RE: Shed Of The Week: MG TF

[kambites]

I suppose that's why there's so much confusion surrounding the K-series head gasket issues. There's just so many different problems which contribute to the failure and everyone has a different opinion on which ones actually matter.

If I could pick any engine to put in my car it would probably be a K20A or an F20C if someone engineered it for transverse installation. If my engine ever goes bang in a big way, it'll probably be a K20A that I end up replacing it with.

[Pickled]

whythem said:

As an ex NGA machine minder can I say we used to kick, punch and head but the machines at the same time as swearing, which is much more effective in getting a printing press to run.

Attending the riots at Wapping as an NGA union member then lead to attending the race, and poll tax riots of the same time. The best fun though was being coached up to various Welsh mines and rioting there, before attending a football match for a quick riot on the way home. I have a nice scar on my forehead from the pasting I got from a few coppers for punching a horse, great days

Not a bad sporting shed, I remember at the time they were very well regarded by the motoring press in comparison to the MX 5 as a good steer, but they have not aged well, especially the interiors.

Now I'm going to take an opposite view on this, I to was an NGA machine minder in the 80s/90s, and to be honest would rather not have been in the union but back then it was a closed shop - no card? no work. I never felt once the need to strike and nor did anyone I worked with, we were all overpaid to be honest, how many 18 years olds did you know earning over a grand a week in the 80s? Our works carpark wouldn't have been out of place in Canary Wharf.

[hairykrishna]

The problem I had with these is that the Mk2 MR2 appeared to be better in ever conceivable way, for basically the same money. Mk3's are almost down at this level now too.

[kambites]

hairykrishna said:

The problem I had with these is that the Mk2 MR2 appeared to be better in ever conceivable way, for basically the same money. Mk3's are almost down at this level now too.

The mk2 MR2 doesn't drive anywhere near as well as the TF, in my experience. The mk3 is a better car than either if you can live with the lack of storage space but is still a bit more expensive and is significantly slower in a straight line.

[AW111]

mgrays said:

I would argue for mass production engine of that size/age/weight it was the best. Show me an all alloy, through tie bolt with bottom bearing plate 16V Japanese car engine.. I think Peugeot nearly got there with their 1360cc version but the tie rods stopped short of crank and it was 8V. My MX-5 block weights the same as a complete K series (lifted both of them). Reliability of course comes with completed development...

I agree it's light, but that's not all that makes a good engine.
I have a 1.6l 4 cyl, 20 valves, VVT, independant throttle bodies : made in 1999, 160 hp @ 7,800 rpm from the factory. Redlines at 8250. The manufacturer also did a supercharged version of the same engine, with about the same power.

I am not into kicking the k-series, just pointing out that it was neither especially high-tech nor outstandingly powerful for it's size.
Powerful for it's weight, sure.

And calling the souped up version "Very High Performance" would have had Honda engineers laughing into their saki, although I blame that on the marketing department.

[kambites]

AW111 said:

Powerful for it's weight, sure.

Which I'd argue is one of the most important aspects of a small sports car engine. Capacity, especially, is utterly irrelevant to everything.

Whether you view the VHPD version is living up to its name again depends on what your priorities are. I doubt you'd find another naturally aspirated car engine at the time which weighed less than 100kg fully dressed putting out 190bhp.

Edited by kambites on Friday 28th November 14:18

[vtecyo]

kambites said:

vtecyo said:

paulmaurice99 said:

This. Nice enough cars, but when the MR2 is around for a few hundred more, why bother? Better made, more reliable, far better sports car.

Or a MK2 with the 3S-GE which will outlive cockroaches and is a much better drive for less..

You mean the one which weighs almost twice(!) as much as the K-series?

I'd also argue that the K-series VVC (which admittedly the car in the article above doesn't have) is a much nicer engine to drive, but that's obviously personal preference.


If you'd cited the Honda K20A, you might have had a point.

Edited by kambites on Friday 28th November 13:12

I'm citing the whole car, not just the engine.

kambites said:

Which I'd argue is one of the most important aspects of a small sports car engine. Capacity, especially, is utterly irrelevant to everything.

You're quite argumentative

[kambites]

vtecyo said:

I'm citing the whole car, not just the engine.

Fair enough, but in my experience the mk2 MR2 is just, well, a bit rubbish to drive. I love the mk1 and mk3 but the mk1 had even more rust problems than the MG and the mk3 costs significantly more to buy and is probably no more reliable unless you modify it.

[anonymous-user]

Pickled said:

whythem said:

As an ex NGA machine minder can I say we used to kick, punch and head but the machines at the same time as swearing, which is much more effective in getting a printing press to run.

Attending the riots at Wapping as an NGA union member then lead to attending the race, and poll tax riots of the same time. The best fun though was being coached up to various Welsh mines and rioting there, before attending a football match for a quick riot on the way home. I have a nice scar on my forehead from the pasting I got from a few coppers for punching a horse, great days

Not a bad sporting shed, I remember at the time they were very well regarded by the motoring press in comparison to the MX 5 as a good steer, but they have not aged well, especially the interiors.

Now I'm going to take an opposite view on this, I to was an NGA machine minder in the 80s/90s, and to be honest would rather not have been in the union but back then it was a closed shop - no card? no work. I never felt once the need to strike and nor did anyone I worked with, we were all overpaid to be honest, how many 18 years olds did you know earning over a grand a week in the 80s? Our works carpark wouldn't have been out of place in Canary Wharf.

This.

I know very well how hard it was to work in De La Rue and the ton of money that the lead guys could make. I don't think many professions earned that much more in the 80's. I recall between £2K-£3K pre-tax for a weekend 'bubble shift'. Few pizza's, the odd beer, game of cards.....

The Union's were a daft and ultimately brought the members nothing but trouble.

[Bluebarge]

tezzer said:

Bought Mrs. Tezzer one, brand new on a 55 plate. Roof leaked so badly, despite numerous attempts to fix that we carried a towel around to leave on the seat in case it rained while it was parked.

No thanks, been there, done that.

The hood on these is actually the Mazda MX5 design built under licence. They are adjustable which is what it sounds like yours needed.

[Pickled]

yonex said:

I recall between £2K-£3K pre-tax for a weekend 'bubble shift'. .

If not more, depending if they had a timed bonus scheme in place, in my first year after my apprenticeship finished (1989) I grossed £62k there were some old timers who were doing over £100k without breaking sweat.

[kambites]

Bluebarge said:

The hood on these is actually the Mazda MX5 design built under licence. They are adjustable which is what it sounds like yours needed.

Is it?!? That I didn't know.

[anonymous-user]

AW111 said:

I agree it's light, but that's not all that makes a good engine.
I have a 1.6l 4 cyl, 20 valves, VVT, independant throttle bodies : made in 1999, 160 hp @ 7,800 rpm from the factory. Redlines at 8250. The manufacturer also did a supercharged version of the same engine, with about the same power.

I am not into kicking the k-series, just pointing out that it was neither especially high-tech nor outstandingly powerful for it's size.
Powerful for it's weight, sure.

And calling the souped up version "Very High Performance" would have had Honda engineers laughing into their saki, although I blame that on the marketing department.

And how much torque?.... how tall is it?

The thing is the VHPD got a poor reputation due to how it was put together. The standard version is pretty st tbh. Timing is all over the place, stty bearings, stty liners, nasty KV6 throttle bodies....the list goes on. The design is sound, it was the cheapskate build that killed it.

[Bluebarge]

BlimeyCharlie said:

A 'sportscar' for people who drive them wearing glasses on chains with a baseball cap.

Ahem, I can explain the baseball cap - in summer, the sun is usually above the line of the roof header, making the sun-visor redundant. Sunglasses don't quite deal with the glare without reducing other vision too much, making some kind of cap essential, unless you want to drive around one-handed like a short-sighted sailor.

[FD3Si]

My mum had one of these from 6 months old, had for about 5 years and then sold it on (after the HG went at nearly spot on 30k)
I had the misfortune of selling it for her, meaning I was dailying it for a few months.
Utterly, utterly hated it. At the time my other half had a MK2 MX5 which was nicer to drive, keener to rev, more solidly built, had a better driving position, more reliable, and (in my opinion) far better looking compared to the big, slab sided, flabby arsed, bug faced TF.
The head gasket snuffed, the coolant pipes ruptured, the paint fell off the front bumper, the drivers door had to be opened if you wanted the window to close properly. The engine sounded uninspiring and felt lathargic (it was a 135) and the chassis just felt a bit numb.
The only thing that i had over the '5 was the fact it had leather, and even that was ruined by the fact it was the colour of dog sick. Although that soon changed when it went mouldy because of the leaking roof.

Arguably one of the best 4 pots? Meh. I'd take the 1.6 MX5 block or Toyota's masterpiece 4AGE over it every time. And both were older designs. Far more character - the 1.6 MX5 block is an absolute joy.

Edited by FD3Si on Friday 28th November 14:33

[StarmistBlue400]

Many years ago we went to our local Rover dealer (Dutton Farshaw in Aylesbury) to look at a Rover 25 GTI (or was it VVC) for the OH. Came out with an S reg MGF. WTF, the salesman could see she loved it and stitched me right up.

Had a few issues under warranty but it was a really fun car to drive and great at going sideways and loved to rev.

[hairykrishna]

kambites said:

The mk2 MR2 doesn't drive anywhere near as well as the TF, in my experience. The mk3 is a better car than either if you can live with the lack of storage space but is still a bit more expensive and is significantly slower in a straight line.

I've only driven one TF and it was quite rough so you may well be right. I'm no huge fan of the Mk2 really - I've had one, but I've had three Mk1's!

[anonymous-user]

Pickled said:

If not more, depending if they had a timed bonus scheme in place, in my first year after my apprenticeship finished (1989) I grossed £62k there were some old timers who were doing over £100k without breaking sweat.

Yes, my father used to be on the bank notes it was crazy. He managed to get released on a full final salary pension + inflation on medical grounds when he was in his early 60's. He maintains to this day he kissed the doctor

[Pickled]

yonex said:

Yes, my father used to be on the bank notes it was crazy. He managed to get released on a full final salary pension + inflation on medical grounds when he was in his early 60's. He maintains to this day he kissed the doctor

High Wycombe?

Got a couple of mates still in the print, even on perm nights they struggle to make £35k these days

[Countersteer]

When I came back to the country and wanted a cheap, fun, run-around the choices (for shed money) was this, an MX5 or an MR2, with rusty arches of course. I plumped for the 5. I don't think it was a bad choice to make...