The " war on the motorist"
Discussion
v12Legs said:
Are some people seriously blaming congestion and traffic jams on cyclists?
That's some rather odd reasoning.
People frequently decide who is to blame first then simply try to find the evidence that proves it. This frequently results in what could be described as odd reasoning.That's some rather odd reasoning.
iloveboost said:
I've always felt that if petrol was untaxed they'd have to get the same amount of tax elsewhere, so it makes no difference to the percentage of disposable income you have.
I think the main problem is that house building is not keeping up with demand. This causes house prices, mortgages and rent to rise faster than incomes. However as property rises predictably in price it's easier to get credit at lower interest rates, making house prices rise even faster and fuelling more investment from landlords. Then every time a landlord buys a house to rent, it takes another house to buy off the market, making house prices rise even faster.
I think after the housing boom of the sixties, the government decided to regulate house building closely. Fair enough but as a consequence they didn't, and still don't, allow enough houses to be built. They call it a 'cost of living crisis' but I think every government since then has messed house building up. and they don't seem to be able to fix it.
The difference is putting too much tax burden on road fuel doesn't take account of incomes.In which case it tries ( and fails )because those on lower incomes just cut back on use of road fuel.Or on spending in order to pay the extortionate amount of tax on the fuel they have to use.IE effectively there is a flat rate of more than 50% tax on everyone's budget used for fuel regardless of income.Which obviously hits those on lower incomes disproportionately compared to those on higher incomes.I think the main problem is that house building is not keeping up with demand. This causes house prices, mortgages and rent to rise faster than incomes. However as property rises predictably in price it's easier to get credit at lower interest rates, making house prices rise even faster and fuelling more investment from landlords. Then every time a landlord buys a house to rent, it takes another house to buy off the market, making house prices rise even faster.
I think after the housing boom of the sixties, the government decided to regulate house building closely. Fair enough but as a consequence they didn't, and still don't, allow enough houses to be built. They call it a 'cost of living crisis' but I think every government since then has messed house building up. and they don't seem to be able to fix it.
The result being that it is neither an efficient way to obtain tax revenues and creates economic stagnation regarding most of what tax is raised.
As for the idea of building our way out of a housing affordability issue.That is effectively just more of the same old failed idea of trying to subsidise low wage employment by turning places where people want to live into high density urban environments where they don't want to live.Together with the lose lose situation of the population growth and gravitation which such urbanisation creates causing the problems of demand exceeding supply.Which is why it is generally the already most urbanised heavily supplied areas like London which have have the most issues with housing affordability.Together with the issues of those living in such an environment wanting to move out to less developed areas thereby starting the whole process again.
As I've already said, tax on fuel affects the prices of other goods and services because everything requires road transport of some sort. Goods need transporting by road, services are provided by people driving from one place to another, public transport is vehicles consuming diesel. The cost of fuel gets factored into the final price of everything because it's a significant part of the expenditure of every company in the supply chain. Never drive a car in your life and you'll still be affected by fuel costs. Drive a car and you'll be affected both directly and indirectly.
BGarside said:
Pan Pan said:
As for `anyone else' if they want transport dedicated to them, they should put their money where their mouth is, and pay for it themselves, as motorists have done for years, and have to do now. Where only a tiny fraction of the funds paid into the exchequer every year by the motoring public, is spent back on the roads from whence that cash comes in the first place
Funny but I don't see special taxes on cyclists, bus passengers, train users, etc. in other European countries.Everyone pays a range of income taxes to subsidise the roads and publicly-owned public transport, not to mention some of the highest bus and train fares in Europe.
Don't blame non-drivers for the government's failure to re-invest income generated from fuel, VED, car tax, etc. in the roads network.
is a good place for cyclists.
This it might certainly be, being more or less flat, and with good cycling infrastructure, but since the Dutch do not have a National Health System like we do, (in fact the Dutch Government only contributes 5% of the cost of health care, as the remainder is funded by mandatory private health insurance) only children get free health care in Holland.
So if we got rid of the NHS, the UK would have billions of pounds to contribute to other projects, such as similar cycling infrastructure as is available in Holland.
On the question of motorists believing that they alone pay for the roads and people are provided with a road network for very little cost.
Let's for a moment ignore that Government has repeatedly refused to hypothecate transport taxes, we know why, but just bear with me.
Taxes on road users.
Taxes and charges specific to road users, 30.9 billion (Fuel duty, VED, Tolls, congestion charge)
General taxes paid by road users, 17.2 billion (VAT fuel, VAT vehicle sales, Insurance premium tax, Company car tax and fuel benefit)
Total tax paid by road users = 48.1 billion per annum (Source House of Commons)
Total central and local Govt spend on transport sector, 18 billion projected to rise to 20 billion, (source George Osborne/ Danny Alexander)
which includes
Total spend on roads. 7.7 billion, pa (network improvements, maintenance) Source Road User alliance
Bus 2.3 billion (source House of Commons)
Rail 4.4 billion (Dept for Transport, Office of rail Regulation)
not sure how the 3.2 billion for Transport for London splits up frankly.
Anyway looking at this very simply road users pay handsomely for the road network. Certain road users who aren't taxed should be grateful. Puts wooden spoon back.
Let's for a moment ignore that Government has repeatedly refused to hypothecate transport taxes, we know why, but just bear with me.
Taxes on road users.
Taxes and charges specific to road users, 30.9 billion (Fuel duty, VED, Tolls, congestion charge)
General taxes paid by road users, 17.2 billion (VAT fuel, VAT vehicle sales, Insurance premium tax, Company car tax and fuel benefit)
Total tax paid by road users = 48.1 billion per annum (Source House of Commons)
Total central and local Govt spend on transport sector, 18 billion projected to rise to 20 billion, (source George Osborne/ Danny Alexander)
which includes
Total spend on roads. 7.7 billion, pa (network improvements, maintenance) Source Road User alliance
Bus 2.3 billion (source House of Commons)
Rail 4.4 billion (Dept for Transport, Office of rail Regulation)
not sure how the 3.2 billion for Transport for London splits up frankly.
Anyway looking at this very simply road users pay handsomely for the road network. Certain road users who aren't taxed should be grateful. Puts wooden spoon back.
Devil2575 said:
v12Legs said:
Are some people seriously blaming congestion and traffic jams on cyclists?
That's some rather odd reasoning.
People frequently decide who is to blame first then simply try to find the evidence that proves it. This frequently results in what could be described as odd reasoning.That's some rather odd reasoning.
FiF said:
On the question of motorists believing that they alone pay for the roads and people are provided with a road network for very little cost.
Let's for a moment ignore that Government has repeatedly refused to hypothecate transport taxes, we know why, but just bear with me.
Taxes on road users.
Taxes and charges specific to road users, 30.9 billion (Fuel duty, VED, Tolls, congestion charge)
General taxes paid by road users, 17.2 billion (VAT fuel, VAT vehicle sales, Insurance premium tax, Company car tax and fuel benefit)
Total tax paid by road users = 48.1 billion per annum (Source House of Commons)
Total central and local Govt spend on transport sector, 18 billion projected to rise to 20 billion, (source George Osborne/ Danny Alexander)
which includes
Total spend on roads. 7.7 billion, pa (network improvements, maintenance) Source Road User alliance
Bus 2.3 billion (source House of Commons)
Rail 4.4 billion (Dept for Transport, Office of rail Regulation)
not sure how the 3.2 billion for Transport for London splits up frankly.
Anyway looking at this very simply road users pay handsomely for the road network. Certain road users who aren't taxed should be grateful. Puts wooden spoon back.
I don't see your point because every single one of us is or has been a road user and every single one of us pays tax and benefits from a system of taxation.Let's for a moment ignore that Government has repeatedly refused to hypothecate transport taxes, we know why, but just bear with me.
Taxes on road users.
Taxes and charges specific to road users, 30.9 billion (Fuel duty, VED, Tolls, congestion charge)
General taxes paid by road users, 17.2 billion (VAT fuel, VAT vehicle sales, Insurance premium tax, Company car tax and fuel benefit)
Total tax paid by road users = 48.1 billion per annum (Source House of Commons)
Total central and local Govt spend on transport sector, 18 billion projected to rise to 20 billion, (source George Osborne/ Danny Alexander)
which includes
Total spend on roads. 7.7 billion, pa (network improvements, maintenance) Source Road User alliance
Bus 2.3 billion (source House of Commons)
Rail 4.4 billion (Dept for Transport, Office of rail Regulation)
not sure how the 3.2 billion for Transport for London splits up frankly.
Anyway looking at this very simply road users pay handsomely for the road network. Certain road users who aren't taxed should be grateful. Puts wooden spoon back.
GPSHead said:
Devil2575 said:
v12Legs said:
Are some people seriously blaming congestion and traffic jams on cyclists?
That's some rather odd reasoning.
People frequently decide who is to blame first then simply try to find the evidence that proves it. This frequently results in what could be described as odd reasoning.That's some rather odd reasoning.
heebeegeetee said:
FiF said:
On the question of motorists believing that they alone pay for the roads and people are provided with a road network for very little cost.
Let's for a moment ignore that Government has repeatedly refused to hypothecate transport taxes, we know why, but just bear with me.
Taxes on road users.
Taxes and charges specific to road users, 30.9 billion (Fuel duty, VED, Tolls, congestion charge)
General taxes paid by road users, 17.2 billion (VAT fuel, VAT vehicle sales, Insurance premium tax, Company car tax and fuel benefit)
Total tax paid by road users = 48.1 billion per annum (Source House of Commons)
Total central and local Govt spend on transport sector, 18 billion projected to rise to 20 billion, (source George Osborne/ Danny Alexander)
which includes
Total spend on roads. 7.7 billion, pa (network improvements, maintenance) Source Road User alliance
Bus 2.3 billion (source House of Commons)
Rail 4.4 billion (Dept for Transport, Office of rail Regulation)
not sure how the 3.2 billion for Transport for London splits up frankly.
Anyway looking at this very simply road users pay handsomely for the road network. Certain road users who aren't taxed should be grateful. Puts wooden spoon back.
I don't see your point because every single one of us is or has been a road user and every single one of us pays tax and benefits from a system of taxation.Let's for a moment ignore that Government has repeatedly refused to hypothecate transport taxes, we know why, but just bear with me.
Taxes on road users.
Taxes and charges specific to road users, 30.9 billion (Fuel duty, VED, Tolls, congestion charge)
General taxes paid by road users, 17.2 billion (VAT fuel, VAT vehicle sales, Insurance premium tax, Company car tax and fuel benefit)
Total tax paid by road users = 48.1 billion per annum (Source House of Commons)
Total central and local Govt spend on transport sector, 18 billion projected to rise to 20 billion, (source George Osborne/ Danny Alexander)
which includes
Total spend on roads. 7.7 billion, pa (network improvements, maintenance) Source Road User alliance
Bus 2.3 billion (source House of Commons)
Rail 4.4 billion (Dept for Transport, Office of rail Regulation)
not sure how the 3.2 billion for Transport for London splits up frankly.
Anyway looking at this very simply road users pay handsomely for the road network. Certain road users who aren't taxed should be grateful. Puts wooden spoon back.
Transport taxation is not hypothecated because road users through direct and general taxation which specifically arises due to their road use contribute nearly 30 billion pounds more than central and local government spend on all forms of transport.
Just to spell it out, road users pay for all central and local government spending on roads and all other forms of transport, rail, air, buses, ports etc etc. After that there is still currently 30 billion left over as net contribution to the country for the government to spend as it pleases. Even in the future according to predictions it will still be 28 billion per annum.
FiF said:
Transport taxation is not hypothecated because road users through direct and general taxation which specifically arises due to their road use contribute nearly 30 billion pounds more than central and local government spend on all forms of transport.
And?Even if your figures are correct you could say the same for many different areas of taxation, easy example being smoking.
So what is it you want exactly?
Cheaper motoring?
More spent on roads?
Exclusive use of the roads because "you" paid for them by driving?
One poster said:
As it stands, you're provided with a system in which you can basically drive almost anywhere, at any time, on your own, without justification, for hardly any money
meanwhile another poster said:
Vehicles represent an easy way to gouge money from people that, especially with all this current right on environmental guff, is being exploited for all it's worth
The figures tend to support one view but not the other. Make of it what you will. If you don't want to accept the government figures not much to do about it. As covered at the beginning transportation taxes and spend are not hypothecated, but it's interesting to take such a view and see the checks and balances within a sector. If anyone thinks it's not relevant to a discussion about the theoretical war on the motorist that's their problem.
GPSHead said:
Devil2575 said:
v12Legs said:
Are some people seriously blaming congestion and traffic jams on cyclists?
That's some rather odd reasoning.
People frequently decide who is to blame first then simply try to find the evidence that proves it. This frequently results in what could be described as odd reasoning.That's some rather odd reasoning.
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