1M v Cayman R v Golf R400 v Megane 275

[Mouse1903]

That's kind of my thought. If I could get that spec under 31k it would be a bit more acceptable. It's the Ohlins that bump it up at 2k

[aeropilot]

Golf would be out for me as it's awd.
Megane would be also out as it's fwd - and it's a Renault.

That leaves the 1M and the Cayman R, and for me the Cayman would be out as it's a 2 seater and just not as practical.

As you do low miles, a higher mileage 1M would be a good bet if you say intend keeping for 3 years or more - as the average mileage would come down in your ownership and it would be an average or even slightly below average mileage car by the time you sell.
With the M2 coming out at the end of 2015 - 1M values might take a dip for a short while in 12 months time.
I think the Cayman R values will hold though.

[edo]

Mouse1903 said:

I'm thinking ahead to my next car. I've been lucky to get a new rotational job meaning no more rush hour commute and therefore fuel economy isn't so much of a worry I really love my little 500 Abarth Esseesse and not bored of it at all, but planning to change it probably 2016 as I will have had it 6 years from new. The 4 cars in the title are on the shortlist and have their different pro's and con's.

1M: Possibly joint best looking with the R400, fabulous noise, future classic
Cayman R: Proper drivers car, has the prestige
Golf R400: The ultimate all rounder with insane performance
275: The underdog, possibly the purists choice

Concerns with the 1M would be being able to afford 40k to buy one - are values going to continue to increase?

The Cayman R is kind of similar - will it end up with similar residuals as the 1M?

The R400 big con is - it isn't released yet. I wouldn't risk putting a deposit on one in case it is fast in a straight line but a disappointment to drive, but given the quality of the current R can it really be that bad? Also I'm assuming it will start at 40k which will become 45k with options, and will have good residuals?

Finally the 275 is probably the most realistic choice for me, 30k with options new so could pick up a 2nd hand one in 2016 for 24 - 26k? What I don't like about it is the facelift isn't as pretty as the 250/265 and the cabin is pretty uninspiring with the exception of the recaros. I'm swaying towards it the most though due to the rave reviews.

4 cars with some similarities and some differences, what would your pick be?

Unless you need more than 2 seats; Cayman every time.

[TA14]

aeropilot said:

Golf would be out for me as it's awd.
Megane would be also out as it's fwd - and it's a Renault.

That leaves the 1M and the Cayman R, and for me the Cayman would be out as it's a 2 seater and just not as practical.

As you do low miles, a higher mileage 1M would be a good bet if you say intend keeping for 3 years or more - as the average mileage would come down in your ownership and it would be an average or even slightly below average mileage car by the time you sell.
With the M2 coming out at the end of 2015 - 1M values might take a dip for a short while in 12 months time.
I think the Cayman R values will hold though.

I don't think that the OP was really after advice on which car though, simply justification to spend £30K+ on a FWD Renault. If you read his opening post and subsequent comments this seems to back this theory up. Like you I would choose further upmarket, esp since the OP said he would consider second hand and MPG doesn't matter. You could have a DB9 or nice 911 for that money but sometimes it's good that we're all different and some would rather have a Renault Megane

[Mouse1903]

The 0% APR is what does it for me. Can't seem to see any brokers that sell the 275 Trophy

[Allyc85]

PaulD86 said:

Well I can only speak for the one of the four I own, the Cayman R, but having bought it 3 weeks ago having never driven one but having read many great things I was expecting it to be good and it has massively exceeded my expectations. It's fantastic! I've driven lots of Porsches from 911s to Boxters of various ages and this is my favourite to date (I'm sure a 911 GT3 could change that, but not for £40k) with it being, in my opinion, quite a bit sharper than the Cayman S' I'd been considering before I found the 'R'.

What's really surprised me is that I've enjoyed it while sat behind other cars on A and B roads - it's such a nice car to drive that I can enjoy driving it even at modest speeds, certainly not something I ever said of the Impreza I sold when I bought it (it was only any fun when driving flat out and had nothing of the poise, feel and balance of the Porsche).

Before I bought the 'R' I considered all sorts of things, not quite the same list as you but a 1M or M135i was on the list of possibles. I have zero regrets with my choice. The M135 I looked at was a lovely car, but the Cayman feels more special for me. And before I have Porsche fanboy accusations levelled at me, I was quite honestly not a Porsche fan until I experienced a few of my friends Porsches.

Try out your options and see what you like the feel of, but I doubt you'd regret a Cayman R.


Obligatory pic of car on epic driving road.

Where is that?!

[nickfrog]

RobM77 said:

True in concept, but in practise it's not that clear cut an there's often a big overlap between the two.

There is a MASSIVE overlap between a Cayman R and a 1M, particularly for mere road use. If you look at them from the outside, it may be difficult to believe and if you look at them on paper, then the higher COG, higher PMOI, non-NA engine of the BMW should really massively count against it.

For some reason, it doesn't in reality. How do I know ?

I've been lucky enough to go round the Ring at 9/10ths in a Boxster Spyder on Cups driven by a fairly smooth and decent pedaler. And lucky enough to drive the 1M at Portimao on Mich PSS.

The Porsche was ultimately the better car on track and near(ish) the limit. But the actual difference was irrelevant. If anything the BMW was a little less clinical and more fun.

[ORD]

nickfrog said:

There is a MASSIVE overlap between a Cayman R and a 1M, particularly for mere road use. If you look at them from the outside, it may be difficult to believe and if you look at them on paper, then the higher COG, higher PMOI, non-NA engine of the BMW should really massively count against it.

For some reason, it doesn't in reality. How do I know ?

I've been lucky enough to go round the Ring at 9/10ths in a Boxster Spyder on Cups driven by a fairly smooth and decent pedaler. And lucky enough to drive the 1M at Portimao on Mich PSS.

The Porsche was ultimately the better car on track and near(ish) the limit. But the actual difference was irrelevant. If anything the BMW was a little less clinical and more fun.

Maybe because you were driving it!

The BMW feels like a good BMW. The Cayman R feels like a good Porsche. If you have driven a fair few of each, that is the difference that matters. Some people prefer front engine RWD and others prefer mid or rear engine RWD.

[RobM77]

We can't forget the non-linear steering rack on the Porsche of course. Personally I just can't get on with it, and think it might belong on a Prius or Yaris if Toyota had a bad day. A Porsche though? Urghh.. Such a shame, as in my humble opinion it ruins an otherwise good car. Reviews never mention it, so I can only assume it's a personal thing. Do make sure you try the car through a range of corners before buying though, as the nasty thing about it is that it switches over at an average amount of lock, rather than at either extreme, so you can go round one corner with one steering ratio then the next at a different ratio!

[Mouse1903]

Well decision made, tomorrow morning I will be putting down a deposit on a new 275 Trophy after 4 weeks of hunting for a best deal. Decided on following spec:

Liquid Yellow
19" Speedlines
Ohlins Dampers
Panoramic Sunroof
Electric Foldable Mirrors

Delivery should be mid-end of April, excited!

[andrewparker]

Great choice!

Did you see Dickie Meaden has one as a long termer now - seems to be loving it judging by his first report in EVO and numerous tweets about it.

[John D.]

Mouse1903 said:

Well decision made, tomorrow morning I will be putting down a deposit on a new 275 Trophy after 4 weeks of hunting for a best deal. Decided on following spec:

Liquid Yellow
19" Speedlines
Ohlins Dampers
Panoramic Sunroof
Electric Foldable Mirrors

Delivery should be mid-end of April, excited!

Nice

[ORD]

RobM77 said:

We can't forget the non-linear steering rack on the Porsche of course. Personally I just can't get on with it, and think it might belong on a Prius or Yaris if Toyota had a bad day. A Porsche though? Urghh.. Such a shame, as in my humble opinion it ruins an otherwise good car. Reviews never mention it, so I can only assume it's a personal thing. Do make sure you try the car through a range of corners before buying though, as the nasty thing about it is that it switches over at an average amount of lock, rather than at either extreme, so you can go round one corner with one steering ratio then the next at a different ratio!

You're a sensitive chap, Rob - it never bothers me at all. The steering is still one million times better than any modern BMW I have driven. And it does make the car manoeuvrable at low speed and very stable and easy to steer at high speed.

[Dblue]

Great choice , though I'm a bit biased. All the cars on your original list would have been fine choices and a vanilla Golf R would have been great too.
5000 miles in on mine and its just brilliant. Such a giggle on any twisty road. The Ohlins are briliant as is the steering and balance. As a drivers car its a classic. But its solid and reliable and nothing squeaks or rattles , and won't after 40k miles either based on previous experience of the first Trophy I had.



|http://thumbsnap.com/bsTXcstJ[/url]

[RobM77]

ORD said:

RobM77 said:

We can't forget the non-linear steering rack on the Porsche of course. Personally I just can't get on with it, and think it might belong on a Prius or Yaris if Toyota had a bad day. A Porsche though? Urghh.. Such a shame, as in my humble opinion it ruins an otherwise good car. Reviews never mention it, so I can only assume it's a personal thing. Do make sure you try the car through a range of corners before buying though, as the nasty thing about it is that it switches over at an average amount of lock, rather than at either extreme, so you can go round one corner with one steering ratio then the next at a different ratio!

You're a sensitive chap, Rob - it never bothers me at all. The steering is still one million times better than any modern BMW I have driven. And it does make the car manoeuvrable at low speed and very stable and easy to steer at high speed.

I do prefer Porsche steering's weight and feel to any of the current post ePAS era BMWs, but the variable ratio drives me crazy. I guess 'better' is a matter of opinion and priorities. I am quite sensitive and easily wound up by things I think. Certain things, usually 'dumbing down' features in modern cars, I find really hard to adapt to, and Porsche steering is one of them.

My theory is that Porsche steering is designed for reactive drivers who adjust the steering throughout a bend; rather than the circuit racing standard, which is to pro-actively turn the steering to the correct angle at turn-in and leave it alone until you come on the throttle, when you release the steering as you accelerate away. The latter technique is designed for a consistent surface throughout the corner, thus its use in circuits as it avoids perturbing the car and therefore allows a driver to stay at the point of maximum grip consistently. The former technique is use where the surface is changing constantly, as in rallying; i.e. the domain of a certain Walter Röhrl...

The trouble is that I've spent years learning how to drive in a smooth and consistent manner to become better and faster on track, and the Porsche steering rack flies in the face of that - do I unlearn the technique and become a worse driver just so I can drive a Porsche? I guess it's the same dilemna as a clutch delay valve (as fitted to BMWs), which encourages a poor standard of driving and punishes a good standard of driving - sadly every time I jump in my Lotus the normal clutch takes me by surprise - my BMW has made my clutch control worse, without doubt.

Every single time I drive a Porsche, I jump in and, as with any other new car, I subsconciously learn the rack's ratio through the first few bends (just as you learn the throttle and brake sensitivity, o the tyre characteristics or the track surface on a particular day), then I come to a tight bend, put in what I think is the right amount of steering, and I find the car's steering too much so I have to back off the steering again, like a learner does. I hate to insult Porsche in this way, but all other proper sports car and racing car manufacurers deliberately seek linearity in their controls, in fact they slave over it; it's normally only everyday cars trying to feel sporty that use non-linear controls to give an impression of more power or response being there than actually is - for example my wife's FN2 CTR throttle map, the steering on any modern Alfa or Vauxhall, or Audi and Volvo brakes. I fear that modern Porsches now fall into the latter category, along with hot hatches and warmed over saloons; rather than the former category, which would include manufacturers like Lotus, Dallara, Mclaren etc. It's really galling, because Porsches should be head and shoulders above the competition with its road cars, but people still flock to Lotus (and rightly so) for the ultimate road going sports car, not because of their ideal weight distribution (Porsche do that much better!) or their bespoke engines (Porsche do this, Lotus don't), or their power outputs (Porsche are usually higher) or lap times (Porsche GT3 will usually beat an Exige), but because Lotus, in contrast to Porsche, make proper sports cars with decent controls that drive well, as opposed to luxury cars that people buy when they've made it, but don't challenge them anymore than their Audi A6 company car that they had beforehand. It's a real shame.

Edited by RobM77 on Friday 30th January 14:34

[V8RX7]

RobM77 said:

variable ratio drives me crazy.

all other proper sports car and racing car manufacurers deliberately seek linearity in their controls, in fact they slave over it; it's normally only everyday cars trying to feel sporty that use non-linear controls to give an impression of more power or response being there than actually is

I fear that modern Porsches now fall into the latter category, along with hot hatches and warmed over saloons; rather than the former category, which would include manufacturers like Lotus, Dallara, Mclaren etc. It's really galling, because Porsches should be head and shoulders above the competition with its road cars,

Lotus, in contrast to Porsche, make proper sports cars with decent controls that drive well, as opposed to luxury cars that people buy when they've made it, but don't challenge them anymore than their Audi A6 company car that they had beforehand. It's a real shame.

If it helps - you're not alone.

However when you look at Lotus V Porsche fortunes we are definitely in a minority

[Lost soul]

1M all day long

[ORD]

I do agree with a lot of what Rob says above. The Porsche forums are full of people, usually the most experienced drivers, saying 'Can't we have back the old steering, please?'

PAS is worse than the 997 hydraulic set up, but even that is hardly pure. Good but mediated by the ratio moving about. I agree.

A bit much to say it makes Porsches like hot hatches. The chassis is fundamentally very bloody good (unlike a hot hatch, which these days only goes around a corner because of electronics), and the engines are still in a different league, along with the brakes.

I couldn't buy a 'sports car' with a 4 pot engine, let alone a 4 pot turbo. For me, that would ruin the experience more than anything in the steering (well, assuming there is still feel and I can learn the rack). I think my ultimate car would be a Singer 911 designed to sit somewhere between a Porsche and a Lotus in philosophy and approach.

You can't stick with one input on most roads I know - bends rarely have a consistent angle, let alone a surface fit for driving on!

[Atmospheric]

Mouse1903 said:

Well decision made, tomorrow morning I will be putting down a deposit on a new 275 Trophy after 4 weeks of hunting for a best deal. Decided on following spec:

Liquid Yellow
19" Speedlines
Ohlins Dampers
Panoramic Sunroof
Electric Foldable Mirrors

Delivery should be mid-end of April, excited!

Very good choice.

[Dblue]

ORD said:

I do agree with a lot of what Rob says above. The Porsche forums are full of people, usually the most experienced drivers, saying 'Can't we have back the old steering, please?'

PAS is worse than the 997 hydraulic set up, but even that is hardly pure. Good but mediated by the ratio moving about. I agree.

A bit much to say it makes Porsches like hot hatches. The chassis is fundamentally very bloody good (unlike a hot hatch, which these days only goes around a corner because of electronics), and the engines are still in a different league, along with the brakes.

I couldn't buy a 'sports car' with a 4 pot engine, let alone a 4 pot turbo. For me, that would ruin the experience more than anything in the steering (well, assuming there is still feel and I can learn the rack). I think my ultimate car would be a Singer 911 designed to sit somewhere between a Porsche and a Lotus in philosophy and approach.

You can't stick with one input on most roads I know - bends rarely have a consistent angle, let alone a surface fit for driving on!

I have spent substantial miles behind the wheel of 2 Renault Megane Trophys and several GT3s. The Renaults share lots and lots of characteristics of the Porsches in the way they drive. There's a shared focus on the really important stuff, the fantastic honed damping, excellent steering, balance and beautifully modulated brakes that in many ways makes them soul mates.

If you dismiss the Renault as inferior because its chassis is inferior and its "just"a turbo 4 pot you are not giving it its due. Theres a bloody good reason it gets such rave reviews and its all about calibration, attention to detail and great engineers doing their thing.It should be celebrated by an enthusiast not derided in such a sniffy way