Seat 'lane assist' ad -are driving standards now THAT bad..?
Discussion
ensignia said:
No mate, you're wrong. All this interference and 'elf and safety is what's wrong with this once great country. People can't think for themselves these days, it's a bloody disgrace. First they forced ABS on us, then EBD, then came belt warnings and auto lights. They won't be happy until we're all automatrons like in that Toyota GT86 advert.
Another example of made up s
t.What has a foreign car company fitting lane assist to it's cars got to do with UK health and safety?
SK425 said:
foggy said:
Having read through the thread it needs a few technical aspects explaining as people are getting mixed up about various lane departure warning and keeping technologies.
Ultimately, like all the controls and systems, it's put in the car for the driver to use - you're in charge so you can choose to turn it off in situations where you don't want it, just like the radio (assuming it can be switched on and off simply - people seem to be implying that it can).I have ACC in my Mk7 Golf. The "issue" I have with it is that it works great in many instances but less so in others, requiring the driver to make an informed decision when to use it. In conjunction with a thoughtful driver these assists are great but if relied upon too much they could make for poorer drivers IMHO.
For example driving in a queue of traffic on an A road in a 40mph limit ACC takes the drudgery out of maintaining a sensible separation distance in what is a dull driving experience. The "issue" arises when for example the car in front turns left. A driver would slow to allow the car in front to complete the manouvre and allow the separation distance to reduce. ACC mimicks the action of the driver ahead braking to make the turn resulting in much more abrupt braking. I had to explain to my wife that was the car braking, not me! I am sure the cars following me were less than impressed too. The concern is that it stops becoming my fault - the computer was driving.
foggy said:
The most recent development is Lane Guidance Support (LGS) which interprets the lane markings and provides minor steering inputs via the EPAS to keep the car centred as well as possible between the markings. Depending on the manufacturer and vehicle configuration LGS can function from a standstill up to 200km/h. Again the torque applied is of the order of a few Nm and the driver can easily overcome the LGS effect. The majority of systems require confirmation that the driver still maintains contact with the steering wheel, sensed by some element of resistance to the EPAS applied input or by contact affecting an electronic property (capacitive IIRC), otherwise they time out and advise the drive they are no longer providing support.
To the naysayers and tinfoil hatters amongst us you can be pretty sure that virtually every way you can think of of 'beating the system' has been accounted for, engineered out and tested in multiple software and hardware in the loop tests, track tests and road trip expeditions by the tier one supplier supplying the components, and the process repeated again by the vehicle manufacturer, before it finds it's way into your hands.
Having driven thousands of miles with various generations and iterations of all the systems over the years, for an every day chug around car that I was doing even half decent mileage in I'd always take a well engineered Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) system in combination with an LGS with LKA/LDW every time. For everyday driving ACC looks after speed and headway (I use it everywhere from 20s and 30s to NSL here and abroad) and I've found because LGS interprets the vehicle position relative to the lane markings and tweaks the heading as necessary it makes main road and motorway driving a less tiring experience. Hell there are even production cars out there that offer 'semi-autonomous low speed following' i.e automated steering and speed control in low speed traffic up to 30km/h - absolutely brilliant in stop-start traffic! Team said daily chug around with a fun car for proper driving on interesting drives and track days and you're sorted!
Granted the benefits all these systems offer can be used inappropriately.
That last sentence is exactly my issue. As ever, used sensibly by intelligent people I'm sure they're really useful features. But the fact is, people will use it to drive for them whilst they play with their phones or prop a tablet on the dash and watch a movie.To the naysayers and tinfoil hatters amongst us you can be pretty sure that virtually every way you can think of of 'beating the system' has been accounted for, engineered out and tested in multiple software and hardware in the loop tests, track tests and road trip expeditions by the tier one supplier supplying the components, and the process repeated again by the vehicle manufacturer, before it finds it's way into your hands.
Having driven thousands of miles with various generations and iterations of all the systems over the years, for an every day chug around car that I was doing even half decent mileage in I'd always take a well engineered Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) system in combination with an LGS with LKA/LDW every time. For everyday driving ACC looks after speed and headway (I use it everywhere from 20s and 30s to NSL here and abroad) and I've found because LGS interprets the vehicle position relative to the lane markings and tweaks the heading as necessary it makes main road and motorway driving a less tiring experience. Hell there are even production cars out there that offer 'semi-autonomous low speed following' i.e automated steering and speed control in low speed traffic up to 30km/h - absolutely brilliant in stop-start traffic! Team said daily chug around with a fun car for proper driving on interesting drives and track days and you're sorted!
Granted the benefits all these systems offer can be used inappropriately.
I have a couple of questions that spring immediately to mind (and there are no doubt plenty of other similar scenarios).
You say LGS can operate at any speed from 0 - 200kph and that you use it in 20mph and 30mph sectors, so clearly it works in urban environments. What happens if its driving along steering for you, keeping you in lane, and the Active Cruise Control is looking for obstructions, and there is a car parked agains the kerb requiring you to steer across the white lines slightly to pass. Does it just anchor up behind the parked car?
What if you're cruising along an A road, ACC controlling the speed, LGS doing the steering, set at 60mph, and you reach a T junction?
What if a child is running across the pavement and (were you paying attention) you could see he's about to run straight into the path of your car. Can the ACC see him and ease off in advance, or is it purely reactive (ALERT, there's an obstruction directly in front - apply brakes BANG too late!)
Another question about ACC. As I understand it if the car in front brakes, you brake to maintain distance. What happens if you have it set at 80mph on the motorway, feet off the pedals, car steering merrily away, engrossed in your latest Facebook post when you come up behind stationary queuing traffic? Can it stop in time?
I keep coming back to the same thing, used properly maybe it has some merit. And you've tried it so you are better placed than me to be of that opinion. But, as you say yourself, these systems can be used inappropriately. We're talking about the Great British Public. They're not paying enough attention now - make them believe that the car will brake and steer for them and deal with any emergency and you're effectively licencing driverless cars.
If you look at the technology and engineering that goes into Google driverless cars, it's pretty clear we are a long way from that, yet these systems WILL be expected to deal with situations in the absence of any input from behind the wheel 'cos it drives itself mate, innit'.
ensignia said:
This place is full of bitter old luddites who'll find reason to complain about any new technology. It's getting extremely tiresome; I'm sure the days of having a manual choke and seats with no headrests were better.
Lane Assist is a useful feature to have, it'll probably help lane discipline and keep people more alert. How exactly is this a bad thing? I'm sure no one's completely reliant on this, it's just a nice feature to have as a safety net. After all, not everyone is a driving god like all the players on here.
Are you really sure? Based on what, the Great British Public's current exemplary driving standards? Lane Assist is a useful feature to have, it'll probably help lane discipline and keep people more alert. How exactly is this a bad thing? I'm sure no one's completely reliant on this, it's just a nice feature to have as a safety net. After all, not everyone is a driving god like all the players on here.
Ari said:
Are you really sure? Based on what, the Great British Public's current exemplary driving standards?
We have some of the safest roads in the world. People on PH constantly bang on about poor and/or declining standards on our roads yet I have not seen any evidence that this has any basis in fact. Ari said:
That last sentence is exactly my issue. As ever, used sensibly by intelligent people I'm sure they're really useful features. But the fact is, people will use it to drive for them whilst they play with their phones or prop a tablet on the dash and watch a movie.
I have a couple of questions that spring immediately to mind (and there are no doubt plenty of other similar scenarios).
You say LGS can operate at any speed from 0 - 200kph and that you use it in 20mph and 30mph sectors, so clearly it works in urban environments. What happens if its driving along steering for you, keeping you in lane, and the Active Cruise Control is looking for obstructions, and there is a car parked agains the kerb requiring you to steer across the white lines slightly to pass. Does it just anchor up behind the parked car?
What if you're cruising along an A road, ACC controlling the speed, LGS doing the steering, set at 60mph, and you reach a T junction?
What if a child is running across the pavement and (were you paying attention) you could see he's about to run straight into the path of your car. Can the ACC see him and ease off in advance, or is it purely reactive (ALERT, there's an obstruction directly in front - apply brakes BANG too late!)
Another question about ACC. As I understand it if the car in front brakes, you brake to maintain distance. What happens if you have it set at 80mph on the motorway, feet off the pedals, car steering merrily away, engrossed in your latest Facebook post when you come up behind stationary queuing traffic? Can it stop in time?
I keep coming back to the same thing, used properly maybe it has some merit. And you've tried it so you are better placed than me to be of that opinion. But, as you say yourself, these systems can be used inappropriately. We're talking about the Great British Public. They're not paying enough attention now - make them believe that the car will brake and steer for them and deal with any emergency and you're effectively licencing driverless cars.
If you look at the technology and engineering that goes into Google driverless cars, it's pretty clear we are a long way from that, yet these systems WILL be expected to deal with situations in the absence of any input from behind the wheel 'cos it drives itself mate, innit'.
You need to drive a car with these features to understand how they work. Manufacturers aren't morons and they do think of these things. It can't be used inappropriately as it has saefty features built in, like it turns off after 5 seconds when it realises you haven't got your hands on the wheel, or it starts beeping at you when it realises you haven't looked at the road in some seconds.I have a couple of questions that spring immediately to mind (and there are no doubt plenty of other similar scenarios).
You say LGS can operate at any speed from 0 - 200kph and that you use it in 20mph and 30mph sectors, so clearly it works in urban environments. What happens if its driving along steering for you, keeping you in lane, and the Active Cruise Control is looking for obstructions, and there is a car parked agains the kerb requiring you to steer across the white lines slightly to pass. Does it just anchor up behind the parked car?
What if you're cruising along an A road, ACC controlling the speed, LGS doing the steering, set at 60mph, and you reach a T junction?
What if a child is running across the pavement and (were you paying attention) you could see he's about to run straight into the path of your car. Can the ACC see him and ease off in advance, or is it purely reactive (ALERT, there's an obstruction directly in front - apply brakes BANG too late!)
Another question about ACC. As I understand it if the car in front brakes, you brake to maintain distance. What happens if you have it set at 80mph on the motorway, feet off the pedals, car steering merrily away, engrossed in your latest Facebook post when you come up behind stationary queuing traffic? Can it stop in time?
I keep coming back to the same thing, used properly maybe it has some merit. And you've tried it so you are better placed than me to be of that opinion. But, as you say yourself, these systems can be used inappropriately. We're talking about the Great British Public. They're not paying enough attention now - make them believe that the car will brake and steer for them and deal with any emergency and you're effectively licencing driverless cars.
If you look at the technology and engineering that goes into Google driverless cars, it's pretty clear we are a long way from that, yet these systems WILL be expected to deal with situations in the absence of any input from behind the wheel 'cos it drives itself mate, innit'.
Would you please relax and go try it out.
Devil2575 said:
People on PH constantly bang on about poor and/or declining standards on our roads yet I have not seen any evidence that this has any basis in fact.
Turn off the ACC and Lane Assist, look up from the iPad and see what the driving standards around you are like, then you might change your mind... 
Ari's having a shocker in this thread.
Manufacturers devote millions of pounds and man hours to perfect the technology and cover virtually every scenario. It's all very clever when you think about it, yet some bloke from Somerset thinks he knows better and says it's dangerous.
To claim that people will completely rely on it and look at their phones more as a result is quite frankly ridiculous.
Manufacturers devote millions of pounds and man hours to perfect the technology and cover virtually every scenario. It's all very clever when you think about it, yet some bloke from Somerset thinks he knows better and says it's dangerous.
To claim that people will completely rely on it and look at their phones more as a result is quite frankly ridiculous.
chrispj said:
Devil2575 said:
People on PH constantly bang on about poor and/or declining standards on our roads yet I have not seen any evidence that this has any basis in fact.
Turn off the ACC and Lane Assist, look up from the iPad and see what the driving standards around you are like, then you might change your mind... After driving to Tehran from Sheffield in 2012 I can guarantee that the driving standards in this country and excellent.
Sump said:
I find that people complaining are the ones that haven't travelled the world.
I'd agree driving standards are shocking in many places outside the UK. Being driven at night on the wrong side of the unfinished dual-carriageway round the outskirts of Luanda (having woken up with the pick-up bouncing as the driver traversed cones and oil drums to get up the access ramp!) is one of the more memorable experiences I've had. Lane assist wouldn't have helped much there though!Lane assist is an answer looking for a problem that really shouldn't exist. City-safe braking I can understand and go with, but if you can't keep a car between 2 white lines then WTF are you doing driving? It will be used by people to help them pay even less attention to what they're doing when driving which, until fully autonomous cars come in, is a BAD thing.
chrispj said:
Devil2575 said:
People on PH constantly bang on about poor and/or declining standards on our roads yet I have not seen any evidence that this has any basis in fact.
Turn off the ACC and Lane Assist, look up from the iPad and see what the driving standards around you are like, then you might change your mind... I don't think the issue is with lane assist per se but the direction these systems are leading us towards automated cars and the "art of driving" will become not just a thing of the past but positively dissuaded.
These statements should ring some alarm bells for driving enthusiasts:
Despite the challenges, using leading-edge technology to replace our current system that “consists of old, poorly maintained vehicles operated by poorly trained, easily distracted, unsupervised individuals has a lot of potential for safety gains,” Smith says. (Bryant Walker Smith - fellow at the center for automotive research at Stamford University)
“People shouldn’t think that there will never be an accident,” says Ron Medford, Google’s director of safety for self-driving cars. Autonomous cars will be ?“much, much better than a human,” he says, but they won’t be perfect.
Source:: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2014/0...
These statements should ring some alarm bells for driving enthusiasts:
Despite the challenges, using leading-edge technology to replace our current system that “consists of old, poorly maintained vehicles operated by poorly trained, easily distracted, unsupervised individuals has a lot of potential for safety gains,” Smith says. (Bryant Walker Smith - fellow at the center for automotive research at Stamford University)
“People shouldn’t think that there will never be an accident,” says Ron Medford, Google’s director of safety for self-driving cars. Autonomous cars will be ?“much, much better than a human,” he says, but they won’t be perfect.
Source:: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2014/0...
Edited by Tony33 on Sunday 14th December 19:41
Blue Oval84 said:
I predict that this thread is going to be overwhelmed with PH'ers who have never, ever-
a) Made a mistake or-
b) Got drowsy at the wheel
My mate awoke to find himself half under the rear wheels of a lorry, travelling sideways at 50 mph, on the M5 one evening. He'd been travelling daily from Solihull to Stonehouse, for 9 months, doing a full days work with overtime, and driving back the same day. a) Made a mistake or-
b) Got drowsy at the wheel
Before that, I'd have said that of all the people I knew he was the one I'd least expect to crash, and most likely to not fall asleep, taking his own personal safety and responsibilities to other road users very seriously.
He describes the experience as bowel opening.
Devil2575 said:
I drive a 12 year old diesel focus and I don't own an IPad. The fundamental problem is that you think personal observations are good evidence of anything. Ksi numbers are at an all time low, our roads are some of the safest roads in the world and I read something from the insurance industry that accident rates were falling. Show me some evidence of poor standards and I'll listen, but I'm not interested in random observations that are subject to personal bias and based on an individual opinion of what constitutes poor driving. They are also completely without quantification. How many examples of poor driving do you observe compared to the total number of drivers seen
You must be a Windows Mobile type of guy then... We're obviously approaching this from totally irreconcilable viewpoints. I don't think insurance statistics are the be-all and end-all as something doesn't have to cause an accident to be an example of poor driving standards. Middle-lane hogging on a motorway at 60 miles an hour won't directly lead to accidents as other drivers adapt to the individual's behaviour, but it's an example of lazy, inconsiderate and indeed poor driving that we all see probably every time we go on the motorway. Still, if it doesn't cause an accident then by your criteria it's not a problem?chrispj said:
You must be a Windows Mobile type of guy then... We're obviously approaching this from totally irreconcilable viewpoints. I don't think insurance statistics are the be-all and end-all as something doesn't have to cause an accident to be an example of poor driving standards. Middle-lane hogging on a motorway at 60 miles an hour won't directly lead to accidents as other drivers adapt to the individual's behaviour, but it's an example of lazy, inconsiderate and indeed poor driving that we all see probably every time we go on the motorway. Still, if it doesn't cause an accident then by your criteria it's not a problem?
Yes, but as we're talking about manufacturers fitting safety features to cars I kind of took it as red that the discussion was in relation to behaviours that had the potential to lead to accidents.In fact i'm not sure how things that would come under the catagory of common courtesty and consideration for other road users is even relevant to the topic.
Statistics are good because they allow us to quantify something. Personal experiences don't, not least because of the limitiations of the human memory.
What i'm saying is that you may percieve that the standard of driving in this country is poor and/or getting worse but there is no proper evidence to support this perception.
Sump said:
Ari said:
That last sentence is exactly my issue. As ever, used sensibly by intelligent people I'm sure they're really useful features. But the fact is, people will use it to drive for them whilst they play with their phones or prop a tablet on the dash and watch a movie.
I have a couple of questions that spring immediately to mind (and there are no doubt plenty of other similar scenarios).
You say LGS can operate at any speed from 0 - 200kph and that you use it in 20mph and 30mph sectors, so clearly it works in urban environments. What happens if its driving along steering for you, keeping you in lane, and the Active Cruise Control is looking for obstructions, and there is a car parked agains the kerb requiring you to steer across the white lines slightly to pass. Does it just anchor up behind the parked car?
What if you're cruising along an A road, ACC controlling the speed, LGS doing the steering, set at 60mph, and you reach a T junction?
What if a child is running across the pavement and (were you paying attention) you could see he's about to run straight into the path of your car. Can the ACC see him and ease off in advance, or is it purely reactive (ALERT, there's an obstruction directly in front - apply brakes BANG too late!)
Another question about ACC. As I understand it if the car in front brakes, you brake to maintain distance. What happens if you have it set at 80mph on the motorway, feet off the pedals, car steering merrily away, engrossed in your latest Facebook post when you come up behind stationary queuing traffic? Can it stop in time?
I keep coming back to the same thing, used properly maybe it has some merit. And you've tried it so you are better placed than me to be of that opinion. But, as you say yourself, these systems can be used inappropriately. We're talking about the Great British Public. They're not paying enough attention now - make them believe that the car will brake and steer for them and deal with any emergency and you're effectively licencing driverless cars.
If you look at the technology and engineering that goes into Google driverless cars, it's pretty clear we are a long way from that, yet these systems WILL be expected to deal with situations in the absence of any input from behind the wheel 'cos it drives itself mate, innit'.
You need to drive a car with these features to understand how they work. Manufacturers aren't morons and they do think of these things. It can't be used inappropriately as it has saefty features built in, like it turns off after 5 seconds when it realises you haven't got your hands on the wheel, or it starts beeping at you when it realises you haven't looked at the road in some seconds.I have a couple of questions that spring immediately to mind (and there are no doubt plenty of other similar scenarios).
You say LGS can operate at any speed from 0 - 200kph and that you use it in 20mph and 30mph sectors, so clearly it works in urban environments. What happens if its driving along steering for you, keeping you in lane, and the Active Cruise Control is looking for obstructions, and there is a car parked agains the kerb requiring you to steer across the white lines slightly to pass. Does it just anchor up behind the parked car?
What if you're cruising along an A road, ACC controlling the speed, LGS doing the steering, set at 60mph, and you reach a T junction?
What if a child is running across the pavement and (were you paying attention) you could see he's about to run straight into the path of your car. Can the ACC see him and ease off in advance, or is it purely reactive (ALERT, there's an obstruction directly in front - apply brakes BANG too late!)
Another question about ACC. As I understand it if the car in front brakes, you brake to maintain distance. What happens if you have it set at 80mph on the motorway, feet off the pedals, car steering merrily away, engrossed in your latest Facebook post when you come up behind stationary queuing traffic? Can it stop in time?
I keep coming back to the same thing, used properly maybe it has some merit. And you've tried it so you are better placed than me to be of that opinion. But, as you say yourself, these systems can be used inappropriately. We're talking about the Great British Public. They're not paying enough attention now - make them believe that the car will brake and steer for them and deal with any emergency and you're effectively licencing driverless cars.
If you look at the technology and engineering that goes into Google driverless cars, it's pretty clear we are a long way from that, yet these systems WILL be expected to deal with situations in the absence of any input from behind the wheel 'cos it drives itself mate, innit'.
Would you please relax and go try it out.
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