What makes a good road car?

[mwstewart]

A good car is often like a fine wine. The ingredients between two examples could be entirely the same but its nuances - and not always good ones at that - define the whole and serve to create something memorable.

[MC Bodge]

TurboHatchback said:

Those are some other good points. Wheels that can deal with bad surfaces/potholes and make minimal road noise (so small as possible), decent ground clearance. The manufacturers seem to be pushing in exactly the opposite direction, no doubt led by consumer demand but worrying your car is going to shatter on every bump does detract from the relaxation somewhat.

Exactly. A family car with adequate power (say a grunty 150bhp) and good body control and balance, but one that can also cope with bumps and keep its sensibly-sized tyres (that don't just breakaway without warning) on the ground, whilst not constantly scraping its bumper can be an effective, and potentially brisk, car on real roads, rather than on utopian race tracks.

It's not quite Mumsnet to suggest this, is it?

[otolith]

But it's less fun than something which sacrifices some practicality and comfort for enjoyment. You pays yer money...

[RobM77]

mwstewart said:

A good car is often like a fine wine. The ingredients between two examples could be entirely the same but its nuances - and not always good ones at that - define the whole and serve to create something memorable.

I completely agree. Plus, like wine, everyone has different tastes and there's no such thing as a 'good' car.

[GetCarter]

RobM77 said:

mwstewart said:

A good car is often like a fine wine. The ingredients between two examples could be entirely the same but its nuances - and not always good ones at that - define the whole and serve to create something memorable.

I completely agree. Plus, like wine, everyone has different tastes and there's no such thing as a 'good' car.

..and like wine, it inevitably causes rubbish to be spoken.

A good road car is what someone thinks suits their needs. It's different for everyone.

End.

[GreenArrow]

GetCarter said:

RobM77 said:

mwstewart said:

A good car is often like a fine wine. The ingredients between two examples could be entirely the same but its nuances - and not always good ones at that - define the whole and serve to create something memorable.

I completely agree. Plus, like wine, everyone has different tastes and there's no such thing as a 'good' car.

..and like wine, it inevitably causes rubbish to be spoken.

A good road car is what someone thinks suits their needs. It's different for everyone.

End.

I agree, but my personal view is that a good road car is something that has been set up to be usable on the road, rather than predominately track based...that's why I think a Golf R is a better all round hot hatch right now that the Megane Trophy R thing that all the journos are hot under the collar about.......of course others will disagree!

[GetCarter]

GreenArrow said:

GetCarter said:

RobM77 said:

mwstewart said:

A good car is often like a fine wine. The ingredients between two examples could be entirely the same but its nuances - and not always good ones at that - define the whole and serve to create something memorable.

I completely agree. Plus, like wine, everyone has different tastes and there's no such thing as a 'good' car.

..and like wine, it inevitably causes rubbish to be spoken.

A good road car is what someone thinks suits their needs. It's different for everyone.

End.

a good road car is something that has been set up to be usable on the road,

Fair comment. But what road? M4, A4, A32, A82, A896

Done them all... unless you just want to do A to B and don't give a toss about how you get there, they need different cars!

ETA: Come drive the A896 and find out

Edited by GetCarter on Thursday 18th December 18:41

[RobM77]

GetCarter said:

GreenArrow said:

GetCarter said:

RobM77 said:

mwstewart said:

A good car is often like a fine wine. The ingredients between two examples could be entirely the same but its nuances - and not always good ones at that - define the whole and serve to create something memorable.

I completely agree. Plus, like wine, everyone has different tastes and there's no such thing as a 'good' car.

..and like wine, it inevitably causes rubbish to be spoken.

A good road car is what someone thinks suits their needs. It's different for everyone.

End.

a good road car is something that has been set up to be usable on the road,

Fair comment. But what road? M4, A4, A32, A82, A896

Done them all... unless you just want to do A to B and don't give a toss about how you get there, they need different cars!

ETA: Come drive the A896 and find out

Edited by GetCarter on Thursday 18th December 18:41

And for what tastes? My wife drives a Civic Type R and thinks anything with softer suspension wallows like a boat! Equally other people think its a bone shaker and won't go anywhere near it. It's all subjective.

[Ozzie Osmond]

ORD said:

Jeez. A lot of car talk that makes me think I must be reading an article in "The Leisurely Elderly Gentleman Monthly" or on Mumsnet.

Yup, too many SUVs and not enough sportscars.

I think the focus on "trackday specials", fuelled by TopGear and other media, is distorting perceptions of what sort of vehicle you need to obtain driver satisfaction on the road.

[ORD]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Yup, too many SUVs and not enough sportscars.

I think the focus on "trackday specials", fuelled by TopGear and other media, is distorting perceptions of what sort of vehicle you need to obtain driver satisfaction on the road.

And the thing is that a sorted car (balanced, grippy, responsive, neutral handling, etc) feels better to drive all of the time. It's not just for B road blasts.

It's as though people have decided that the choice is between a wallowy barge that makes you forget you are even driving a car (see most Mercs, any current BMW on SE suspension, most Audis) or a track day special! There is a middle ground, and focussing on comfort is bonkers when pretty mucb all modern road cars are perfectly comfortable unless you are driving for 5 hours a day or are geriatric.

[RobM77]

ORD said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

Yup, too many SUVs and not enough sportscars.

I think the focus on "trackday specials", fuelled by TopGear and other media, is distorting perceptions of what sort of vehicle you need to obtain driver satisfaction on the road.

And the thing is that a sorted car (balanced, grippy, responsive, neutral handling, etc) feels better to drive all of the time. It's not just for B road blasts.

It's as though people have decided that the choice is between a wallowy barge that makes you forget you are even driving a car (see most Mercs, any current BMW on SE suspension, most Audis) or a track day special! There is a middle ground, and focussing on comfort is bonkers when pretty mucb all modern road cars are perfectly comfortable unless you are driving for 5 hours a day or are geriatric.

I completely agree. The opinion that I want a car that's good to drive to commute in seems to be a lonely one here on PH. Personally I think that attitude is a natural consequence of what's happened to the average road car in recent years. When I learnt to drive, a bog standard 205 or Clio had instant throttle response (from a cable connected to the engine - how daring!), no power steering and quite a lot of steering feel, no clutch delay valve, and a chassis that spoke to you. I therefore grew up loving driving. Nowadays, the average car is just a wallowy blancmange. People think that a hardcore Caterham is the only way to enjoy driving, if indeed they think its possible to enjoy driving at ll, beyond straight line speed and a car looking or sounding nice. It's what we're fed really - I'm sure if I was 17 now I wouldn't enjoy driving, I'd be mountain biking or windsurfing instead.

Edited by RobM77 on Friday 19th December 15:20

[SteveS Cup]

In a very non ph mood at the moment.

My current car...

Handles well
Goes well (relative to its size / cc)
Sounds good
Is very involving
Has superb feedback

But!

It's too bumpy
It's requires effort to get the best from it
It's too noisy
It's too harsh
It's bloody tiring on boring journeys

So although I want something that is quick, handles well, looks good, I also want...

Automatic
Comfort
Effortless cruising
Low down torque
More space / practicality

[MC Bodge]

RobM77 said:

I completely agree. The opinion that I want a car that's good to drive to commute in seems to be a lonely one on PH.

I don't necessarily think so, but not everybody has exactly the same requirements or needs exactly the same viewpoint on every aspect of their car as you do to enjoy driving.

I've just had an excellent, enjoyable drive home, keeping it smooth and balanced, along mostly wet, filthy and bumpy back roads in a big, fwd (yes, really!) estate. It might have been a bit sketchy on the moto today, but could also have been fun, if quite a bit slower.

RobM77 said:

I'm sure if I was 17 now I wouldn't enjoy driving, I'd be mountain biking or windsurfing instead.

Really? I'm 37 and I still enjoy driving and suspect that I would if I was 17 again. I also really enjoy mountain biking now, as I did 20 years ago. In fact, mountain biking (and mountaineering) has provided an excuse for some of my most enjoyable early-morning, cross-country drives.

[ORD]

MC Bodge said:

Really? I'm 37 and I still enjoy driving and suspect that I would if I was 17 again. I also really enjoy mountain biking now, as I did 20 years ago. In fact, mountain biking (and mountaineering) has provided an excuse for some of my most enjoyable early-morning, cross-country drives.

Presumably he means because the boggo modern shopping car that the average 17 year old will have as a first car is utterly insipid to drive, such that the boy/girl will never learn all the things that terrible cars taught us (and that we enjoyed).

[MC Bodge]

I learned to drive in a 1.0 Polo and thought that it was horrible.

My dad's Mk3 Cavalier was far better, although it handled terribly and under steered excessively.

[karma mechanic]

Sometimes you just get used to the way a car drives, over months or years.
Then you drive something else and think how quiet/smooth/agile/lardy/noisy/tramliney/comfy/roomy/light/heavy this other one is. And sometimes it is better, or newer, or more expensive, or more frugal, or drinks like a fish. Or it might be a V8.

Today I drove a heavily-modified Subaru P1 for about 45 minutes. That included some heavy traffic and some open road. I'd forgotten how much fun that kind of car can be. Just negotiating a large roundabout feels like something from Gran Turismo - without actually going any faster than the other traffic. The steering seemed to have a direct connection to the front wheels, the suspension was supple, the induction noise was, er, loud. The seats were huggy and the ride was unexpectedly comfortable. I could easily go a long way in that car.

Good road car? It ticks some boxes that other cars seldom tick and has loads of accessible torque and grip. And noise. But then the interior comes from an earlier century, the integrated satnav/Bluetooth/entertainment system appeared to have been stolen and replaced by a curious hard plastic slot for playing CDs, they must have forgotten to install the lane-assist and I had to turn the wipers and lights on manually. The climate control options consist of a little button, AC on or off.

Great fun in the right mood and circumstances though.

[plasticpig]

ORD said:

Jeez.

A lot of car talk that makes me think I must be reading an article in "The Leisurely Elderly Gentleman Monthly" or on Mumsnet.

We have a few more years of petrol engines and should be out enjoying them while we can, rather than looking for a sofa on wheels. Plenty of time to sit on a sofa when at home or when even older or when petrol engines are outlawed and we are all pootling along in semi-automated euroboxes with electric powerplants, boring us stless.

The last thing in the World we should be doing is searching out luxobarges and trying to experience the drive as little as possible.

I like my sofa on wheels. It's quick, comfortable and I enjoy driving it.

[RobM77]

MC Bodge said:

RobM77 said:

I completely agree. The opinion that I want a car that's good to drive to commute in seems to be a lonely one on PH.

I don't necessarily think so, but not everybody has exactly the same requirements or needs exactly the same viewpoint on every aspect of their car as you do to enjoy driving.

I've just had an excellent, enjoyable drive home, keeping it smooth and balanced, along mostly wet, filthy and bumpy back roads in a big, fwd (yes, really!) estate. It might have been a bit sketchy on the moto today, but could also have been fun, if quite a bit slower.

I'm not so sure. I too enjoy slow drives sometimes, but a number of threads on here recently have made me realise that for a lot of people a love of cars is not necessarily a love of driving.

MC Bodge said:

RobM77 said:

I'm sure if I was 17 now I wouldn't enjoy driving, I'd be mountain biking or windsurfing instead.

Really? I'm 37 and I still enjoy driving and suspect that I would if I was 17 again. I also really enjoy mountain biking now, as I did 20 years ago. In fact, mountain biking (and mountaineering) has provided an excuse for some of my most enjoyable early-morning, cross-country drives.

What I meant by that was if I passed my test now in a Corsa and graduated to driving an Astra perhaps, then there would be nothing there for me to enjoy, so I wouldn't bother digging deeper to find enjoyable cars like BMWs, Lotuses, Caterhams etc. Back in the 80s and 90s I pretty much enjoyed driving every car, because other than the true rubbish, almost every car had some steering feel to speak of, some brake pedal weighting, loads of chassis feel and feedback and almost all cars had what would be considered these days as a reasonably low CofG. Nowadays of course I can have fun in any car, but I don't think a modern car with ePAS, over-served brakes, wobbly suspension, high CofG etc would get me interested in cars in the first place. Who knows though, maybe I would get an interest, but I think I'd take a different route through the car world to the one I did actually take.

[GetCarter]

RobM77 said:

MC Bodge said:

RobM77 said:

I completely agree. The opinion that I want a car that's good to drive to commute in seems to be a lonely one on PH.

I don't necessarily think so, but not everybody has exactly the same requirements or needs exactly the same viewpoint on every aspect of their car as you do to enjoy driving.

I've just had an excellent, enjoyable drive home, keeping it smooth and balanced, along mostly wet, filthy and bumpy back roads in a big, fwd (yes, really!) estate. It might have been a bit sketchy on the moto today, but could also have been fun, if quite a bit slower.

I'm not so sure. I too enjoy slow drives sometimes, but a number of threads on here recently have made me realise that for a lot of people a love of cars is not necessarily a love of driving.

MC Bodge said:

RobM77 said:

I'm sure if I was 17 now I wouldn't enjoy driving, I'd be mountain biking or windsurfing instead.

Really? I'm 37 and I still enjoy driving and suspect that I would if I was 17 again. I also really enjoy mountain biking now, as I did 20 years ago. In fact, mountain biking (and mountaineering) has provided an excuse for some of my most enjoyable early-morning, cross-country drives.

What I meant by that was if I passed my test now in a Corsa and graduated to driving an Astra perhaps, then there would be nothing there for me to enjoy, so I wouldn't bother digging deeper to find enjoyable cars like BMWs, Lotuses, Caterhams etc. Back in the 80s and 90s I pretty much enjoyed driving every car, because other than the true rubbish, almost every car had some steering feel to speak of, some brake pedal weighting, loads of chassis feel and feedback and almost all cars had what would be considered these days as a reasonably low CofG. Nowadays of course I can have fun in any car, but I don't think a modern car with ePAS, over-served brakes, wobbly suspension, high CofG etc would get me interested in cars in the first place. Who knows though, maybe I would get an interest, but I think I'd take a different route through the car world to the one I did actually take.

I kinda' see where you're coming from. We have driven some of the same cars, both on road and track.

Thing is though, whatever one drives at 17, it's the freedom, not the chassis that creates the buzz. 17 year olds will drive whatever they can to get that freedom!

[MC Bodge]

RobM77 said:

I'm not so sure. I too enjoy slow drives sometimes, but a number of threads on here recently have made me realise that for a lot of people a love of cars is not necessarily a love of driving.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't exactly driving slowly... I enjoy the wet.

I agree that there do seem to be some people who are much more interested in cars than in driving them.

I'm the opposite -it's more about the driving/riding and less about the particular car or
Image, although I do like cars and bikes.