowing fore well that if they were to jokingly push her over the edge, and she did go, then inevitably she will climb back - I don't see the fun in that.
Similarly our levels of fun differ with driving. Comprendé?
My experience of AWD in the rain; I have tried an R8 round Silverstone in the wet. Under-steered initially like a pig and I didn't like the surefootedness or the feel mid corner.
Afterwards, it made me feel that I was a better and thus more confident driver than that of my real capabilities. As such I drove faster.
In comparison, I then jumped into a 911 Turbo, same track. I screamed like a girl - I likened this to fun! The grin was stupidly wide! I had more respect for that car because of the fact I knew all four weren't driving and I was close to eating concrete.
I may have been a wee bit slower, but it's about fun isn't it?
2WD puts you back at the point of pushing your missus over the edge in her trainers. You know the edge is there, you don't need to push, but be ready to have a handful of opposite lock when/if it does go - There's the fun for me...the "will it?", "won't it?" bit.
So evolution has turned us into a bunch of namby-pambies that need to have every wheel driving in order to go fast, safely?... unfortunalty marketing would have you believe that.
As time goes by, more and more people are accepting of the fact that control is taken away from the driver, AWD is just a small facet of that erosion - I guess relative fun levels then have to change to accommodate the autonomous nature that driving is becoming.
Thankfully the likes of addicts that thrive on fun; Aerial, Caterham et al, don't seem to be rolling out any AWD just yet ;-)
I would quite happily take the new F-Type V8R AWD out for a spin, and be proved wrong over the 2WD model, somehow though I don't think it will be the essence of a real sportscar...we will see.
Well spotted, I kicked myself for even mentioning the manufacturers now as I'm not that genned up on specific models etc as you have worked out!
The Porker was from 1998, used soley for track experience days I believe.
I'm still convinced it was only a rear wheel drive, however I will bow to your better judgement and give myself a pinch...I would seriously consider one if they weren't so common!
The Porker was from 1998, used soley for track experience days I believe.
I'm still convinced it was only a rear wheel drive, however I will bow to your better judgement and give myself a pinch...I would seriously consider one if they weren't so common!
Tel said:
Well spotted, I kicked myself for even mentioning the manufacturers now as I'm not that genned up on specific models etc as you have worked out!
The Porker was from 1998, used soley for track experience days I believe.
I'm still convinced it was only a rear wheel drive, however I will bow to your better judgement and give myself a pinch...I would seriously consider one if they weren't so common!
The Porker was from 1998, used soley for track experience days I believe.
I'm still convinced it was only a rear wheel drive, however I will bow to your better judgement and give myself a pinch...I would seriously consider one if they weren't so common!
Surely being common makes them cheaper and easier to find on the secondhand market?RobM77 said:
Tel said:
Well spotted, I kicked myself for even mentioning the manufacturers now as I'm not that genned up on specific models etc as you have worked out!
The Porker was from 1998, used soley for track experience days I believe.
I'm still convinced it was only a rear wheel drive, however I will bow to your better judgement and give myself a pinch...I would seriously consider one if they weren't so common!
The Porker was from 1998, used soley for track experience days I believe.
I'm still convinced it was only a rear wheel drive, however I will bow to your better judgement and give myself a pinch...I would seriously consider one if they weren't so common!
Surely being common makes them cheaper and easier to find on the secondhand market?That's why there are so many threads from people looking for something that does not have BMW M3 written on the back, for example.
Tel said:
Well spotted, I kicked myself for even mentioning the manufacturers now as I'm not that genned up on specific models etc as you have worked out!
The Porker was from 1998, used soley for track experience days I believe.
I'm still convinced it was only a rear wheel drive, however I will bow to your better judgement and give myself a pinch...I would seriously consider one if they weren't so common!
Also worth mentioning that the "understeery" R8 is also practically a RWD car. The Porker was from 1998, used soley for track experience days I believe.
I'm still convinced it was only a rear wheel drive, however I will bow to your better judgement and give myself a pinch...I would seriously consider one if they weren't so common!
jamieduff1981 said:
RobM77 said:
Tel said:
Well spotted, I kicked myself for even mentioning the manufacturers now as I'm not that genned up on specific models etc as you have worked out!
The Porker was from 1998, used soley for track experience days I believe.
I'm still convinced it was only a rear wheel drive, however I will bow to your better judgement and give myself a pinch...I would seriously consider one if they weren't so common!
The Porker was from 1998, used soley for track experience days I believe.
I'm still convinced it was only a rear wheel drive, however I will bow to your better judgement and give myself a pinch...I would seriously consider one if they weren't so common!
Surely being common makes them cheaper and easier to find on the secondhand market?That's why there are so many threads from people looking for something that does not have BMW M3 written on the back, for example.
Hear hear
I do agree some cars carry a certain stigma about them, the M3 and 911 are the two that immediately spring to mind. If and when I can afford to I will no doubt have a very small twinge of vanity/insecurity wrt what petty people's perceptions will be but quickly get over it and buy a 911 anyway(though preferably in a low key colour;) ), it will be for my personal pleasure.
Sometimes certain cars are relatively common and perceived to be the obvious choice because they were/are the best overall vehicle of their type and as a result sold well. I've never bought any car as something to pose in so if some people think "look at that tosser in his flash sheep mentality car" so be it.
As a car enthusiast if you allow reverse badge snobbery to affect your choice of transport you may well be depriving yourself of many very good cars.
I do agree some cars carry a certain stigma about them, the M3 and 911 are the two that immediately spring to mind. If and when I can afford to I will no doubt have a very small twinge of vanity/insecurity wrt what petty people's perceptions will be but quickly get over it and buy a 911 anyway(though preferably in a low key colour;) ), it will be for my personal pleasure.
Sometimes certain cars are relatively common and perceived to be the obvious choice because they were/are the best overall vehicle of their type and as a result sold well. I've never bought any car as something to pose in so if some people think "look at that tosser in his flash sheep mentality car" so be it.
As a car enthusiast if you allow reverse badge snobbery to affect your choice of transport you may well be depriving yourself of many very good cars.
Rockstar said:
Hear hear
I do agree some cars carry a certain stigma about them, the M3 and 911 are the two that immediately spring to mind. If and when I can afford to I will no doubt have a very small twinge of vanity/insecurity wrt what petty people's perceptions will be but quickly get over it and buy a 911 anyway(though preferably in a low key colour;) ), it will be for my personal pleasure.
Sometimes certain cars are relatively common and perceived to be the obvious choice because they were/are the best overall vehicle of their type and as a result sold well. I've never bought any car as something to pose in so if some people think "look at that tosser in his flash sheep mentality car" so be it.
As a car enthusiast if you allow reverse badge snobbery to affect your choice of transport you may well be depriving yourself of many very good cars.
I might as well kill myself now then as I own a 996 turbo and a supercharged E46 M3 I do agree some cars carry a certain stigma about them, the M3 and 911 are the two that immediately spring to mind. If and when I can afford to I will no doubt have a very small twinge of vanity/insecurity wrt what petty people's perceptions will be but quickly get over it and buy a 911 anyway(though preferably in a low key colour;) ), it will be for my personal pleasure.
Sometimes certain cars are relatively common and perceived to be the obvious choice because they were/are the best overall vehicle of their type and as a result sold well. I've never bought any car as something to pose in so if some people think "look at that tosser in his flash sheep mentality car" so be it.
As a car enthusiast if you allow reverse badge snobbery to affect your choice of transport you may well be depriving yourself of many very good cars.
& yes, I know, worst "I own a...." ever
The whole BMW snobbery thing pisses me right off. They're not the best built cars out there, they hold their value and are expensive secondhand, and everyone on the road treats you like s
t. I put up with all of that because I'm passionately enthusiastic about having a well balanced rear drive car and the last thing I need is people reacting like they do when I say what I drive. As someone who's raced all his adult life and loves driving, what do they expect me to drive?!! A FWD hatchback with fancy alloys?! As above, I also know loads of car enthusiasts who love driving and would adore a FE/RWD car with a n/a straight six up front, but snobbery prevents them owning one - that's such a shame. PH should be a refuge from such ridiculous prejudice and snobbery, but most of the time it just echoes the opinions of the non-petrolhead public...RWD cossie wil said:
I might as well kill myself now then as I own a 996 turbo and a supercharged E46 M3
& yes, I know, worst "I own a...." ever
& yes, I know, worst "I own a...." ever
Shockingly irresponsible...
. A new hire purchase Golf TDi has far better gas mileage than those, what are you doing man driving cars you like for fun disregarding potential prejudice against them!There is hope for PH after all.
The occasional frustration of not being given a gap to join traffic at intersections is far outweighed by the smile on my face while driving over a familiar mountain pass though.
Edited by Rockstar on Saturday 6th December 01:40
Maldini35 said:
I love both.
One of the most fun drives I've ever had was in an RS4 back in Feb on a filthy wet night. I honestly don't think rwd would have been more fun. More frustrating yes, but fun no. I also had a full fat f-type for a couple of days a while ago. I loved it on the drive home but it rained the next day and it became a liability. I just didn't derive any fun from driving it in the wet.
That said at weekends I race an E36 M3 and wouldn't contemplate racing anything that isn't RWD.
So I'd plump for AWD on the road and RWD on the track but I guess it's not that simple if you can only run one car.
^^^^ This. I have an RS4. For me, it's incredibly capable as an all-rounder, point-to-point car and a great drive, but if I wanted to do track days I'd have RWD.One of the most fun drives I've ever had was in an RS4 back in Feb on a filthy wet night. I honestly don't think rwd would have been more fun. More frustrating yes, but fun no. I also had a full fat f-type for a couple of days a while ago. I loved it on the drive home but it rained the next day and it became a liability. I just didn't derive any fun from driving it in the wet.
That said at weekends I race an E36 M3 and wouldn't contemplate racing anything that isn't RWD.
So I'd plump for AWD on the road and RWD on the track but I guess it's not that simple if you can only run one car.
nickfrog said:
That's a tad harsh on scherzkeks.
Far from it!Regarding badges etc; It doesn't even figure in my mind - It goes back to the OP's topic of FUN.
If it was a RWD Zastava with 500bhp I'd buy it...Mmmm, maybe not :-)
I had always had my heart set on a Porsche 911, even as a younger kid. After numerous test drives of cars in that category I loved the accuracy and Point and shoot of the C4S, but alas I ended up with a 2WD Jag with 500Hp for the fun factor. It's not as accurate on the road, nor gives the feedback in the same manner.
The fact that it is British like myself, and we have won Footie matches and 2 World wars had no bearing on the choice...honestly ;-)
Ideally we would have a 'sportscar' that has manually switchable 4WD or 2WD without any of the physical penalties of the extra 2 wheels when engaged for a bit of mud plugging.
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