RE: All-wheel drive, half the fun? PH Blog
Discussion
JaseB said:
g7jhp said:
yonex said:
I've never owned a 4WD 'car' but I can't see it would be more 'fun' but probably more 'efficient'.
I own a 996 turbo, it's certainly more fun and more efficient in the wet. In the dry I'd rather have a Caterham!The 996 turbo is so much fun to drive in the wet as it inspired confidence, yet it's steering is still razor sharp compared to 99% of cars and the power is addictive. It's impressive in the dry but not as fun.
Sometimes you just want to get into your car and know it's going to get you to your destination quickly, effotlessly without drama. In the wet that's the 996 turbo.
4WD is certainly less fun for a decent driver so I wouldn't have a toy with 4WD (unless I was green laning)
Last winter I heroically struggled in the ice and snow with a 340bhp RX7 to get the kids to school - 7 miles of country lanes, I struggled to keep up with a Golf TDi on the way back, every time I accelerated I was going sideways.
This year I have a 275bhp Forester - it isn't fun - but it's very easy to get from A-B in any weather and overtaking dawdlers with ease.
(Needless to say I still have the RX7 and Supercharged MX5 for the better days)
Last winter I heroically struggled in the ice and snow with a 340bhp RX7 to get the kids to school - 7 miles of country lanes, I struggled to keep up with a Golf TDi on the way back, every time I accelerated I was going sideways.
This year I have a 275bhp Forester - it isn't fun - but it's very easy to get from A-B in any weather and overtaking dawdlers with ease.
(Needless to say I still have the RX7 and Supercharged MX5 for the better days)
I find 4wd is much more forgivable, so on a public road it's twice the fun.
Previously I had a BMW 123d and I couldn't pedal the thing at all, it took 16months of experience before I could get the rear the check out in a completely controllable manner at anything over 50mph. My 106 GTI was a lot more fun as the chassis was lively, with the interior removed the rear would come around whilst under partial acceleration at ~45mph so you can imagine how loose it was under neutral steer or braking. The Evo is ridiculous, I can make 25-30degree slip angles at reasonable speeds with aggressive steering inputs whilst having complete confidence.
For a track I can see why RWD would be perfect, but on public roads 4wd has the largest margins for error IMO and so is the best for safe controllable fun.
I'd like to try an E46 M3 on a public road, I understand the chassis is very adjustable as is the throttle, this may change my opinion when compared to the twitchy 123d which had turbo lag and a comparably small power band.
Previously I had a BMW 123d and I couldn't pedal the thing at all, it took 16months of experience before I could get the rear the check out in a completely controllable manner at anything over 50mph. My 106 GTI was a lot more fun as the chassis was lively, with the interior removed the rear would come around whilst under partial acceleration at ~45mph so you can imagine how loose it was under neutral steer or braking. The Evo is ridiculous, I can make 25-30degree slip angles at reasonable speeds with aggressive steering inputs whilst having complete confidence.
For a track I can see why RWD would be perfect, but on public roads 4wd has the largest margins for error IMO and so is the best for safe controllable fun.
I'd like to try an E46 M3 on a public road, I understand the chassis is very adjustable as is the throttle, this may change my opinion when compared to the twitchy 123d which had turbo lag and a comparably small power band.
leon9191 said:
I find it odd that people state safety as a factor in 4wds, the fact that you have more traction and therefore go quicker in bad conditions e.g. snow doesn't mean you can stop ... any quicker
This is the single most important comment so far. Back when I had a 4wd Audi, it always felt very secure in slippery conditions - until I touched the brakes. Had to keep reminding myself not to fall for the sense of security engendered while accelerating and steering because as soon as you hit the middle pedal, you're in the same boat as everyone else.I now drive a rwd car. The winter tyres went on a couple of days ago. Great sense of security on cold, wet roads yesterday and crucially, that carries through to braking as well.
The 911 is a bad example of the advantages of 4wd due to it having outstanding traction in 2wd form,although having back to back tested a c2s and c4s on a soaking wet day, the advantage the 4wd has is remarkable.
Where I think it has a huge advanatage is with front engined rwd cars with say 500bhp + ,not only in the wet but in the dry ,I currently have such a car,and although I love it to bits I wouldnt have that configuration again ,when I press the throttle I want the car to go where I am pointing it not for the back to step out in the dry in 3rd gear in a straight line,or not having the traction controls reducing all the power to make sure you stay straight.(and my car has quite an unintrusive traction system)
Where I think it has a huge advanatage is with front engined rwd cars with say 500bhp + ,not only in the wet but in the dry ,I currently have such a car,and although I love it to bits I wouldnt have that configuration again ,when I press the throttle I want the car to go where I am pointing it not for the back to step out in the dry in 3rd gear in a straight line,or not having the traction controls reducing all the power to make sure you stay straight.(and my car has quite an unintrusive traction system)
Kawasicki said:
g7jhp said:
Sometimes you just want to get into your car and know it's going to get you to your destination quickly, effortlessly without drama.
No, that's not something I want.
Fun on the road for me is not really about oversteer and being on the edge. I had a Monaro VXR and I loved it in the dry and also sometimes enjoyed the challenge of driving it quickly in the wet but the back would step out at pretty modest speeds at times and I remember one particular day on the M40 with about an inch or so of slush on the surface I was the slowest vehicle on the road - when I just wanted to get somewhere it could be a pain.
I now have a 996 C4s but also a broken left leg so I haven't had the chance to try it in crap conditions yet...hopefully soon!
I now have a 996 C4s but also a broken left leg so I haven't had the chance to try it in crap conditions yet...hopefully soon!
Most people I've spoken to lust over a GTR rather than my GTS-T RWD version.
I think it would very much depend on whether you are using your car as a daily or not. If it's just a fun car then RWD is fine, however having AWD for a daily seems to make more sense, even my old Jag S-Type lost it's monocle once or twice when I was pushing for acceleration too soon. Not so good on the hum-drum commute to work.
It's going to be interesting to see how Jag does with the AWD F-type given that alot of PH will say RWD is best but then AWD 911's are massively popular.
I think it would very much depend on whether you are using your car as a daily or not. If it's just a fun car then RWD is fine, however having AWD for a daily seems to make more sense, even my old Jag S-Type lost it's monocle once or twice when I was pushing for acceleration too soon. Not so good on the hum-drum commute to work.
It's going to be interesting to see how Jag does with the AWD F-type given that alot of PH will say RWD is best but then AWD 911's are massively popular.
Having owned several AWD cars now, as well as 1 RWD Sports car, I can say that I prefer AWD to RWD.
For those of us who aren't `Oversteer hero's` (Or pretent to be on car Forums) AWD (for me) is the perfect mix of all weather usability.
My current weekend car is am R8 (much hated on here) but it was designed with AWD from the start, I can used all the power all of the time. Where bumpy roads would have the traction control flickering in the RWD car, the R8 just goes.
Each to there own, but I'd 9 times out of 10, go for AWD over RWD. Unless I was able to afford both an R8 and a GT3? Sadly not though.
For those of us who aren't `Oversteer hero's` (Or pretent to be on car Forums) AWD (for me) is the perfect mix of all weather usability.
My current weekend car is am R8 (much hated on here) but it was designed with AWD from the start, I can used all the power all of the time. Where bumpy roads would have the traction control flickering in the RWD car, the R8 just goes.
Each to there own, but I'd 9 times out of 10, go for AWD over RWD. Unless I was able to afford both an R8 and a GT3? Sadly not though.
After the horror winter we had 4 years ago - and two useless, stuck Focuses (admittedly on not very good 'summer' tyres) - I was an immediate convert to 4WD. Cue purchase of an A4 Quattro with a set of winter wheels / tyres for the family wagon, and an R32 for me. The A4 was great to drive - albeit the only 'fun' to be had was in the sense of total traction. Since replaced with a Q5, 4WD (and appropriate tyres) definitely has an appeal for the family car.
But the 'fun' car - the R32 - wasn't actually that fun, once the novelty of a multi-cylnder engine and paddleshift box (a first for me on both counts) wore off. Replaced the Golf wih a manual Audi S3, which was a mistake.
Ran both the Golf and the S3 on winter tyres when appropriate, and they were secure / quick point-to-point... but not fun.
Replaced the S3 with a Mini Cooper S which can struggle for traction in slippery conditions - but is much more fun and adjustable when driving at sensible speeds. Again, winter tyres on at the moment - which just means less grip and more fun, given the unseasonably mild weather we're having in Edinburgh just now.
When I was a kid, the first car I remember obsessing over was the then-new 964 Carrera 4. Ever since then, I've always had a notion that my favoured Porsche would be a C4.
But - just bought my first Porsche (yay!) - and it's a Cayman. No option of 4WD there, obviously. But if I'd bought a 996 or 997 instead (rather than buying a Cayman and keeping the Mini for school runs etc.) it'd have been a Carrera 2 - based on my experiences of late. WIll be runnning the Cayman on winter rubber until the spring, though.
But the 'fun' car - the R32 - wasn't actually that fun, once the novelty of a multi-cylnder engine and paddleshift box (a first for me on both counts) wore off. Replaced the Golf wih a manual Audi S3, which was a mistake.
Ran both the Golf and the S3 on winter tyres when appropriate, and they were secure / quick point-to-point... but not fun.
Replaced the S3 with a Mini Cooper S which can struggle for traction in slippery conditions - but is much more fun and adjustable when driving at sensible speeds. Again, winter tyres on at the moment - which just means less grip and more fun, given the unseasonably mild weather we're having in Edinburgh just now.
When I was a kid, the first car I remember obsessing over was the then-new 964 Carrera 4. Ever since then, I've always had a notion that my favoured Porsche would be a C4.
But - just bought my first Porsche (yay!) - and it's a Cayman. No option of 4WD there, obviously. But if I'd bought a 996 or 997 instead (rather than buying a Cayman and keeping the Mini for school runs etc.) it'd have been a Carrera 2 - based on my experiences of late. WIll be runnning the Cayman on winter rubber until the spring, though.
I've got an Impreza Wagon as my daily and a MK3 MR2 Roadster as the toy currently. The RWD MR2 is a hoot but not fast enough for me.
I just love spinning the rears up a little when pulling out of certain junctions
But for just one car to do both jobs, I would want the 4WD. I'm not saying I won't own a single RWD car again, as there are still lots I'd love to have. But I do like knowing that weather won't stop me any time I want to go out.
Where you live and the roads you are surrounded by is a big factor in this sort of choice too.
Winters are going on the Scooby this weekend.....
I just love spinning the rears up a little when pulling out of certain junctions
But for just one car to do both jobs, I would want the 4WD. I'm not saying I won't own a single RWD car again, as there are still lots I'd love to have. But I do like knowing that weather won't stop me any time I want to go out.
Where you live and the roads you are surrounded by is a big factor in this sort of choice too.
Winters are going on the Scooby this weekend.....
g7jhp said:
Kawasicki said:
g7jhp said:
Sometimes you just want to get into your car and know it's going to get you to your destination quickly, effortlessly without drama.
No, that's not something I want.AWD is rarely something you WANT.
But it can be practical and useful for mumsnet duties, for sure.
Helicopter123 said:
The argument for 4wd in winter is a complete red herring. A 2wd car with winter tyres is a far better bet and will get you further, and then help you stop when you arrive.
I can only laugh when this comment roles out again and again. Perhaps in flatter conditions where steeper inclines are not involved, 2WD with winter tyres can prevail, but to imply they are a far better bet? 
I live in the central highlands of Scotland where the snow tends to get a fair bit deeper than southern parts and the hill turning on my street (where you have to turn and climb at the same time)is a complete waste of time with anything RWD. Try asking my brother in law with his BMW complete with winter tyres and bags of sand in the boot, still no chance climbing it!!
Captainawesome said:
4WD drive is for gays and girls...steer from the rear baby!!!
And you own and oversteer what exactly?I once had some bloke chatting to me next to an R8 & 370Z. He quite adamantly told me he'd choose the 370Z as he'd be able to powerslide the 370 round roundabouts. Was he some very talented driver? A racing driver? Track day goer? No. He worked in an office, drove a Mondeo, and didn't really drive far apart from work & back.
Probably one of the writes on here pretending to be one of the many drivers with more talent than Lewis Hamilton.
TurboHatchback said:
Back in the real world and a UK winter, what is the point in having lots of power if you can't deploy it at low speeds in bad conditions? Pulling into busy traffic, cornering on tight little roads with no room for slip etc, 4wd makes absolute sense in a powerful car.
Do you live in a harsher climate UK than I do?Where is this real world I keep hearing about?
If you can't join a road with 2WD there isn't a gap to pull into.
I'd hate to meet you coming the other way on the sorts of tight little roads I drive daily because if there isn't enough room for error to drive RWD then you sure and s
t won't be able to stop when you meet someone coming the other way.My housemate has a 997 911 C4S and I have joked to him a good few times about how a proper 911 should be RWD. Then I drove a 991 C4 and a 991 C back to back on some local roads and in mixed wet/dry conditions I found myself preferring the 4WD version. Even on the dry bits I found I preferred the 'feel' of it. No doubt this makes me a useless driver or whatever, but quite genuinely if I had had to buy one or other after the drive that day I'd have taken the Carerra 4. Maybe I should add that I'm not the type of person who chooses to try and drift every roundabout - I've done sideways plenty times but I know I haven't the skill to pull of big drifts everywhere I go.... and tyres are expensive!
And for some balance I've just sold a 4WD Impreza and replaced it with a RWD Cayman R.
I drive the 911 C4S I mention above regularly and the way the 4S can set off in wet conditions is fantastic and when traffic is busy and you need to make a smartish exit from a junction or to join a roundabout it can be nice to know you can give it some beans and have a no drama get away... The Cayman cannot pull off as quickly in the same conditions. Necessary, no. Nice at times, yes.
And for some balance I've just sold a 4WD Impreza and replaced it with a RWD Cayman R.
900T-R said:
jamieduff1981 said:
To me, a desire to deploy more power in the cold and/or wet than 2WD can deliver suggests driving far too fast for the conditions.
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