The perfect 2/3 car combination?
Discussion
Blu... yes... it wasn't a proper Range Rover.. apples... oranges. 
Blu3R said:
I ran a RR Sport for a few months (I know most will suggest that's not a proper RR) and quite frankly I just didn't get it at all. Compared to my E61 5 series estate it was worse in just about every way that I measure a road CAR. People ask me what it was like to drive and I always tell them it was the most comfortable van I've ever driven. It was like one of those children's playground things with the wooden shape nailed to one huge spring.
RobM77 said:
That's certainly why most people buy them for exclusive road use; it just surprised me to see quite so many 'car people' doing that (way more than we've seen Caterhams, BMWs, Lotuses, classics, Minis or other typical petrolhead cars). I realise that I'm into handling and driving, but I know petrolheads into looks, nostalgia, sound, engineering etc, but I've just yet to meet any who are into a 'commanding driving position'. The only petrolhead I've ever known with an off roader for road use is an off road nut (ex racer in fact) who uses it off road on a regular basis. I'm clearly mixing with more of a sub-set of petrolheads than I realised 
That's why we love light, powerful, visceral and highly involving sports cars, because anything less would be a substandard sports car and would not represent the ultimate (funds permitting) in the discipline we want. Non petrol heads care more about the brand, looks and other such factors. Whereas a true petrolhead requires the full package, the car has to be good enough in doing what it does for us to buy it, a cute design or nice brand is not going to cut it on its own.
For me, and I count myself as an obsessive petrolhead, the Range Rover simply cannot be matched in what it does. It hauls my stock in the back as well as a van, it takes my family on long road trips as well as an S Class, it can pass over muddy fields and dirt tracks as well as a jeep, and it's image is acceptable whether I am visiting business suppliers or using the valet at a top hotel.
That's why I love it. I need the functions like big loading capacity for carrying loads of stock, comfy ride for doing 10 hour drives, etc. So other cars would be a compromise. And being a petrolhead is all about finding the ultimate car for what you need it to do, it's non-prtrolheads who accept compromise.
AndrewCrown said:
My Dear Chap... comparing a Range Rover Vogue with BMW X5 is a complete anathema to me.... I would be like me saying a Lotus 2-eleven is like a Toyota Celica 190/T... they might share an engine... but that is where the similarity ends.
I would be interested to see the source of this 'tipping data' you quote.
On hard point height...I acknowledge there is some work to be done there across the whole industry and all vehicles, High and low (Lotus) but not purely applicable to RR.... and there are so many more mitigating factors when we start down the safety angle... e.g. DIA, Inexperience, road conditions, driver error, tyre condition.
The RR is quality British engineering in a package which is endlessly useful and is a matter of taste.
The two things that define a car's handling the most are the weight distribution, drive and CofG, so the 2-11 is completely different to the Celica - the MR2 would have been a far better comparison. The Range Rover is, by that measure, very similar to an X5 in the way it drives, at least it is to me.I would be interested to see the source of this 'tipping data' you quote.
On hard point height...I acknowledge there is some work to be done there across the whole industry and all vehicles, High and low (Lotus) but not purely applicable to RR.... and there are so many more mitigating factors when we start down the safety angle... e.g. DIA, Inexperience, road conditions, driver error, tyre condition.
The RR is quality British engineering in a package which is endlessly useful and is a matter of taste.
RobM77 said:
Hi Andrew. I confess I haven't spent a week in one. I did have an X5 for a week a few years ago though. The trouble is I never drive off road, so the benefits were lost on me. It did the mpg of a Ferrari, yet had the straight line performance of a Yaris. The ride and handling were impressive for what it was, but I couldn't say it drove much better than something like a Vectra or Mondeo. It didn't have roof bars, but if it did how would I get my windsurf board on and off the roof?! The bulk and poor handling also made it a poor companion on the country roads in the area I live. Now, I realise that a RR is better off road and more luxurious than an X5, but given that I don't drive off road I can't help but think how superior a 5 series estate would be in every way: a bigger more usable boot, more comfortable, more mpg, more performance, better handling, accessible roof bars, vastly cheaper running costs, etc. Don't get me wrong, if I had to drive properly off road and take the same vehicle on long drives, I'd have a RR in a heartbeat. For use on the road though, sorry, I just don't get it. And this is before we get onto the subject of safety. I realise things have improved since the old days, when they'd roll dramatically at quite modest speeds if you cornered too hard (Fifth Gear famously had an S1 tumbling after a 40mph swerve), but they still have an alarming tendency to tip over in accidents, not to mention cause hideous damage to other cars due to the difference in hard point height, both of which I've been unlucky enough to witness first hand in the last few years.
Edited by AndrewCrown on Tuesday 16th December 23:47
The rollover tendency is infamous. Fifth Gear did a demonstration where they went to a runway with two cars and got one to follow the other. The test was that the one in front brakes and the one behind swerves to avoid it. With a Mondeo and an X Type they got up to 120mph and the X Type just swerved - from memory above 100mph it spun, but it stopped on the runway unscathed. The Range Rover at 40mph didnt just rollover, it flipped several times and landed upside down. A family friend of ours had the same thing happen. Fifth Gear did another crash test with a side impact between a Shogun and a Civic where they drove the Shogun into the side of the Civic at something like 50mph; the first shocking thing was that the Shogun's bumper impacted the far side of the Civic, but then the Shogun yawed ever so slightly to one side due to the impact and sure enough, rolled over. Newer off roaders are better, but the tendency still exists; as I said I've passed several nasty accidents in recent years where it has happened. Only last year I arrived shortly after an accident on the M27 where a Range Rover was lying upside down in lane 1, presumably having tried to take an exit at the last minute - it appeared to be the only car involved. I don't wish to dwell on the safety argument though, for it's even more off topic than my original query regarding RRs!
sealtt said:
RobM77 said:
That's certainly why most people buy them for exclusive road use; it just surprised me to see quite so many 'car people' doing that (way more than we've seen Caterhams, BMWs, Lotuses, classics, Minis or other typical petrolhead cars). I realise that I'm into handling and driving, but I know petrolheads into looks, nostalgia, sound, engineering etc, but I've just yet to meet any who are into a 'commanding driving position'. The only petrolhead I've ever known with an off roader for road use is an off road nut (ex racer in fact) who uses it off road on a regular basis. I'm clearly mixing with more of a sub-set of petrolheads than I realised That's why we love light, powerful, visceral and highly involving sports cars, because anything less would be a substandard sports car and would not represent the ultimate (funds permitting) in the discipline we want. Non petrol heads care more about the brand, looks and other such factors. Whereas a true petrolhead requires the full package, the car has to be good enough in doing what it does for us to buy it, a cute design or nice brand is not going to cut it on its own.
For me, and I count myself as an obsessive petrolhead, the Range Rover simply cannot be matched in what it does. It hauls my stock in the back as well as a van, it takes my family on long road trips as well as an S Class, it can pass over muddy fields and dirt tracks as well as a jeep, and it's image is acceptable whether I am visiting business suppliers or using the valet at a top hotel.
That's why I love it. I need the functions like big loading capacity for carrying loads of stock, comfy ride for doing 10 hour drives, etc. So other cars would be a compromise. And being a petrolhead is all about finding the ultimate car for what you need it to do, it's non-prtrolheads who accept compromise.
There's certainly no question that they excel at blending off road and road use, but that is a huge compromise, particularly in the road environement. I'm not criticising Range Rovers - they are wonderful at what they do, they truly are. I'm simply curious as to why so many petrolheads have them on a dream garage list, because they can't all be driving off road, surely? Even where I live out in the country, very few people drive off road - for starters most of the land is private, so once you rule out farmers you're down to the small minority who belong to clubs and go green laning and the like, and surely it's unlikely that everyone who does that has posted on this thread, given they must be, what, 5% of PHers? less maybe? Wanting one purely for road use just seems strange to me, especially when you've got the ability to own two other cars and it's a dream garage. Take the Maserati Quattroporte for example - it's a beautiful four door with a lovely engine, four seats, big boot, comfortable ride etc. Now raise that two feet so you wreck the handling and make the roof bars inaccessible, give it four wheel drive to further mess up the handling, add some weight, change the tyres for off-road capable ones, and flip the boot the other way round so stuff can't lie in it, it needs to be stacked - why is that so much more appealing? I'm not criticising the RR for it's raison d'etre: being a dual purpose vehicle, I'm just curious as to why it's so much more appealing for pure road use than all the other four door wonder machines there are out there like the Quattroporte, Rapide, AMG S Class, AMG E Class, M5 etc (knock the AMGs and Ms of if you don't like fast cars). What does the RR do that those cars can't do, if we remove off roading and the high towing capacity, both of which most people will never use (I can tow a racing car pretty well with my 'little' 3 series; do PHers really tow much that's bigger and heavier than a track car plus spares?).Maserati for wheel drive: http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Search-Results/F... for family stuff and winter
Lagonda V12 for weekends and relaxing
McLaren (maybe the P1) run around and fun on track
Lagonda V12 for weekends and relaxing
McLaren (maybe the P1) run around and fun on track
RobM77 said:
sealtt said:
RobM77 said:
That's certainly why most people buy them for exclusive road use; it just surprised me to see quite so many 'car people' doing that (way more than we've seen Caterhams, BMWs, Lotuses, classics, Minis or other typical petrolhead cars). I realise that I'm into handling and driving, but I know petrolheads into looks, nostalgia, sound, engineering etc, but I've just yet to meet any who are into a 'commanding driving position'. The only petrolhead I've ever known with an off roader for road use is an off road nut (ex racer in fact) who uses it off road on a regular basis. I'm clearly mixing with more of a sub-set of petrolheads than I realised That's why we love light, powerful, visceral and highly involving sports cars, because anything less would be a substandard sports car and would not represent the ultimate (funds permitting) in the discipline we want. Non petrol heads care more about the brand, looks and other such factors. Whereas a true petrolhead requires the full package, the car has to be good enough in doing what it does for us to buy it, a cute design or nice brand is not going to cut it on its own.
For me, and I count myself as an obsessive petrolhead, the Range Rover simply cannot be matched in what it does. It hauls my stock in the back as well as a van, it takes my family on long road trips as well as an S Class, it can pass over muddy fields and dirt tracks as well as a jeep, and it's image is acceptable whether I am visiting business suppliers or using the valet at a top hotel.
That's why I love it. I need the functions like big loading capacity for carrying loads of stock, comfy ride for doing 10 hour drives, etc. So other cars would be a compromise. And being a petrolhead is all about finding the ultimate car for what you need it to do, it's non-prtrolheads who accept compromise.
There's certainly no question that they excel at blending off road and road use, but that is a huge compromise, particularly in the road environement. I'm not criticising Range Rovers - they are wonderful at what they do, they truly are. I'm simply curious as to why so many petrolheads have them on a dream garage list, because they can't all be driving off road, surely? Even where I live out in the country, very few people drive off road - for starters most of the land is private, so once you rule out farmers you're down to the small minority who belong to clubs and go green laning and the like, and surely it's unlikely that everyone who does that has posted on this thread, given they must be, what, 5% of PHers? less maybe? Wanting one purely for road use just seems strange to me, especially when you've got the ability to own two other cars and it's a dream garage. Take the Maserati Quattroporte for example - it's a beautiful four door with a lovely engine, four seats, big boot, comfortable ride etc. Now raise that two feet so you wreck the handling and make the roof bars inaccessible, give it four wheel drive to further mess up the handling, add some weight, change the tyres for off-road capable ones, and flip the boot the other way round so stuff can't lie in it, it needs to be stacked - why is that so much more appealing? I'm not criticising the RR for it's raison d'etre: being a dual purpose vehicle, I'm just curious as to why it's so much more appealing for pure road use than all the other four door wonder machines there are out there like the Quattroporte, Rapide, AMG S Class, AMG E Class, M5 etc (knock the AMGs and Ms of if you don't like fast cars). What does the RR do that those cars can't do, if we remove off roading and the high towing capacity, both of which most people will never use (I can tow a racing car pretty well with my 'little' 3 series; do PHers really tow much that's bigger and heavier than a track car plus spares?).I have no interest in any of the cars that you list. I would quite like a RR. I think it is because I see the others as a bit lame - big lumps pretending to be "sporty", whereas the RR is just what it is - big, comfy, luxurious, practical and relatively handsome. It would have to have a petrol V8, though, otherwise you really are either a farmer or a tosser, but certainly not a petrol head
Within reason, (£25-30k all in)
I'd trade my existing W211 E Class estate for a newer version (late facelift 211/early 212).
I'd chop the wife's ancient Clio in for a Cooper S (if in London) or a GTI (if not).
And I'd add an E46 M3.
In reality, though, once I'd spunked £20k on the first two I'd find it really hard to spend another £10k on a toy.
Money no object it would be E63/RS6, M3, 991.
I'd trade my existing W211 E Class estate for a newer version (late facelift 211/early 212).
I'd chop the wife's ancient Clio in for a Cooper S (if in London) or a GTI (if not).
And I'd add an E46 M3.
In reality, though, once I'd spunked £20k on the first two I'd find it really hard to spend another £10k on a toy.
Money no object it would be E63/RS6, M3, 991.
RobM77 said:
There's certainly no question that they excel at blending off road and road use, but that is a huge compromise, particularly in the road environement. I'm not criticising Range Rovers - they are wonderful at what they do, they truly are. I'm simply curious as to why so many petrolheads have them on a dream garage list, because they can't all be driving off road, surely? Even where I live out in the country, very few people drive off road - for starters most of the land is private, so once you rule out farmers you're down to the small minority who belong to clubs and go green laning and the like, and surely it's unlikely that everyone who does that has posted on this thread, given they must be, what, 5% of PHers? less maybe? Wanting one purely for road use just seems strange to me, especially when you've got the ability to own two other cars and it's a dream garage. Take the Maserati Quattroporte for example - it's a beautiful four door with a lovely engine, four seats, big boot, comfortable ride etc. Now raise that two feet so you wreck the handling and make the roof bars inaccessible, give it four wheel drive to further mess up the handling, add some weight, change the tyres for off-road capable ones, and flip the boot the other way round so stuff can't lie in it, it needs to be stacked - why is that so much more appealing? I'm not criticising the RR for it's raison d'etre: being a dual purpose vehicle, I'm just curious as to why it's so much more appealing for pure road use than all the other four door wonder machines there are out there like the Quattroporte, Rapide, AMG S Class, AMG E Class, M5 etc (knock the AMGs and Ms of if you don't like fast cars). What does the RR do that those cars can't do, if we remove off roading and the high towing capacity, both of which most people will never use (I can tow a racing car pretty well with my 'little' 3 series; do PHers really tow much that's bigger and heavier than a track car plus spares?).
RobM77 said:
There's certainly no question that they excel at blending off road and road use, but that is a huge compromise, particularly in the road environement. I'm not criticising Range Rovers - they are wonderful at what they do, they truly are. I'm simply curious as to why so many petrolheads have them on a dream garage list, because they can't all be driving off road, surely? Even where I live out in the country, very few people drive off road - for starters most of the land is private, so once you rule out farmers you're down to the small minority who belong to clubs and go green laning and the like, and surely it's unlikely that everyone who does that has posted on this thread, given they must be, what, 5% of PHers? less maybe? Wanting one purely for road use just seems strange to me, especially when you've got the ability to own two other cars and it's a dream garage. Take the Maserati Quattroporte for example - it's a beautiful four door with a lovely engine, four seats, big boot, comfortable ride etc. Now raise that two feet so you wreck the handling and make the roof bars inaccessible, give it four wheel drive to further mess up the handling, add some weight, change the tyres for off-road capable ones, and flip the boot the other way round so stuff can't lie in it, it needs to be stacked - why is that so much more appealing? I'm not criticising the RR for it's raison d'etre: being a dual purpose vehicle, I'm just curious as to why it's so much more appealing for pure road use than all the other four door wonder machines there are out there like the Quattroporte, Rapide, AMG S Class, AMG E Class, M5 etc (knock the AMGs and Ms of if you don't like fast cars). What does the RR do that those cars can't do, if we remove off roading and the high towing capacity, both of which most people will never use (I can tow a racing car pretty well with my 'little' 3 series; do PHers really tow much that's bigger and heavier than a track car plus spares?).None of the other cars in the list could match it for these features - I had a brand new m6 before I bought this RR and it was definitely not close.
That's what it does best for me, I'm sure you will find for most people it's a blend of abilities, be it luxury, off-roading, towing, carrying, etc, etc that the RR does in a way nothing else can. I didn't buy into the idea until my girdlriend persuaded me to get one as she thought it ridiculous as I tried to load 500kg of boxes into a coupe - and I refused to buy a van! Only afterwards did I realise how good it is at everything else.
GusB said:
I am a fan of the Mkv 5 Golf R32 (5 door) and a Ferrari 599 HGTE combination of cars personally... covers most bases...
GusB
If the current Golf R had a V6 (even a lightly blown one) rather than a 4-pot, it would be very hard to resist as 1 of 2 cars.GusB
My actual 2 car garage:-
(1) 3 series estate
Because (1) we have a baby coming, which means we need a big boot, apparently, (2) the 3er pisses on all other big cars that I have driven for handling and (3) I won the argument and avoided an SUV.
(2) Cayman S
Because (1) I aint giving it up, (2) you cannot(really)fit babies in 911s so the baby would always go in the bigger car anyway and (3) there is plenty of time to switch, if I am not driving the Porsche enough, to an E92 M3.
RobM77 said:
if we remove off roading and the high towing capacity, both of which most people will never use
do PHers really tow much that's bigger and heavier than a track car plus spares?
But they do.do PHers really tow much that's bigger and heavier than a track car plus spares?
I don't own a RR although if I had enough spare cash I would certainly consider one - currently I use Isuzu TF because I do use 4WD (only on fields) and I do need to tow 3+ tons.
A mate on here uses a modified LandCruiser but if he could afford it he'd use a RR too.
Quite a few builders, farmers, horse riders etc I know run them - or let their wives run them - but use them when their van lets them down or can't cope and they will use a brand new RR to tow the mini digger / trailer / horse box across a field.
V8RX7 said:
RobM77 said:
if we remove off roading and the high towing capacity, both of which most people will never use
do PHers really tow much that's bigger and heavier than a track car plus spares?
But they do.do PHers really tow much that's bigger and heavier than a track car plus spares?
I don't own a RR although if I had enough spare cash I would certainly consider one - currently I use Isuzu TF because I do use 4WD (only on fields) and I do need to tow 3+ tons.
A mate on here uses a modified LandCruiser but if he could afford it he'd use a RR too.
Quite a few builders, farmers, horse riders etc I know run them - or let their wives run them - but use them when their van lets them down or can't cope and they will use a brand new RR to tow the mini digger / trailer / horse box across a field.
Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 18th December 11:26
Ideally a MPV (with four wheel drive, but not a 4x4), big V8, something mindblowingly fast.
Current stable:
2013 Zafira B 1.6 (lacks 4wd, but comfie, dirt cheap and 'useful')
2000 HSV GTS VT2
Street legal ex-Street Eliminator Audi Coupe that still runs 0-170 in around 8.5 seconds
If I could change any thing:
Swap the Zafo for an R-class Merc
Add a supercharger to the HSV
Add a few more horses to the Audi
Current stable:
2013 Zafira B 1.6 (lacks 4wd, but comfie, dirt cheap and 'useful')
2000 HSV GTS VT2
Street legal ex-Street Eliminator Audi Coupe that still runs 0-170 in around 8.5 seconds
If I could change any thing:
Swap the Zafo for an R-class Merc
Add a supercharger to the HSV
Add a few more horses to the Audi
RobM77 said:
V8RX7 said:
RobM77 said:
if we remove off roading and the high towing capacity, both of which most people will never use
do PHers really tow much that's bigger and heavier than a track car plus spares?
But they do.do PHers really tow much that's bigger and heavier than a track car plus spares?
I don't own a RR although if I had enough spare cash I would certainly consider one - currently I use Isuzu TF because I do use 4WD (only on fields) and I do need to tow 3+ tons.
A mate on here uses a modified LandCruiser but if he could afford it he'd use a RR too.
Quite a few builders, farmers, horse riders etc I know run them - or let their wives run them - but use them when their van lets them down or can't cope and they will use a brand new RR to tow the mini digger / trailer / horse box across a field.
If you live in a City I'm sure your experience is different.
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