RE: All-wheel drive, half the fun? PH Blog
Discussion
jamieduff1981 said:
TurboHatchback said:
Back in the real world and a UK winter, what is the point in having lots of power if you can't deploy it at low speeds in bad conditions? Pulling into busy traffic, cornering on tight little roads with no room for slip etc, 4wd makes absolute sense in a powerful car.
Do you live in a harsher climate UK than I do?Where is this real world I keep hearing about?
If you can't join a road with 2WD there isn't a gap to pull into.
I'd hate to meet you coming the other way on the sorts of tight little roads I drive daily because if there isn't enough room for error to drive RWD then you sure and s
t won't be able to stop when you meet someone coming the other way.I think RWD 'fun' is usually inappropriate for the road so I would take an AWD car every time. On a track I would much prefer to be slithering around in a RWD car.
I've owned both and don't have a preference, I think the application applies to the situation.
No point in comparing certain cars from different era's so lets look at the cars you mentioned.
The reality (contrary to all the journalistic hyperbole) is that 911 Carrera's and F -type's don't need spend their time going sideways or even driven to 80% of their ability in dry conditions let alone wet so what are you gaining with RWD?
Better steering? "Sports" cars are using electronic systems so I doubt you would notice any difference from RWD to AWD
Better feel? Wheels and tyres are so massive and wide now how would you know? You need a good dollop of throttle and some silly steering angle to get it moving
More power to the wheels? slightly better but would you really notice?
Better Fuel economy? Yes.
For AWD
Better all weather performance.
So discounting the man points for the RWD badge it comes down to whether you are going to use the car in the snow???
No point in comparing certain cars from different era's so lets look at the cars you mentioned.
The reality (contrary to all the journalistic hyperbole) is that 911 Carrera's and F -type's don't need spend their time going sideways or even driven to 80% of their ability in dry conditions let alone wet so what are you gaining with RWD?
Better steering? "Sports" cars are using electronic systems so I doubt you would notice any difference from RWD to AWD
Better feel? Wheels and tyres are so massive and wide now how would you know? You need a good dollop of throttle and some silly steering angle to get it moving
More power to the wheels? slightly better but would you really notice?
Better Fuel economy? Yes.
For AWD
Better all weather performance.
So discounting the man points for the RWD badge it comes down to whether you are going to use the car in the snow???
Ahhh, a subject close to my heart! I run winter tyres on my M5 through the cold part of the year and great fun it is. Yes, I am getting through traction warning bulbs at a fair rate but its great fun keeping her balanced on tippy toes with the throttle. When it does really snow, it's TC off and any excuse for a cross country blast, brilliant sideways fun! I have no idea why people don't buy winter tyres!
900T-R said:
tomjol said:
The fact that you would be sat there with the rear axle spinning does not negate the existence of the gap nor the ability for others in different (more suitable?) machinery to pull into it.
Do you really want to make a quick getaway to pull into a gap in conditions such that any car on legal tyres would just be sat with the rear wheels spinning? I'd be a bit concerned about my, or others', ability to brake in those conditions.FWIW, the only times my front-engined, RWD, lightweight car 'sat with the rear axle spinning' was on several inches of snow with an icy layer on top. And even then, it didn't just sit there, it just added a healthy dose of sideways movement to the forward one - which in a case or two required more width than the lane in question had to offer...
There is no clear line where a gap goes from "safe" to "dangerous", it's a judgement call based on experience, conditions, the situation, etc. Therefore, to say that "there is no gap into which an AWD car could safely pull while an RWD one could not", is frankly preposterous.
jamieduff1981 said:
If you can't join a road with 2WD there isn't a gap to pull into.
The size of the gap required is directly proportional to the speed of acceleration you have to join the flow of traffic.In the dry my RWD cars are fine - in the cold and wet I have to wait for much larger gaps - or use my AWD car.
I've had it all. I live in New England, where we tend to get about 1.5 - 2m of annual snowfall.
* RWD 2-door full-size American pickup (Ford F-150 XL)
* FWD 2+2 sporty coupe (Mitsubishi Eclipse GT)
* AWD 4-door saloon (Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII MR)
* RWD 2-seat roadster (Mazda MX-5 Miata)
* RWD mid-engine 2-seat coupe (Porsche Cayman GTS, current)
With the last two, I've had to drive a lot less, and often the option of just taking public transit. However, the Miata has seen a reasonable amount of snow (and plenty of rain), often on sticky Michelins. Tomorrow for Thanksgiving I have a contingency Honda Civic rental lined up, but I'd prefer to save the $100 and just take the Porsche for the 200km roundtrip, despite it being 1-3C, wet and possibly with a teeny bit of snow. Crazily enough, only the Evo ever had dedicated winters on it, but granted I was sometimes driving 140km every weekday.
For me, the best option is to get a $6000 (4000 pound) "beater" for winter and terrible weather. Probably end up being an older Toyota Matrix (a Corolla hatchback, basically) where nothing'll ever go wrong.
* RWD 2-door full-size American pickup (Ford F-150 XL)
* FWD 2+2 sporty coupe (Mitsubishi Eclipse GT)
* AWD 4-door saloon (Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII MR)
* RWD 2-seat roadster (Mazda MX-5 Miata)
* RWD mid-engine 2-seat coupe (Porsche Cayman GTS, current)
With the last two, I've had to drive a lot less, and often the option of just taking public transit. However, the Miata has seen a reasonable amount of snow (and plenty of rain), often on sticky Michelins. Tomorrow for Thanksgiving I have a contingency Honda Civic rental lined up, but I'd prefer to save the $100 and just take the Porsche for the 200km roundtrip, despite it being 1-3C, wet and possibly with a teeny bit of snow. Crazily enough, only the Evo ever had dedicated winters on it, but granted I was sometimes driving 140km every weekday.
For me, the best option is to get a $6000 (4000 pound) "beater" for winter and terrible weather. Probably end up being an older Toyota Matrix (a Corolla hatchback, basically) where nothing'll ever go wrong.
Dan Trent said:
I won't throw a spoiler in yet but suffice to say this discussion will continue in the vein you suggest very soon on PH!
Most excellent. Here's hoping it won't be Evo obsessed and gives the 16 & 8 valves their due. After all these years, they really aren't that different.
I've just bought my first 4wd in the form of a Porsche 996 Carrera 4. I wanted something with a roof and heater first of all (that and always wanting a 911) to go with my Westfield. I wasn't dead set on a 4 but it might be pretty good in the wet on track days. Torque split is 5% to the front going up to 40% I think.
Edited by m444ttb on Wednesday 26th November 20:13
I am glad 4wd road cars exist for those who simply prefer a point and squirt and/or may not want to learn or enjoy to synchronise steering inputs and throttle modulation. It's a free world, each to their own.
Despite my limited driving skills, I far prefer RWD, however slow that makes me. At least if I lose traction, I know exactly what axle is going to give up first, better predictability.
The idea of lugging all that unnecessary hardware/cost/maintenance/higher mpg/complication all year round because one can't fathom the very basic of driving makes me smile but then again, if it makes someone feel safer and happier, then I am happy for them.
Voilà.
Despite my limited driving skills, I far prefer RWD, however slow that makes me. At least if I lose traction, I know exactly what axle is going to give up first, better predictability.
The idea of lugging all that unnecessary hardware/cost/maintenance/higher mpg/complication all year round because one can't fathom the very basic of driving makes me smile but then again, if it makes someone feel safer and happier, then I am happy for them.
Voilà.
I know that a lot of you have vastly more experience than I do, so I for one would vote for AWD. It comes into its own not only when crap weather beckons, but probably anytime there's more than 350bhp involved. While some have pointed out that a good set of winter tires are better than summers on an AWD car, probably most here are talking about cars that are kept off the road when conditions are that bad.
Dan makes a good point about the simplicity of probable reliability of RWD as all of these electronic systems governing traction management possibly won't age well, and besides, in the dry it doesn't matter that much.
However...lurid hooning around corners with opposite lock isn't the fastest way around...having all four footprints biting and not sliding is.
I guess where I fit in all this is I think AWD is a plus...so long as you don't keep your car over ten years so it doesn't become a maintenance nightmare.
Dan makes a good point about the simplicity of probable reliability of RWD as all of these electronic systems governing traction management possibly won't age well, and besides, in the dry it doesn't matter that much.
However...lurid hooning around corners with opposite lock isn't the fastest way around...having all four footprints biting and not sliding is.
I guess where I fit in all this is I think AWD is a plus...so long as you don't keep your car over ten years so it doesn't become a maintenance nightmare.
nickfrog said:
I am glad 4wd road cars exist for those who simply prefer a point and squirt and/or may not want to learn or enjoy to synchronise steering inputs and throttle modulation. It's a free world, each to their own.
Despite my limited driving skills, I far prefer RWD, however slow that makes me. At least if I lose traction, I know exactly what axle is going to give up first, better predictability.
One could be equally smug and say they are glad 2wd road cars exist for those that may not want to learn or enjoy losing traction on more than one axle...Despite my limited driving skills, I far prefer RWD, however slow that makes me. At least if I lose traction, I know exactly what axle is going to give up first, better predictability.
Tony33 said:
nickfrog said:
I am glad 4wd road cars exist for those who simply prefer a point and squirt and/or may not want to learn or enjoy to synchronise steering inputs and throttle modulation. It's a free world, each to their own.
Despite my limited driving skills, I far prefer RWD, however slow that makes me. At least if I lose traction, I know exactly what axle is going to give up first, better predictability.
The idea of lugging all that unnecessary hardware/cost/maintenance/higher mpg/complication all year round
One could be equally smug and say they are glad 2wd road cars exist for those that may not want to learn or enjoy losing traction on more than one axle...Despite my limited driving skills, I far prefer RWD, however slow that makes me. At least if I lose traction, I know exactly what axle is going to give up first, better predictability.
The idea of lugging all that unnecessary hardware/cost/maintenance/higher mpg/complication all year round
or matches our cufflinks.
having had 2 AWD cars, both imprezas, I must admit I prefer rwd, even after quite a few unforgettable experiences in snow in the scoobs. Ive scratched the 911 itch and had a 2wd 996 as it just felt more unique, which is a pretty crape explanation, but I found 4wd removed some of the 911 specialness. or perhaps I bought into the rwd snob factor?
What sealed the rwd deal for me was finding that going fast wasn't the same as having a fun drive... took a while, but I worked it out in the end :-) . Most fun car I've driven is also the least powerful I've driven in years: a 2000 s1 Elise...
I will never forget driving past a stuck range rover in the 996 with winter tyres on. the chap's face as he spun all 4 wheels going nowhere trying to get up a hill as I passed was priceless.
4wd 'essential' for snowy conditions? ask a Helsinki taxi driver that one... fwd v70 or rwd e class make up the majority of the fleet over here (I'm in Helsinki this week) and no one would take 4wd even though their livelihoods depend on getting around because it's simply not needed.
What sealed the rwd deal for me was finding that going fast wasn't the same as having a fun drive... took a while, but I worked it out in the end :-) . Most fun car I've driven is also the least powerful I've driven in years: a 2000 s1 Elise...
I will never forget driving past a stuck range rover in the 996 with winter tyres on. the chap's face as he spun all 4 wheels going nowhere trying to get up a hill as I passed was priceless.
4wd 'essential' for snowy conditions? ask a Helsinki taxi driver that one... fwd v70 or rwd e class make up the majority of the fleet over here (I'm in Helsinki this week) and no one would take 4wd even though their livelihoods depend on getting around because it's simply not needed.
anglophile said:
However...lurid hooning around corners with opposite lock isn't the fastest way around...having all four footprints biting and not sliding is.
Which is very easily achievable in a RWD car without the need to be a driving god (whatever that may mean). Just need not to treat the throttle as an on/off switch really. Not that going the fastest is that important on the open road, it's not exactly a race, is it ? The limiting factor is likely to be trafiic, line of sight or licence conservation.I would say it's actually easier to achieve with a balanced RWD chassis precisely because you know what axle will give up first in the traction zones, unlike 4wd (well apart from a Haldex one of course which will understeer by default). As for the lat grip zones up to the start of lock unwinding, well it has very little to do with which axle is driven.
Edited by nickfrog on Wednesday 26th November 21:29
nickfrog said:
anglophile said:
However...lurid hooning around corners with opposite lock isn't the fastest way around...having all four footprints biting and not sliding is.
Which is very easily achievable in a RWD car without the need to be a driving god (whatever that may mean). Just need not to treat the throttle as an on/off switch really.I would say it's actually easier to achieve with a balanced RWD chassis precisely because you know what axle will give up first in the traction zones, unlike 4wd (well apart from a Haldex one of course which will understeer by default). As for the lat grip zones up to the start of lock unwinding, well it has very little to do with which axle is driven.
It just depends upon the definition of fun and the definition of responsible which are both hugely subjective.
I have a 1971 ford escort. Rwd, with 360 bhp.
Would I have built it with awd? Definitely not.
Although it will spin its wheels and go very sideways purely on application of the thottle-and I wouldn't have it any other way-,sometimes all you need is the 'feeling' of oversteer,to help you turn into a corner. I have yet to experience that in anything other than rwd,though I can't claim to have driven every car on sale.
I did drive a 911 turbo,awd 997 version,on track. While it was bloody quick,it was also boring and gave very little feedback while in the corner.
Rwd for me all the way. Preferably with a mechanical lsd.
Would I have built it with awd? Definitely not.
Although it will spin its wheels and go very sideways purely on application of the thottle-and I wouldn't have it any other way-,sometimes all you need is the 'feeling' of oversteer,to help you turn into a corner. I have yet to experience that in anything other than rwd,though I can't claim to have driven every car on sale.
I did drive a 911 turbo,awd 997 version,on track. While it was bloody quick,it was also boring and gave very little feedback while in the corner.
Rwd for me all the way. Preferably with a mechanical lsd.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff