RE: All-wheel drive, half the fun? PH Blog
Discussion
wab172uk said:
Captainawesome said:
4WD drive is for gays and girls...steer from the rear baby!!! 
And you own and oversteer what exactly?I once had some bloke chatting to me next to an R8 & 370Z. He quite adamantly told me he'd choose the 370Z as he'd be able to powerslide the 370 round roundabouts. Was he some very talented driver? A racing driver? Track day goer? No. He worked in an office, drove a Mondeo, and didn't really drive far apart from work & back.
Probably one of the writes on here pretending to be one of the many drivers with more talent than Lewis Hamilton.
I don't particularly want some knob end testing his skills at drifting coming the other way round the corner at me either.
Another thing, people saying a 4WD car will not stop any quicker in the snow than 2WD, nonsense, when I'm driving down a hill of any kind (especially steeper ones) in the snow and using the gears to slow the car down, 4WD does that much better, and it's no worse when travelling at higher speeds on the open road either.
Edited by Nors on Wednesday 26th November 14:23
For me how you engage with the car is far more important than the actual capability / speed / lap time etc. 4WD can only remove that engagement - more weight, steering corrupted due to torque through the front wheels, more unsprung weight etc. Therefore, in my mind 4WD is a tool, RWD is for fun.
I guess some people have to combine the two - US snow belt and the higher areas of Europe as described earlier. For those people I guess there's logic in the 4WD option, but in the UK? No thanks.
If you're buying 4WD because you're frightened that the 2WD version will throw itself off the road at the first sign of a damp piece of tarmac then you really need to slow down or get some driver training!
I guess some people have to combine the two - US snow belt and the higher areas of Europe as described earlier. For those people I guess there's logic in the 4WD option, but in the UK? No thanks.
If you're buying 4WD because you're frightened that the 2WD version will throw itself off the road at the first sign of a damp piece of tarmac then you really need to slow down or get some driver training!
g7jhp said:
Kawasicki said:
g7jhp said:
Sometimes you just want to get into your car and know it's going to get you to your destination quickly, effortlessly without drama.
No, that's not something I want.I grew up in Ireland, some of my favourite drives are on icy backroads, in a Ford Granada, at about 8-30mph.
I know I'm odd. I enjoy the challenge. If it is no effort then there is no reward, somebody else may as well be driving.
Nors said:
Helicopter123 said:
The argument for 4wd in winter is a complete red herring. A 2wd car with winter tyres is a far better bet and will get you further, and then help you stop when you arrive.
I can only laugh when this comment roles out again and again. Perhaps in flatter conditions where steeper inclines are not involved, 2WD with winter tyres can prevail, but to imply they are a far better bet? 
I live in the central highlands of Scotland where the snow tends to get a fair bit deeper than southern parts and the hill turning on my street (where you have to turn and climb at the same time)is a complete waste of time with anything RWD. Try asking my brother in law with his BMW complete with winter tyres and bags of sand in the boot, still no chance climbing it!!
I have consistently preferred RWD for sports cars, and will likely continue to do so. However, the big difference as Dan noted is in the wet. Of course, a GT3 will be shod on semi-track tires, and I know what that feels like. My 997.1 RS was the last production Porsche with no stability control, and on MPSCs in the wet it is very,very tricky. There are much better drivers who would do it far better, doubtless.
I have a 991 RS on the way next year, and am looking forward to seeing how the cars compare, but with all of the additional technology it will surely be easier to drive on a wet track.
For winter driving in the kind of winters I get either FWD or AWD is immensely better providing you have proper winter tires. I have friends who use their Turbos of C4Ss in winter unless the snow is very deep. I park mine and use a properly shod AWD or 4x4 for winter.
This is fun:
This is frankly ( for me) pretty scary. Mosport in Canada on a wet day, several cars badly crashed. I also did a very wet day at the Nurburgring and the results were predictable, lots of accidents. Four laps was enough for me. I expect that an AWD with all of the toys would have done much better, but when a GCT wiped out in front of me I called it a day.
I have a 991 RS on the way next year, and am looking forward to seeing how the cars compare, but with all of the additional technology it will surely be easier to drive on a wet track.
For winter driving in the kind of winters I get either FWD or AWD is immensely better providing you have proper winter tires. I have friends who use their Turbos of C4Ss in winter unless the snow is very deep. I park mine and use a properly shod AWD or 4x4 for winter.
This is fun:
This is frankly ( for me) pretty scary. Mosport in Canada on a wet day, several cars badly crashed. I also did a very wet day at the Nurburgring and the results were predictable, lots of accidents. Four laps was enough for me. I expect that an AWD with all of the toys would have done much better, but when a GCT wiped out in front of me I called it a day.
jamieduff1981 said:
For what you describe, any sort of performance car with little ground clearance and big wide tyres is the last thing anyone would choose. The number of driven wheels is not quite secondary but a GT-R ain't a Defender.
I can only talk from experience, and I've never got stuck on my hill with 4WD cars, of which I've had a few. Including ones with 255 wide tyres - yes, a bit like a sledge in the steering department because of them, but plently traction for climbing snowy inclines.What is required with most modern 4WD's, well Audi's at least, is to remember to switch the traction control off, as it trys to back the throttle off if you lose any form of traction and can get you stuck.
The old ur quattro however, with it's comparitively old mechanical 4WD and modest 225 tyres will literally plough it's way through deep snow, gradiant or not. I know, because I've done it many times.
GTR's I can't speak for Jamie.
jamieduff1981 said:
TurboHatchback said:
Back in the real world and a UK winter, what is the point in having lots of power if you can't deploy it at low speeds in bad conditions? Pulling into busy traffic, cornering on tight little roads with no room for slip etc, 4wd makes absolute sense in a powerful car.
Do you live in a harsher climate UK than I do?Where is this real world I keep hearing about?
4WD = better traction off the line than RWD.
High performance RWD cars often have wider section rear wheels/tyres to help get them off the line/aid traction too.
So then, don't use the argument "4WD cars are dangerous because you go faster and therfore stop slower" when a very similar theory applies to most high performance RWD cars with 'skinny' front wheels.
High performance RWD cars often have wider section rear wheels/tyres to help get them off the line/aid traction too.
So then, don't use the argument "4WD cars are dangerous because you go faster and therfore stop slower" when a very similar theory applies to most high performance RWD cars with 'skinny' front wheels.
All this discussion, and no one has brought up horsepower, outside of the original post. I prefer RWD generally, but in my mind, that preference starts to tip at around 550 horsepower in many street cars. At that point, dry traction becomes a major issue.
For big luxury cars with well over 500 horsepower, AWD absolutely makes sense. If you bury the throttle, a RWD E63 will have the traction control light flashing all the way up to highway speed - on a sunny day. That means you are paying for horsepower that you won't even get in regular use.
Don't get me wrong - for a pure sports car used on track, 500+ horsepower is deployable, as the speeds are higher. But for an E Class, M5, or S Class Coupe, RWD just won't get the power to the ground in the situations where they are actually driven. Even the F-Type R and the new M3 seem to have trouble hooking up in the dry on the track. Oversteer is great, but roasting a set of tires in a morning on track is less so.
For big luxury cars with well over 500 horsepower, AWD absolutely makes sense. If you bury the throttle, a RWD E63 will have the traction control light flashing all the way up to highway speed - on a sunny day. That means you are paying for horsepower that you won't even get in regular use.
Don't get me wrong - for a pure sports car used on track, 500+ horsepower is deployable, as the speeds are higher. But for an E Class, M5, or S Class Coupe, RWD just won't get the power to the ground in the situations where they are actually driven. Even the F-Type R and the new M3 seem to have trouble hooking up in the dry on the track. Oversteer is great, but roasting a set of tires in a morning on track is less so.
Edited by articulatedj on Wednesday 26th November 15:35
jamieduff1981 said:
Do you live in a harsher climate UK than I do?
Where is this real world I keep hearing about?
If you can't join a road with 2WD there isn't a gap to pull into.
I'd hate to meet you coming the other way on the sorts of tight little roads I drive daily because if there isn't enough room for error to drive RWD then you sure and s
t won't be able to stop when you meet someone coming the other way.
The fact that you would be sat there with the rear axle spinning does not negate the existence of the gap nor the ability for others in different (more suitable?) machinery to pull into it.Where is this real world I keep hearing about?
If you can't join a road with 2WD there isn't a gap to pull into.
I'd hate to meet you coming the other way on the sorts of tight little roads I drive daily because if there isn't enough room for error to drive RWD then you sure and s
t won't be able to stop when you meet someone coming the other way.Nors said:
Helicopter123 said:
The argument for 4wd in winter is a complete red herring. A 2wd car with winter tyres is a far better bet and will get you further, and then help you stop when you arrive.
I can only laugh when this comment roles out again and again. Perhaps in flatter conditions where steeper inclines are not involved, 2WD with winter tyres can prevail, but to imply they are a far better bet? I live in the central highlands of Scotland where the snow tends to get a fair bit deeper than southern parts and the hill turning on my street (where you have to turn and climb at the same time)is a complete waste of time with anything RWD. Try asking my brother in law with his BMW complete with winter tyres and bags of sand in the boot, still no chance climbing it!!
tomjol said:
The fact that you would be sat there with the rear axle spinning does not negate the existence of the gap nor the ability for others in different (more suitable?) machinery to pull into it.
Do you really want to make a quick getaway to pull into a gap in conditions such that any car on legal tyres would just be sat with the rear wheels spinning? I'd be a bit concerned about my, or others', ability to brake in those conditions.FWIW, the only times my front-engined, RWD, lightweight car 'sat with the rear axle spinning' was on several inches of snow with an icy layer on top. And even then, it didn't just sit there, it just added a healthy dose of sideways movement to the forward one - which in a case or two required more width than the lane in question had to offer...
underphil said:
not all about going up hills though, the RWD car with winter tyres will be far safer and controllable going down a steep hill than the AWD with normal tyres
Ah yes, but an AWD with winters all round will be better going up and down hill than either a FWD or RWD with winters!
FWDRacer said:
jamieduff1981 said:
To me, a desire to deploy more power in the cold and/or wet than 2WD can deliver suggests driving far too fast for the conditions.
We have a winner! 
He had a Cupra R, now has an Impreza, at speeds where the Cupra R would be struggling significantly (with wheels spin etc) the Impreza is completely planted and safe.
Judging one cars capabilities based on anothers is pretty stupid.
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