RE: All-wheel drive, half the fun? PH Blog
Discussion
Rear drive is fantastic fun, but taking my Supercharged M3 out in the wet is more an exercise of restraint than fun, certainly gets frustrating trying to deploy 550Bhp onto greasy bumpy roads and getting wheelspin into 3 figure speeds, and certainly leads to some bum twitching moments over surface changes, crests, white lines etc.
On the other hand, my 996 turbo (tuned & running about 600Bhp)is totally surefooted, and you can use most of the power most of the time, the way it handles every condition is testament to the 4wd chassis, and makes rapid progress very, very easy, but also great fun in a "this shouldn't be possible" kind of way.
It all comes down to horses for courses, IMHO having owned a number of high power rear drive cars, they are great fun but ultimately frustrating in poor conditions on the road, as you need to leave a higher safety margin compared to a similar 4x4 version. RWD certainly makes you a better driver in the long run though.
On the other hand, my 996 turbo (tuned & running about 600Bhp)is totally surefooted, and you can use most of the power most of the time, the way it handles every condition is testament to the 4wd chassis, and makes rapid progress very, very easy, but also great fun in a "this shouldn't be possible" kind of way.
It all comes down to horses for courses, IMHO having owned a number of high power rear drive cars, they are great fun but ultimately frustrating in poor conditions on the road, as you need to leave a higher safety margin compared to a similar 4x4 version. RWD certainly makes you a better driver in the long run though.
StottyEvo said:
I'd like to try an E46 M3 on a public road, I understand the chassis is very adjustable as is the throttle, this may change my opinion when compared to the twitchy 123d which had turbo lag and a comparably small power band.
Give one a try for a bit it is very good
. It's balance of mechanical grip is very well judged. Quite different to most new hatches that have enormous grip levels compared to their power output and cannot be driven on the throttle. Depending on what you are used to the E46 is surprisingly adjustable and predictable on the throttle even at normal road speeds and when pushing on really hard gives plenty of little warning signs/feedback as you approach the limit.If you are unable to recognize or interpret your car's behavior then you're less likely to realize you may be going too quickly in a 4wd sports saloon which will compensate for poor inputs and flatter you right until it all ends in tears.
While driving a 116i I encountered the same twitchy effect when it snapped out sideways on a damp patch unexpectedly due to me carrying too much corner speed. Not so much power oversteer more the momentum of the vehicle overcoming available traction. The combination of very grippy tires and weak engine leaving me without the option of using the engine/chassis to control the car and hoping and relying on the DSC/DTC/EBD, etc to save me made my bum go like a rabbit's nose.
Behemoth said:
The 4wd on (the Integrale) is awesome and I'd argue it's the perfect fun car on Britain's smaller A and B roads, all seasons for sure.
Have to agree with this wholeheartedly (although I confess to be biased ;-)). Within the context of 'FUN' to be had, the RWD v 4WD debate can be distilled into one question. Do you want to do oversteering drifts or not? All other FUN related points mentioned cannot be exclusively ascribed to either configuration; Some 4WD chassis are supremely balanced, (Integrale and GTR) having little if no understeer mid to outer corner, not to mention offering superior chassis and steering feedback than some RWD cars and it very much depends on how the manufacturer engineered the vehicle to behave.
As regards all weather ability, well, in most cases the 4WD gives you more security.
Stating 'I prefer RWD to 4WD' because the poster drove a couple of cars is a bit simplistic. I'd be interested to drive a 4WD Audi R8 back to back with a sorted contemporary RWD car. I wager it would compare very well...
All this thread proves is how much BS is spouted on car forums, honestly how many people drive any car fast enough on public roads to generate oversteer? Those who have the means and talent will be doing it on a track instead. Likewise with all the 911 claptrap as a long term Porsche owner I have spent the last 20 years hearing a constant stream of fantastical drivel about these cars, they did a good job of inflating the prices. On that car for all but the 964 it boils down to one simple thing, the weight of the 4wd gubbins up front calms the front end down, the same of which can be achieved with a couple of heavy bags in the front boot. This is why many didn't like them, it removed an inherent design flaw with how the car steers which the fanatics love.
I've owned FWD, 4WD and RWD performance cars (and driven countless more) and now choose RWD every time. For me, RWD isn't for oversteer and it's not "heroic", it just gives, for me, the nicest feeling through the bends. I find that FWD and 4WD only give their best when you're caning it (usually on track if you have any sense), and even then they don't offer the interaction and adjustability of RWD, just as they fail to do at road speeds. For me driving is about pleasure, not lap times, traction, interior space, keeping costs down, driving on muddy fields etc, and that's why I choose RWD, because I enjoy it the most. I can well understand other people getting pleasure from the feeling of traction and performance, but for me it's purely about what I find most enjoyable. I guess it's a bit like my preference for a manual gearbox in that sense.
chelme said:
Have to agree with this wholeheartedly (although I confess to be biased ;-)).
Within the context of 'FUN' to be had, the RWD v 4WD debate can be distilled into one question. Do you want to do oversteering drifts or not? All other FUN related points mentioned cannot be exclusively ascribed to either configuration; Some 4WD chassis are supremely balanced, (Integrale and GTR) having little if no understeer mid to outer corner, not to mention offering superior chassis and steering feedback than some RWD cars and it very much depends on how the manufacturer engineered the vehicle to behave.
As regards all weather ability, well, in most cases the 4WD gives you more security.
Stating 'I prefer RWD to 4WD' because the poster drove a couple of cars is a bit simplistic. I'd be interested to drive a 4WD Audi R8 back to back with a sorted contemporary RWD car. I wager it would compare very well...
I think the Audi is setup for mostly rear drive under most conditions, so probably a good compromise for "feel" and security.Within the context of 'FUN' to be had, the RWD v 4WD debate can be distilled into one question. Do you want to do oversteering drifts or not? All other FUN related points mentioned cannot be exclusively ascribed to either configuration; Some 4WD chassis are supremely balanced, (Integrale and GTR) having little if no understeer mid to outer corner, not to mention offering superior chassis and steering feedback than some RWD cars and it very much depends on how the manufacturer engineered the vehicle to behave.
As regards all weather ability, well, in most cases the 4WD gives you more security.
Stating 'I prefer RWD to 4WD' because the poster drove a couple of cars is a bit simplistic. I'd be interested to drive a 4WD Audi R8 back to back with a sorted contemporary RWD car. I wager it would compare very well...
There's a lot of variation in AWD, some rear balanced, some front, some with a lot of adjustment via settings, electronics or the throttle. Something for everyone to choose their favourite configuration, which they have, and that's what they think is best...
A lot of people don't seem to get that. You can set up a 4WD car to drive indistinguishably from either a FWD car or a RWD car if you choose to simply by tuning the spring and damper rates and how much of the power goes where.
There are two things you can't do with a 4Wd car. The first is remove the steering corruption, although since most RWD cars have no steering feel these days that's largely irrelevant; the second is make it quite as light as an equivalent RWD car but again modern cars are so heavy and so numb that an extra 50kg of drivetrain makes little difference.
There are two things you can't do with a 4Wd car. The first is remove the steering corruption, although since most RWD cars have no steering feel these days that's largely irrelevant; the second is make it quite as light as an equivalent RWD car but again modern cars are so heavy and so numb that an extra 50kg of drivetrain makes little difference.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 27th November 09:31
Catatafish said:
chelme said:
Have to agree with this wholeheartedly (although I confess to be biased ;-)).
Within the context of 'FUN' to be had, the RWD v 4WD debate can be distilled into one question. Do you want to do oversteering drifts or not? All other FUN related points mentioned cannot be exclusively ascribed to either configuration; Some 4WD chassis are supremely balanced, (Integrale and GTR) having little if no understeer mid to outer corner, not to mention offering superior chassis and steering feedback than some RWD cars and it very much depends on how the manufacturer engineered the vehicle to behave.
As regards all weather ability, well, in most cases the 4WD gives you more security.
Stating 'I prefer RWD to 4WD' because the poster drove a couple of cars is a bit simplistic. I'd be interested to drive a 4WD Audi R8 back to back with a sorted contemporary RWD car. I wager it would compare very well...
I think the Audi is setup for mostly rear drive under most conditions, so probably a good compromise for "feel" and security.Within the context of 'FUN' to be had, the RWD v 4WD debate can be distilled into one question. Do you want to do oversteering drifts or not? All other FUN related points mentioned cannot be exclusively ascribed to either configuration; Some 4WD chassis are supremely balanced, (Integrale and GTR) having little if no understeer mid to outer corner, not to mention offering superior chassis and steering feedback than some RWD cars and it very much depends on how the manufacturer engineered the vehicle to behave.
As regards all weather ability, well, in most cases the 4WD gives you more security.
Stating 'I prefer RWD to 4WD' because the poster drove a couple of cars is a bit simplistic. I'd be interested to drive a 4WD Audi R8 back to back with a sorted contemporary RWD car. I wager it would compare very well...
There's a lot of variation in AWD, some rear balanced, some front, some with a lot of adjustment via settings, electronics or the throttle. Something for everyone to choose their favourite configuration, which they have, and that's what they think is best...
NJH said:
All this thread proves is how much BS is spouted on car forums, honestly how many people drive any car fast enough on public roads to generate oversteer? Those who have the means and talent will be doing it on a track instead.
Lots of people do and I frequent this forum to talk to those people.Do you really think that people who drive on track don't drive fast on public roads
kambites said:
A lot of people don't seem to get that. You can set up a 4WD car to drive indistinguishably from either a FWD car or a RWD car if you choose to simply by tuning the spring and damper rates and how much of the power goes where.
There are two things you can't do with a 4Wd car. The first is remove the steering corruption, although since most RWD cars have no steering feel these days that's largely irrelevant; the second is make it quite as light as an equivalent RWD car but again modern cars are so heavy and so numb that an extra 50kg of drivetrain makes little difference.
Good sum up - brings things up to date!There are two things you can't do with a 4Wd car. The first is remove the steering corruption, although since most RWD cars have no steering feel these days that's largely irrelevant; the second is make it quite as light as an equivalent RWD car but again modern cars are so heavy and so numb that an extra 50kg of drivetrain makes little difference.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 27th November 09:31
I can understand when RobM says he prefers RWD because even at nominal speed through bends etc he just prefers the feel of it all.
All those that prefer RWD because they 'control the drift with throttle inputs' etc etc, again, fine with me, as long as it's on a track. Let's face it, of joe public, how many actually go to track their car in percentage terms - not a lot. Numpties doing that on an open road just look like dicks anyway and are a hazard to other road users, perceived skill or not.
I've had 4 BMW's in the past, and whilst they were great to drive, I got fed up wrestling the car on anything but dry roads.
I don't dislike RWD cars, far from it, but as an all round day to day proposition and the weather we get here, AWD is far less hassle -for me.
Even such minor tasks as pulling out from junctions in the wet, in AWD you don't have to think about getting caught out sitting in the middle of the junction wheel spinning or traction control preventing progress, it's just pull out, plant it if required, no drama. That's easier and safer imho.
Everyone has a preference and it's horses for courses as said a thousand times but it's true, pay your money and take your choice, whatever your choice is, it's obviously what's best for you and your preference - doesn't bother me.
smilo996 said:
To be fair, Porsche had to put 4WD on the 911 because of the development of competitors that were, when adding more horses to the 911, with its engine out on a limb is was a safety measue to prevent killing and injuring more owners.
However, it also removed the primary reason for putting the engine there in the first place. 
Nors said:
Good sum up - brings things up to date!
I can understand when RobM says he prefers RWD because even at nominal speed through bends etc he just prefers the feel of it all.
All those that prefer RWD because they 'control the drift with throttle inputs' etc etc, again, fine with me, as long as it's on a track. Let's face it, of joe public, how many actually go to track their car in percentage terms - not a lot. Numpties doing that on an open road just look like dicks anyway and are a hazard to other road users, perceived skill or not.
A car is always in a drift though, because it'll always develop slip angles to some degree when it's cornering. Ergo the two comments above in bold are one and the same thing. So when I say I prefer the feel of RWD to FWD or 4WD, I am actually referring to the reactions of the car to throttle movements, and whether that happens at 30mph or 60mph in the same corner; that's purely a matter of where you draw the line from a safety point of view and your own skill levels - everyone has a line somewhere, be it an old lady at 30mph or Lewis Hamilton at 60mph, and to ignore that basic principle is more dangerous than to not. To give Lewis H the same line as the old lady is nonsensical. Where we place our line is up to us as responsible drivers.I can understand when RobM says he prefers RWD because even at nominal speed through bends etc he just prefers the feel of it all.
All those that prefer RWD because they 'control the drift with throttle inputs' etc etc, again, fine with me, as long as it's on a track. Let's face it, of joe public, how many actually go to track their car in percentage terms - not a lot. Numpties doing that on an open road just look like dicks anyway and are a hazard to other road users, perceived skill or not.
Personally, I think that driving a car briskly, perhaps close to the slip angle that produces the highest lateral grip, and doing so gently and in full control given appropriate skill levels and an appropriate road situation, is a world apart from flinging a car sideways and then catching it again. I regard the latter as very dangerous and would never do it on a public road with other people about, or to be honest on a race track - I'll keep that for empty skidpans thanks. I've always assumed that by saying "driving a car fast" or "drifting" or "driving a car on the throttle", posters are referring to lurid sideways Chris Harris style action - I just want to clarify that I do not condone or do that on the public road, or even on a race track during a track day (for which you'll be black flagged); in sharp contrast, when I say those things I'm simply referring to the way I drive every single day and have aways done for the circa 300,000 miles of road driving that I've done over the last 20 years. I'm sure I'm not alone either, else everyone would be driving round in 4WD automatics and cars like the GT86, 968CS or Elise would have no purpose at all.
Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 27th November 11:36
I think the only valid comparisons is within the same model with different drive trains, in this case the Carrera 4 v Carrera is the only existing example of this.
Now that the 991 has so many electronic aids, massive tyres and electronic steering can anyone really tell the difference?
Now that the 991 has so many electronic aids, massive tyres and electronic steering can anyone really tell the difference?
personal viewpoint here.
The 4WD gives me better grip when i accelerate from standstill, that is all i am interested in.
Too many times in the 265bhp FWD VXR did i frustratingly light up the front tyres (and subsequently the TC system) whilst just trying to pull right out of a t-junction on anything other than bone dry roads - this is not me flooring it either,
I understand this is pretty much the same situation for RWD (i have zero RWD experience. NEVER owned one in the 15 years of driving. any 'drifting' skills were picked up purely on mariokart ...)
I know there are better FWD cars with diffs and whatnot, but you will always get SOME slip and when you are going past the 300hp mark its a lot to ask of just the front wheels.
Lastly, with regard to snow. Good point raised about the false sense of security re braking once you've effortlessly built up more speed than practical however i remember in my type-r trying to get up my sisters road, tried everything, feathering, first, second, run up, nothing worked.
AWD would have helped me just get to her house, which would have been a huge bonus that cold February evening rather than having to walk the half mile from the start of the hill.
In answer to the OP - AWD, half the fun? - Yes. Because fun usually = driving the car on the edge if its/your ability on a public road, which is where most of spend 99% of our driving lives.
I would rather be surefooted and quick than sideways and slow.
The 4WD gives me better grip when i accelerate from standstill, that is all i am interested in.
Too many times in the 265bhp FWD VXR did i frustratingly light up the front tyres (and subsequently the TC system) whilst just trying to pull right out of a t-junction on anything other than bone dry roads - this is not me flooring it either,
I understand this is pretty much the same situation for RWD (i have zero RWD experience. NEVER owned one in the 15 years of driving. any 'drifting' skills were picked up purely on mariokart ...)
I know there are better FWD cars with diffs and whatnot, but you will always get SOME slip and when you are going past the 300hp mark its a lot to ask of just the front wheels.
Lastly, with regard to snow. Good point raised about the false sense of security re braking once you've effortlessly built up more speed than practical however i remember in my type-r trying to get up my sisters road, tried everything, feathering, first, second, run up, nothing worked.
AWD would have helped me just get to her house, which would have been a huge bonus that cold February evening rather than having to walk the half mile from the start of the hill.
In answer to the OP - AWD, half the fun? - Yes. Because fun usually = driving the car on the edge if its/your ability on a public road, which is where most of spend 99% of our driving lives.
I would rather be surefooted and quick than sideways and slow.
Pixelpeep7r said:
In answer to the OP - AWD, half the fun? - Yes. Because fun usually = driving the car on the edge if its/your ability on a public road, which is where most of spend 99% of our driving lives.
I would rather be surefooted and quick than sideways and slow.
A very valid point, but bear in mind that fun is defined differently for each of us. I don't regard being on the edge of my ability as fun, at least not in a car on the road or a track with other people on it.I would rather be surefooted and quick than sideways and slow.
Helicopter123 said:
The argument for 4wd in winter is a complete red herring. A 2wd car with winter tyres is a far better bet and will get you further, and then help you stop when you arrive.
4wd on performance cars will help the novice to enjoy more of the performance in the dry.
Compare the 2WD with winter tyres to AWD with winter tyres then... does the AWD get you even even further and help you stop even before you set off?4wd on performance cars will help the novice to enjoy more of the performance in the dry.
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