What makes a good road car?

[toon10]

I can't see jack squat when reversing the XC90 with tints at night.

[otolith]

TurboHatchback said:

As the title really, what qualities or features do you think make a really good road car (for the UK)? Maybe I'm getting old and boring but what I look for in a road car has completely changed since I started driving. I used to look for light weight, screaming engines, manual gearboxes, no driver aids, minimal gadgets and two doors. Now I look for exactly the opposite.

What I now think makes a good road car:

• Comfy seats
• Forgiving suspension/good ride comfort
• Refinement
• Good sound system
• Automatic gearbox
• Safe chassis biased towards understeer with ABS and ESP. Preferably AWD.
• An engine with big low end and mid range power, not so fussed about top end
• Huge mechanical grip
• Automatic, electric, heated everything
• Four doors & lots of luggage space
• Big fuel tank

What I think is completely irrelevant 99.99% of the time in a road car:

• Manual gearshifting
• Steering feel
• Handling
• Revving to 9000rpm

On a track I would swap those lists round but for the road I really think all the 'PH' qualities that many on here claim to want are just annoyances most of the time. What's your opinion?

You have to differentiate between what makes good road transport and what makes a fun car to drive on the road, because the two are often entirely at odds.

We have an Elise which has;

• Manual gearshifting
• Steering feel
• Handling
• Revving to 9000rpm

(and lots of grip, and not bad ride comfort)

and a Saab 9-5 Aero estate which has;

• Comfy seats
• Forgiving suspension/good ride comfort
• Refinement
• Good sound system
• Safe chassis biased towards understeer with ABS and ESP.
• An engine with big low end and mid range power, not so fussed about top end
• Automatic, electric, heated everything
• Four doors & lots of luggage space
• Big fuel tank

(and a manual gearbox)

The Saab is a much more comfortable and practical way to travel. But it's not really fun to drive. The Lotus is huge fun, but it's noisy and tiring and impractical. Anyone who isn't into cars (and more to the point, into driving cars) would take the Saab any day.

Most cars are some kind of compromise between these objectives of being pleasant places to travel and engaging machines to drive. Quite where you want to settle depends on your circumstances and on how many cars you are willing to own. I actually use the Lotus more often than I do the Saab, but do fewer miles because the Saab comes out for long motorway trips for holidays or visits to relatives.

[dbdb]

skyrover said:

In terms of pleasantness to drive and be driven I would say the number one key is "smoothness".

To get "smoothness" you want:

1. Torque, lots of it.
2. Automatic gears
3. Softly sprung
4. Soft, cushy seats

Other aspects to improve the driving/driven experience:

5. A quiet well sealed interior
6. A lofty driving position
7. Light steering
8. Tinted glass
9. Space... legroom and elbow room, as much as possible
10. A quality sound system that integrates with modern phones etc
11. Solid, weighty switches and a grippy, chunky steering wheel.
12. Plenty of storage for all your junk.

This is quite a good list and I agree with much of it.

I have owned my old Jag for a long time now and found it to be a superb car day to day. Its strong points far outweigh its weak points - the only serious one being fuel consumption.

Jags sit low, but with slim pillars have excellent visibility. It is amazing how much more relaxed you are after a journey when you have not struggled to see out of the car.

It has an excellent ride; potholes which crash through the whole structure of the E91 BMW I also drive, make only a 'plop-plop' noise when the Jaguar crosses them. You don't feel them.

The car steers a true course without any tramlining whatsoever. Presumably this is down to tall tyre sidewalls.

It has very comfortable seats and excellent climate control/AC

It has good handling, road holding and steering. Set up for comfort perhaps - but the Jag remains a rewarding drive.

It has enough power.

It is reasonably safe - especially for an old car.

It has an indefinable 'feel good' factor; driving it is pleasurable.

It is completely reliable.

The down side - it only averages low 20s mpg, which gets expensive in regular use.

[TheDoggingFather]

[quote=TurboHatchback]I live in Dorset surrounded by fossils in MPVs and do most of my driving on motorways so my usage does lean towards the barge type of car but as far as I can see most of the UK is similar. Do you really do most of your driving hooning down welsh b-roads or are you (like me) stuck in traffic, following queues of 40mph-ers and wafting down motorways?


Hang on, Dorset doesn't have any Motorways? Having lived in dorset, since I was 2 and explored it behind the wheel since I was 18, I think decent handling is imperative. there's not even a massive amount of dual carriageway, so you need a decent slug of power/torque to deal with the grockles as they wander round the prettier parts at comically slow speeds. A decent auto box wouldn't go amiss, probably will be a part of whatever I buy next. Handling, handling I couldn't be without.

[TurboHatchback]

TheDoggingFather said:

Hang on, Dorset doesn't have any Motorways? Having lived in dorset, since I was 2 and explored it behind the wheel since I was 18, I think decent handling is imperative. there's not even a massive amount of dual carriageway, so you need a decent slug of power/torque to deal with the grockles as they wander round the prettier parts at comically slow speeds. A decent auto box wouldn't go amiss, probably will be a part of whatever I buy next. Handling, handling I couldn't be without.

The M27 and M3 aren't far from me and are on the way to pretty much everywhere I go. I agree that a decent slug of power is useful for blasting past the dawdlers, also it just cheers me up so if all goes to plan my next car will have a noisy V8 under the bonnet.

[Martin_Hx]

TurboHatchback said:

What I think is completely irrelevant 99.99% of the time in a road car:

• Manual gearshifting
• Steering feel
• Handling
• Revving to 9000rpm

Bugger, that's my daily driver! Admittedly only short journey to and from work

[TheDoggingFather]

TurboHatchback said:

The M27 and M3 aren't far from me and are on the way to pretty much everywhere I go. I agree that a decent slug of power is useful for blasting past the dawdlers, also it just cheers me up so if all goes to plan my next car will have a noisy V8 under the bonnet.

I'm guessing Ferndown/Wimborne way then

Get yourself a nice e39 M5 then, should cover all bases, except the auto bit. Bugger.

Edited by TheDoggingFather on Tuesday 16th December 12:18

[GetCarter]

O/P - I guess it depends where you drive. My ideal road car here (Highlands) is very different from when I was doing Oxford/London.

ETA: A sports diff would be a complete waste of time on the M40, but on the twisties here it's fab.

Edited by GetCarter on Tuesday 16th December 12:21

[Kitchski]

Best things in a road car?

• Good handling/ride balance (see 306 GTi-6)
• Nice place to sit (see Alfa Romeo)
• Frugal
• Well-matched engine power delivery/gear ratios (for economy as well as enjoyment)
• Good visibility
• Helps you relax
• Fairly well refined (but not sacrificing fun for refinement as per Audi A4/Passat etc)
• Something not flash (so you can park it anywhere and not worry too much)
• Something with cheaper running costs

Erm....can't think of more!

[sticks090460]

Comfortable seats
Good all-round visibility
Efficient heating/ ventilation
Predictable handling
Good acceleration
Good traction
Xenon headlamps or better
Auto-dimming mirrors
Auto box
Cruise control
Decent sound system

So, my 997 Turbo does me just nicely thanks. Could do with a bigger fuel tank (but that's obviously limited by the 4WD gubbins at the front) more load space, and quieter tyres. Other than that it's just dandy

[TurboHatchback]

That's a good one I missed, long gearing. Lots of cars seem to have daftly short top gears which make motorway driving more of a chore than it needs to be and burns through fuel. The ability to sit on the cruise control at 70mph and have the engine be inaudible is very important to a good road car IMO, it makes covering long distances a pleasure rather than a pain.

[madboyracer]

Long gearing for sure.

Love the setup in my Scooby

1. madboyracer

[marcosgt]

OP, I agree with quite a lot of your views, but I find myself at odds with a couple quite strongly :

Comfy seats - YES
Forgiving suspension/good ride comfort - YES, but not at the expense of body control
Refinement - YES
Good sound system - YES
Automatic gearbox - GOD, NO!!!!!
Safe chassis biased towards understeer with ABS and ESP. Preferably AWD. - I kind of agree, not a snappy oversteer monster, but something with the ability to turn the nose in with a little throttle can be safe and great fun.
An engine with big low end and mid range power, not so fussed about top end - Not so bothered as long as the engine's got enough grunt, somewhere, to overtake. Of course, taking a manual, I can chose the appropriate gear for the acceleration I need.
Huge mechanical grip - Not sure how you define HUGE, too much makes stupid speeds too easily attained and can easily be overcoming at dangerous speeds by ice, standing water or diesel spills.
Automatic, electric, heated everything - No, no, no
Four doors & lots of luggage space - Decent luggage space, but 2 or 3 doors is enough
Big fuel tank - Good range at least, better if it can achieve that on a small tank - Mine can't!


What I think is completely irrelevant 99.99% of the time in a road car:

Manual gearshifting - No, I totally disagree - I like to feel involved in driving, somethings are a benefit, like ABS and even traction control most of the time, but Autos just take away effort for no return in any way.
Steering feel - Really? I like to know where the car's going...
Handling - I suppose that's relative. An understeering or oversteering monster would be horrible to drive any time (and I've driven a few cars like that!) and I love the feeling of a car that changes direction deftly, but if you mostly drive in towns then I guess it's totally redundant.
Revving to 9000rpm - I rev mine to 9K at least once every time I go out

[T1berious]

I'm in a similar boat to Op.

As I've got older(!) My priorities have changed. Min reqs were "where was it on the Max Power list?"

with the onset of middle age decent handling, nice stereo, heated seats, sat nav decent boot (Can it take ski's and bikes blah blah blah).

2 Cars is the way to go as getting one to tick all the boxes is expensive (RS4 B7 springs to mind)

But if we're honest, pretty much all cars are compromises (Performance \ Economy, Handling \ Comfort, Styling \ Practicality the list goes on.)

And don't even start me on the "mood" as I'm sure there are days when the Caterham owner wishes he had access to 320D estate

Edited by T1berious on Tuesday 16th December 15:53

[TurboHatchback]

marcosgt said:

Manual gearshifting - No, I totally disagree - I like to feel involved in driving, somethings are a benefit, like ABS and even traction control most of the time, but Autos just take away effort for no return in any way.

That's the entire point of autos, they take the effort out of driving. Yes I think a manual is great on the way up the Stelvio pass but on the way to Tesco or in traffic on the M3 it's just tedious. I also love the ability to launch out of junctions at full pelt with no effort or chance of getting it wrong, gives more confidence when pulling into tight gaps in fast traffic.

[marcosgt]

TurboHatchback said:

marcosgt said:

Manual gearshifting - No, I totally disagree - I like to feel involved in driving, somethings are a benefit, like ABS and even traction control most of the time, but Autos just take away effort for no return in any way.

That's the entire point of autos, they take the effort out of driving. Yes I think a manual is great on the way up the Stelvio pass but on the way to Tesco or in traffic on the M3 it's just tedious. I also love the ability to launch out of junctions at full pelt with no effort or chance of getting it wrong, gives more confidence when pulling into tight gaps in fast traffic.

Well a bus takes all the effort out of driving

Call me old fashioned, but I simply don't like automatics, never have, probably never will, even when you can't buy a car without one... Changing gear's one of the driving pleasures you can get 100% of the time, whether on the way to Tescos or on the Stelvio. Slick, smooth changes can be done at walking pace or flat chat..

If changing gear's tedious, maybe you're on the wrong forum?

M.

[toon10]

marcosgt said:

Well a bus takes all the effort out of driving

Call me old fashioned, but I simply don't like automatics, never have, probably never will, even when you can't buy a car without one...

If changing gear's tedious, maybe you're on the wrong forum?

M.

This. Auto's if you're stuck in traffic a lot but I always think an auto is a compromise on a more fun/performance orientated car. I'm lucky that my commute is 3 only miles and I rarely get stuck in motorway traffic. The auto box on the 3 series hire car from Heathrow to Newcastle during last years air traffic control fiasco was a god send on the other hand!

[TheDoggingFather]

doogz said:

My Shogun has very dark tints, but a reversing camera, which helps immensely when its dark.

My Honda is a complete ball bag to reverse at night. Blacked out windows at the back and a rear window that points skywards. Time to get some LED reverse lights.

[paranoid airbag]

TurboHatchback said:

That's a good one I missed, long gearing. Lots of cars seem to have daftly short top gears which make motorway driving more of a chore than it needs to be and burns through fuel. The ability to sit on the cruise control at 70mph and have the engine be inaudible is very important to a good road car IMO, it makes covering long distances a pleasure rather than a pain.

+1, I've only got a 1.2 stbox so high gearing is more necessary but even so, 4th should be about what 5th is.

Can't say I'm bothered by revvy engines though, even on track, unless you need the power to come from a small engine why not go for extra midrange?

[luckystrike]

I find a feeling of accessibility very important - either for a calm drive in a-b transport, or a sense of fulfilment in fun stuff. This doesn't directly translate to but often involves relatively low power, as too much is either wasted or requires levels of care and attention that would probably go beyond my enjoyment.

If I had a massively powerful car but couldn't drive it half the year or go full throttle in anything less than fourth I'd be beyond frustrated.