RE: 'McLaren-Honda: a new era' - Time For Coffee?
Discussion
I personally think they should stick Mag as a test/reserve driver for the next year. Keep JB to help the transition year, then I think JB should call it quits with McLaren and move off to another class the following year, maybe WEC. I fear for any team mate that goes along side Alonso as he's likely to get preferential treatement and that would likely ruin Mag's career whereas Button is likely to be fair better against him.
It was widely known in F1 circles that the Honda engine in the BAR and Honda cars was capable of another 100HP but was purposefully restricted to lower power levels as Honda engines 'don't break'. it would have been seen as a major loss of face for a Honda Engine to lunch itself in a plume of oil and smoke rather than get to the finish, even if it were in a lower position. This apparently came from Honda HQ. Reliability over competitiveness.
duffy78 said:
robinessex said:
Shake down mule. That's it. The cars are visually ugly and 'clones' of each other these days anyway. I bet if you lined up the last GP grid with all the cars the same color, you'd have a dam hard job id'ing them.
A fan of the sport wouldn't. 
MissChief said:
It was widely known in F1 circles that the Honda engine in the BAR and Honda cars was capable of another 100HP but was purposefully restricted to lower power levels as Honda engines 'don't break'. it would have been seen as a major loss of face for a Honda Engine to lunch itself in a plume of oil and smoke rather than get to the finish, even if it were in a lower position. This apparently came from Honda HQ. Reliability over competitiveness.
It is also widely known that the Honda engines were a lot heavier than their rivals back then too.But they did suffer with reliability, probably mostly "electrical" cos of course, the engines don't break!!;)
Thunder18 said:
It is also widely known that the Honda engines were a lot heavier than their rivals back then too.
But they did suffer with reliability, probably mostly "electrical" cos of course, the engines don't break!!;)
There's a 'fact' Honda use for marketting - something about how "no VTEC unit has ever failed in one of their cars".But they did suffer with reliability, probably mostly "electrical" cos of course, the engines don't break!!;)
I had a VTEC engine which had a raft of faults (never solved) - when I highlighted that I was clearly a first (a poster displayed on the wall of the dealership at the time made the claim) the technician said the actual part of the engine they call "VTEC Unit" has no means of failure - that happens in the 20-odd systems it interfaces with instead - he went on to highlight that Honda wouldn't pay to fix all of them either...
I haven't seen the video yet but can imagine roughly what it'll be like. McLaren promo vids are a bit hit and miss 
I do think it makes sense to keep JB on board due to how popular he is over in Japan though I don't know if his previous relationship with Honda could be a benefit or a downfall. I do rate Magnussen, he's done well in his first season but the points table showed Button to be the one who's made better use of the car he'd been given. It's a no-brainer to have him partner Alonso, which I still can't quite get my head around after the whole 2007 affair.
The Honda engine could well be a Mercedes beater but it'll need development and recent McLarens have always seemed to start the season struggling though sometimes improve during the season with developments often massively as it did in '09. They haven't really started good for years and have seemed to be on the back-foot. I have a funny feeling 2015 will be more of the same whoever's driving for them.
In terms of where my allegiances lie, I normally back the underdog. I only liked Red Bull when they weren't winning for example lol I thought it great to see Williams come through, possibly massively helped by getting rid of that numptie Maldonado and of course the straight-line performance with that afore mentioned Merc engine. Which again brings us back to McLaren.
They were ones to have the major tie-in with Merc in the 90's. And they were pretty much "Silver Arrows" from '97. Sure Peter Sauber had first dibs but McLaren made it work. Eventually. The problems are within the team and the development of the aero and/or chassis. It just hasn't been a good enough package to properly challenge the past few seasons. Lets see how things improve or even if they...
I do think it makes sense to keep JB on board due to how popular he is over in Japan though I don't know if his previous relationship with Honda could be a benefit or a downfall. I do rate Magnussen, he's done well in his first season but the points table showed Button to be the one who's made better use of the car he'd been given. It's a no-brainer to have him partner Alonso, which I still can't quite get my head around after the whole 2007 affair.
The Honda engine could well be a Mercedes beater but it'll need development and recent McLarens have always seemed to start the season struggling though sometimes improve during the season with developments often massively as it did in '09. They haven't really started good for years and have seemed to be on the back-foot. I have a funny feeling 2015 will be more of the same whoever's driving for them.
In terms of where my allegiances lie, I normally back the underdog. I only liked Red Bull when they weren't winning for example lol I thought it great to see Williams come through, possibly massively helped by getting rid of that numptie Maldonado and of course the straight-line performance with that afore mentioned Merc engine. Which again brings us back to McLaren.
They were ones to have the major tie-in with Merc in the 90's. And they were pretty much "Silver Arrows" from '97. Sure Peter Sauber had first dibs but McLaren made it work. Eventually. The problems are within the team and the development of the aero and/or chassis. It just hasn't been a good enough package to properly challenge the past few seasons. Lets see how things improve or even if they...
ash73 said:
Williams compromised downforce for straight line speed, McLaren were switching to Honda (and taking IP with them); meanwhile the factory Mercs had so much power they literally ran full downforce everywhere. All Mercs are equal... not.
Isn't it quite unusual for an engine manufacturer with effectively unlimited budget to not only run its own team but supply other 'top' teams as well? Some of the rumours how mercedes have hampered thier customers sound about right, I mean why wouldn't you? Your train set right? I'm sure mclaren can't wait to race thier new bespoke engine. Has any customer team been consistently faster than the works team, ie works = produce & own thier chassis and engine productuon facilities? Can't help but think JB would do a fantastic job as part of the management team at McL but he's made his intentions clear, he'll never stop racing.
I think people are being a bit too quick to judge RD, though I do agree the whole operation looks a bit like a headless chicken at the moment. It would be nothing short of idiocy not to put JB in the car next to FA, any other driver they can pick up now will be washed aside and leave RD with little power to control FA.
I am worried that the Honda isn't going to be able to compete with the Merc though, and I expect extensive reliability problems just because they'll lack test time compared to other manufacturers. In all honesty I fear that we're in for another era of domination by a single team.
I think people are being a bit too quick to judge RD, though I do agree the whole operation looks a bit like a headless chicken at the moment. It would be nothing short of idiocy not to put JB in the car next to FA, any other driver they can pick up now will be washed aside and leave RD with little power to control FA.
I am worried that the Honda isn't going to be able to compete with the Merc though, and I expect extensive reliability problems just because they'll lack test time compared to other manufacturers. In all honesty I fear that we're in for another era of domination by a single team.
markcoznottz said:
Isn't it quite unusual for an engine manufacturer with effectively unlimited budget to not only run its own team but supply other 'top' teams as well? Some of the rumours how mercedes have hampered thier customers sound about right, I mean why wouldn't you? Your train set right? I'm sure mclaren can't wait to race thier new bespoke engine. Has any customer team been consistently faster than the works team, ie works = produce & own thier chassis and engine productuon facilities?
Arguably Red Bull, though Renault as a factory team was fading out of the picture as RB were coming to dominate.405dogvan said:
There's a 'fact' Honda use for marketting - something about how "no VTEC unit has ever failed in one of their cars".
I had a VTEC engine which had a raft of faults (never solved) - when I highlighted that I was clearly a first (a poster displayed on the wall of the dealership at the time made the claim) the technician said the actual part of the engine they call "VTEC Unit" has no means of failure - that happens in the 20-odd systems it interfaces with instead - he went on to highlight that Honda wouldn't pay to fix all of them either...
I don't think Honda ever used it, JC once said it on TG, so it just caught on from there, but generally vtec doesn't fail, something else has to go wrong if vtec can't go yo!!I had a VTEC engine which had a raft of faults (never solved) - when I highlighted that I was clearly a first (a poster displayed on the wall of the dealership at the time made the claim) the technician said the actual part of the engine they call "VTEC Unit" has no means of failure - that happens in the 20-odd systems it interfaces with instead - he went on to highlight that Honda wouldn't pay to fix all of them either...
Interesting that Honda wouldn't fix it, was it under warranty?
lbc said:
Hopefully McLaren get shot of Button who is just a hanger on in every team he has joined, and get a driver that wants to win.
A young 17 year old up and coming is what they need, just like in the Hakkinen days.
A young 17 year old up and coming is what they need, just like in the Hakkinen days.
via Imgflip Meme MakerI hope I'm wrong, but Honda are going to need a few years before they assert themselves. They appear to be counting on Alonso's consistency and ability to drag second rate cars up the grid to underline their entry. Button has proved he is capable of this too, but I wonder if his salary demands are a factor. He's reportedly the 3rd highest paid driver, earning closer to Alonso and Hamilton than Raikkonen does to him ($10 million less) . No fault of Jenson's but I reckon those latter three drivers have at least double the worldwide marketing power.
Maybe a more complex decision than we realise. Alonso has actually stated he would like Button 'a nice person' to stay.
Perhaps another perspective. But how can McLaren "out Mercedes" a Mercedes powered Mercedes chassis optimised for both and designed in house? If they do the same thing, they will only get barely a same or worse result surely? I.e. Williams, who have done it to such great effect this year.
If they want to be number 1 again, and I hope signing Alonso is a statement of intent, then they have to do something new. I think it's brave to go with Honda, whether it's foolish we'll know by the end of the 2016 season. But to win and beat the Mercs, IMO you have to do something different.
I hope, and see clear logic in keeping Button on too at least until the start of the 2016 season. One could argue it will ease Alonso in, by at least getting one car there or thereabouts to the available potential and leave some pressure off Fernando. This giving him a chance to get the car right, in the way he needs for 2016.
Ha ha Vettel though. Enjoy scrapping for a point if you're lucky.
If they want to be number 1 again, and I hope signing Alonso is a statement of intent, then they have to do something new. I think it's brave to go with Honda, whether it's foolish we'll know by the end of the 2016 season. But to win and beat the Mercs, IMO you have to do something different.
I hope, and see clear logic in keeping Button on too at least until the start of the 2016 season. One could argue it will ease Alonso in, by at least getting one car there or thereabouts to the available potential and leave some pressure off Fernando. This giving him a chance to get the car right, in the way he needs for 2016.
Ha ha Vettel though. Enjoy scrapping for a point if you're lucky.
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