RE: 'McLaren-Honda: a new era' - Time For Coffee?
Discussion
windydog said:
But to win and beat the Mercs, IMO you have to do something different.
I really don't think you do. 1. First of all you need a decent package of drivetrain and chassis.
2. Equally, you need a management team to know what they are doing and create a strong team ethos.
3. Then you need some decent drivers.
Mercedes have fixed all of the above.
McLaren only have 1. and 3. Mclaren do not have a Paddy Lowe/Toto Wolff/Niki Lauda pairing. They have Ron and Eric. It's not going to work.
windydog said:
If they want to be number 1 again, and I hope signing Alonso is a statement of intent, then they have to do something new. I think it's brave to go with Honda, whether it's foolish we'll know by the end of the 2016 season. But to win and beat the Mercs, IMO you have to do something different.
I long for the days when the rules allowed you to show up with 'something different'. A tiny car, a wing car, a fan car. Not anymore.toppstuff said:
I really don't think you do.
1. First of all you need a decent package of drivetrain and chassis.
2. Equally, you need a management team to know what they are doing and create a strong team ethos.
3. Then you need some decent drivers.
Mercedes have fixed all of the above.
McLaren only have 1. and 3. Mclaren do not have a Paddy Lowe/Toto Wolff/Niki Lauda pairing. They have Ron and Eric. It's not going to work.
Understand the arguement here, but Engineers make and maintain winning cars, Team managers do not IMO. Granted the TM have influence and tie it all together particularly with commercial/finance/media but do they make a car fast? Hence Red Bull being so good with Adrian Newey until he was handed a Renault engine and asked to polish a turd. Did Christian Horner make Vettel a 4 times champion, or did Newey?1. First of all you need a decent package of drivetrain and chassis.
2. Equally, you need a management team to know what they are doing and create a strong team ethos.
3. Then you need some decent drivers.
Mercedes have fixed all of the above.
McLaren only have 1. and 3. Mclaren do not have a Paddy Lowe/Toto Wolff/Niki Lauda pairing. They have Ron and Eric. It's not going to work.
I guess my arguement comes back to McLaren not being able to out engineer Mercedes whilst being an engine customer. Honda can make the engine that their chassis is optimised for, or at least offer the least compromised version.
In order of priority McLaren are thinking:
1. Chassis and drivetrain - unknown result, but worth a gamble to reduce the current package disadvantage.
2. The best possible driver they can attract - sorted. Alonso is easily top 3, if not top 2. Bear in mind they only need one driver to win a race which is where JB may be left out, to throw money at the car and keep Magnusson as the tester/ego fluffer for Alonso.
3. Management. Ron is Ron and this will not change.
windydog said:
Understand the arguement here, but Engineers make and maintain winning cars, Team managers do not IMO.
I think Mercedes are the proof that this is not how it pans out.Of course, Mercedes are technically very strong. Big budget, great engineers. But the team management make it all happen. They create the environment where the engineers can do their best.
I suspect Mclaren have some excellent engineers and they have hired some good people like the aero chap from Redbull. My fear is that the culture there does not really work as well at it could. Mclaren seem to have plenty of cock-ups and less than optimum outcomes - perhaps its the Ronspeak everywhere which results in no-one understanding what the hell the boss is on about !
I think it is easy to underestimate the impact of Niki Lauda at MB as well. I think he was able to manage the drivers well, as he commanded their respect. Mclaren have no such figure - I suspect inside the team the atmosphere isn't the same.
I'm amazed at the people blaming Ron Dennis for the lack of success. Ron has only been back in direct control of the F1 team since the start of this season. At that point the car etc was already designed and mostly built so there was very little he could do to suddenly jump them up the grid. Before that he had pulled back from the racing team and had been concentrating on the non racing side of the business. Martin Whitmarsh has been in charge and the team make up had been down to his decisions. Before Martin Whitmarsh, Ron had been in charge and the team were always at least succesful enough to get wins in a season. this suggests to me that Ron clearly isn't the reason for the teams troubles. Since he has been back in charge he has been making changes as teams like Ferrari have shown in the past, other than unexpected advantages coming from rule changes, it usually takes a few seasons to get properly back to the front so calling for Ron Dennis to go so soon is very premature!
(Plus he owns a big chunk of the company (He's bought more back recently) so he's very unlikely to be firing himself!)
(Plus he owns a big chunk of the company (He's bought more back recently) so he's very unlikely to be firing himself!)
As a factory team, McH will have full access to the Honda systems, controls etc. Ron already said that as a customer of Mercedes, they were limited as to what they could do and see. The PU was sealed and delivered.
It was not what they wanted, and in effect with Mercedes having the best PU in F1, they were able to control a lot of what went on and not give updates if/when possible.
Next year Honda will be strong, they have to be!!
It was not what they wanted, and in effect with Mercedes having the best PU in F1, they were able to control a lot of what went on and not give updates if/when possible.
Next year Honda will be strong, they have to be!!
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