1M v Cayman R v Golf R400 v Megane 275

[Regiment]

Have you thought about the Mustang Ecoboost, they're sub £30,000? It won't be as practical as a hot hatch but it'll beat any of them in terms of sheer coolness. Out of the listed though, I'd go Renault...my old 250Cup is the best car I've ever driven bar none.

[blueg33]

I have a friend who just sold his 997 because he much prefers the character of the 993, in fact the phrase I used earlier "fast company car" is his phrase. He has also just acquired a 930 turbo

[WCZ]

imo:


1M: probably the one to go for, a genuinely special car
Cayman R: not special enough over the 'S', just a few kg and a few bhp but does have good depreciation and is still a good car
Golf R400: I'd wait for the reviews first, could be very special though
275: completely overrated imo (and yes I have driven one)

[Funkstar De Luxe]

I bought a Cayman (non-s non-r) because I wanted something sporty yet reliable. It was my "boring" choice. Since then it has really, really impressed me. It's dynamic, fun, sounds great. I am grateful every day that I made that choice now.

Goodness knows how good the R must be!

[Vacationboy]

Funkstar De Luxe said:

I bought a Cayman (non-s non-r) because I wanted something sporty yet reliable. It was my "boring" choice. Since then it has really, really impressed me. It's dynamic, fun, sounds great. I am grateful every day that I made that choice now.

Goodness knows how good the R must be!

Its quite epic I`ll tell ya

[Vacationboy]

WCZ said:

imo:


1M: probably the one to go for, a genuinely special car
Cayman R: not special enough over the 'S', just a few kg and a few bhp but does have good depreciation and is still a good car
Golf R400: I'd wait for the reviews first, could be very special though
275: completely overrated imo (and yes I have driven one)

How the 1M, a 1 series with flared arches, very ordinary outdated bmw cabin and a turbocharged lump is genuinely special while a mid-engined NA flat 6 with the same BHP as the 1M is a bit ordinary...well the mind boggles

[ORD]

RobM77 said:

ORD said:

RobM77 said:

I must confess I also agree. I've always wanted a Porsche, and a few years ago I'd saved up enough to buy a new Cayman S. The test drive left me dissapointed though. Sure, the performance and handling and the engineering that produced them were what I expected (top notch), but the feedback and interaction that the car offered were similar to many modern refined saloons, in fact worse than many (after the test drive I jumped into my E36 328i for the drive home, I thought it'd be unfair to bring my Elise, and I found the steering and feedback better in the 328i than the Cayman...). I was honest with the salesman, so on his recommendation I booked in again to drive a car with PASM, but whilst it was a bit better, it still felt like a mainstream Audi. As described previously on this thread, I wouldn't buy a modern Porsche anyway because of the variable ratio steering and throttle lag, but the poster above who says a Cayman or 997 feels like any other mainstream shopping car is bang on the money in my opinion. Once you add in that VR steering and DBW throttle lag, you're not really talking about a sports car anymore, at least not by my definition. I've not driven a GT3/GT2, but I suspect (or should that be 'hope'!) I'd love them.

I sometimes wonder whether people have actually driven an Audi or modern shopping car! No comparison at all.

I spent 3 months with an Audi A4 a couple of years ago. A modern shopping car would be taking things a bit too far though, I take back what I said above.

Maybe it would help for me to say what I mean if I define a scale of involvement in the drive from 1-8:

8 Single seater, Radical (the full experience)
7 Caterham, 2-Eleven (a bit full on for daily use)
6 Exige, Elise (superb, and daily usable for many)
5 Evora (really excellent)
4 MX5, MR2, a very good hot hatch, a good M car (extremely good for a daily usable sports car)
3 A good BMW, a good Mercedes, typical hot hatch (my minimum bar for a daily driver)
2 Fiesta, Civic, Yaris, Audi (the better to drive mundane FWD cars)
1 Vauxhall, Peugeot, Renault (the full on wobbly steering, huge lag on the throttle, zero steering feel etc)

Now, before my first drive in a Porsche, I suspected they'd lie around a 4 or a 5. What dissapointed me about the Cayman S was it seemed to me to be about a 2, maybe a 3 if I'm generous. A friend of mine who had a weekend with a 997 recently described it as similar.

You must be playing Devil's advocate now. I give up. I have driven Audis, Mercs and BMWs a lot recently, and none of them gets close to a 987 or 997 Porsche in terms of involvement. I dunno about 981 and 991, but I doubt Porsche can have destroyed the cars so badly as to be anything like an Audi.

Some obvious and huge differences:-

Steering feel in Audis and BMWs and Mercs: pretty much none that I can find. 987 steering feel is fine - not great, but enough to be getting on with.

Brakes: horrible in pretty much every modern car that I have driven other than 987/997. BMW brakes are terrible, in my experience, in that they are too weak and don't have enough modulation (half travel is usually about 99.9% of braking force); Audi brakes are beyond a joke.

Engine: a massive differentiator - the engines in most cars are there to be tolerated and to do a job, rather than to add to the enjoyment. An NA flat six is in a different league.

[TA14]

Vacationboy said:

WCZ said:

imo:

1M: probably the one to go for, a genuinely special car
Cayman R: not special enough over the 'S', just a few kg and a few bhp but does have good depreciation and is still a good car
Golf R400: I'd wait for the reviews first, could be very special though
275: completely overrated imo (and yes I have driven one)

How the 1M, a 1 series with flared arches, very ordinary outdated bmw cabin and a turbocharged lump is genuinely special while a mid-engined NA flat 6 with the same BHP as the 1M is a bit ordinary...well the mind boggles

Quite

[hondansx]

I drive a 997 and an Audi A5. I nearly LOLd in the office at the thought of them being similar.

This forum can be a dangerous place at times. I'd either learn how to drive or listen to the professionals and buy a car magaszine.

[julian64]

PaulD86 said:

Well I can only speak for the one of the four I own, the Cayman R, but having bought it 3 weeks ago having never driven one but having read many great things I was expecting it to be good and it has massively exceeded my expectations. It's fantastic! I've driven lots of Porsches from 911s to Boxters of various ages and this is my favourite to date (I'm sure a 911 GT3 could change that, but not for £40k) with it being, in my opinion, quite a bit sharper than the Cayman S' I'd been considering before I found the 'R'.

What's really surprised me is that I've enjoyed it while sat behind other cars on A and B roads - it's such a nice car to drive that I can enjoy driving it even at modest speeds, certainly not something I ever said of the Impreza I sold when I bought it (it was only any fun when driving flat out and had nothing of the poise, feel and balance of the Porsche).

Before I bought the 'R' I considered all sorts of things, not quite the same list as you but a 1M or M135i was on the list of possibles. I have zero regrets with my choice. The M135 I looked at was a lovely car, but the Cayman feels more special for me. And before I have Porsche fanboy accusations levelled at me, I was quite honestly not a Porsche fan until I experienced a few of my friends Porsches.

Try out your options and see what you like the feel of, but I doubt you'd regret a Cayman R.


Obligatory pic of car on epic driving road.

I'd regret a cayman R even before I got into it. Ugly thing, one of the few things uglier than a 911

[Vacationboy]

Rob you are talking bks, sorry like.

Wish there was a nicer way of saying it but its just not the case.

I drive a A4 Allroad at work and my Cayman R for when the mood takes me -
I think what you are somewhat saying is that they are good at the things a sportscar usually weren't before,
I can happily potter along in my R and honestly its no stiffer than an Audi Double S-line. Step on it though and its a porsche through and through.
This duality for me ADDS ownership pleasure, not detracts from it. Its a perfect daily.

[RobM77]

ORD said:

RobM77 said:

ORD said:

RobM77 said:

I must confess I also agree. I've always wanted a Porsche, and a few years ago I'd saved up enough to buy a new Cayman S. The test drive left me dissapointed though. Sure, the performance and handling and the engineering that produced them were what I expected (top notch), but the feedback and interaction that the car offered were similar to many modern refined saloons, in fact worse than many (after the test drive I jumped into my E36 328i for the drive home, I thought it'd be unfair to bring my Elise, and I found the steering and feedback better in the 328i than the Cayman...). I was honest with the salesman, so on his recommendation I booked in again to drive a car with PASM, but whilst it was a bit better, it still felt like a mainstream Audi. As described previously on this thread, I wouldn't buy a modern Porsche anyway because of the variable ratio steering and throttle lag, but the poster above who says a Cayman or 997 feels like any other mainstream shopping car is bang on the money in my opinion. Once you add in that VR steering and DBW throttle lag, you're not really talking about a sports car anymore, at least not by my definition. I've not driven a GT3/GT2, but I suspect (or should that be 'hope'!) I'd love them.

I sometimes wonder whether people have actually driven an Audi or modern shopping car! No comparison at all.

I spent 3 months with an Audi A4 a couple of years ago. A modern shopping car would be taking things a bit too far though, I take back what I said above.

Maybe it would help for me to say what I mean if I define a scale of involvement in the drive from 1-8:

8 Single seater, Radical (the full experience)
7 Caterham, 2-Eleven (a bit full on for daily use)
6 Exige, Elise (superb, and daily usable for many)
5 Evora (really excellent)
4 MX5, MR2, a very good hot hatch, a good M car (extremely good for a daily usable sports car)
3 A good BMW, a good Mercedes, typical hot hatch (my minimum bar for a daily driver)
2 Fiesta, Civic, Yaris, Audi (the better to drive mundane FWD cars)
1 Vauxhall, Peugeot, Renault (the full on wobbly steering, huge lag on the throttle, zero steering feel etc)

Now, before my first drive in a Porsche, I suspected they'd lie around a 4 or a 5. What dissapointed me about the Cayman S was it seemed to me to be about a 2, maybe a 3 if I'm generous. A friend of mine who had a weekend with a 997 recently described it as similar.

You must be playing Devil's advocate now. I give up. I have driven Audis, Mercs and BMWs a lot recently, and none of them gets close to a 987 or 997 Porsche in terms of involvement. I dunno about 981 and 991, but I doubt Porsche can have destroyed the cars so badly as to be anything like an Audi.

Some obvious and huge differences:-

Steering feel in Audis and BMWs and Mercs: pretty much none that I can find. 987 steering feel is fine - not great, but enough to be getting on with.

Brakes: horrible in pretty much every modern car that I have driven other than 987/997. BMW brakes are terrible, in my experience, in that they are too weak and don't have enough modulation (half travel is usually about 99.9% of braking force); Audi brakes are beyond a joke.

Engine: a massive differentiator - the engines in most cars are there to be tolerated and to do a job, rather than to add to the enjoyment. An NA flat six is in a different league.

It's ok, I think you've just mis-understood my point, and/or I haven't put it across properly.

Firstly, I've only driven the Cayman - I'm going on the opinion of trusted friends with regard to the 997, which they tell me is similar in terms of involvement (or lack of).

Secondly, I agree with most of your points above: The brake pedal in both Caymans I drove was utterly superb, the best servo assisted brakes I've ever used in fact in terms of pedal feel and progression. The engine is a bespoke built flat six and utterly glorious, although far too insulated from the cabin for my liking. To go further than that, the handling, along with the CofG, suspension design and tuning, dampers etc, is all top drawer and the whole car gels together really nicely. However, I was referring to the feedback and involvement - that feeling of enjoyment you get when you plug into a car's senses. That's what the above scale is referring to, and this is where I felt the Caymans I drove fell down. The steering, yes, has more feel than a modern ePAS BMW, but I felt that my hPAS E36 was better at the time and I don't feel the Cayman's steering feel, what it has that is, contributes enough to the overall experience to rate it more highly in terms of overall driver involvement; it's nowhere near the feel of an Evora's wheel for instance. I definitely stand by my scale and the Cayman's place on it, although I do of course appreciate life is more complicated than a 1 dimensional scale such as that.

I've not driven a GT3, but I would hope that they rate a 6 on the scale, so that they live up to the ample praise they receive. However, I can't help wondering if they can really be that different from the base Carrera that they're based upon; so I fear that the RS/GT3 models of old were probably a 6/7 and the everyday road cars a 4/5, but both have now slipped by two points - that's mere guesswork of course based on the Cayman, I shall reserve judgement until I've tried a 997 and a GT3.

[ORD]

Rob has a fundamentally good point - that Porsche doesn't try anymore to be near the Lotus end of the spectrum of "sports cars" but tends to be closer to the GT end of the market. I certainly agree with that, and I think it is a shame - I would like Porsches to be lighter, less "refined" and to focus less on stability at the expense of sharpness.

However, comparing a Porsche to a boggo Audi is just absurd. I literally cannot tolerate the steering or general driving experience in any Audi that I have driven. It is worse than most shopping cars.

[RobM77]

ORD said:

Rob has a fundamentally good point - that Porsche doesn't try anymore to be near the Lotus end of the spectrum of "sports cars" but tends to be closer to the GT end of the market. I certainly agree with that, and I think it is a shame - I would like Porsches to be lighter, less "refined" and to focus less on stability at the expense of sharpness.

However, comparing a Porsche to a boggo Audi is just absurd. I literally cannot tolerate the steering or general driving experience in any Audi that I have driven. It is worse than most shopping cars.

I think we probably fundamentally agree, it's just extremely odd to find a car like the Cayman that scores so highly for being a sports car in some categories (engine, handling, grip, performance), but relatively (for a sports car) poorly in others (feel, feedback, sensations), so inevitably any slight differences in the extents that define each of those terms are going to lead to clashes of opinion, more than they would with a car that's more consistent with its sportiness.

It seems apparent to me that Porsche build fast cars with premium fit and finish and a high level of comfort, rather than just simply sports cars, like Lotus. So a driver who's moving on from his 335i or C350 into a Cayman S is going to feel like his money's been well spent in all areas, including comfort and refinement. That seems like the natural aspirational ladder for a Cayman or 911 - buyers coming from premium sports saloons. This is in contrast to Lotus, who attract buyers moving on from the MX5, MR2, S2000 and latterly the GT86; or perhaps buyers coming from Caterhams and Atoms who want to use their cars on the road more and demand a bit more comfort.

Lotus of course have in recent years brought out the Evora to try and appeal more to the Porsche type of customer wanting a true 100% daily usable car, and conversely Porsche have their GT line for a Lotus type of customer (albeit with twice the budget!).

I guess my ideal everycar car lies somewhere between the two - a Cayman but with Lotus levels of steering feel, ride and responses; or one could say a Lotus with a bespoke flat six mounted low down and Porsche fit and finish. My priority will always be how a car drives though, thus me being on my second Lotus and never having owned a Porsche.

[ORD]

RobM77 said:

ORD said:

Rob has a fundamentally good point - that Porsche doesn't try anymore to be near the Lotus end of the spectrum of "sports cars" but tends to be closer to the GT end of the market. I certainly agree with that, and I think it is a shame - I would like Porsches to be lighter, less "refined" and to focus less on stability at the expense of sharpness.

However, comparing a Porsche to a boggo Audi is just absurd. I literally cannot tolerate the steering or general driving experience in any Audi that I have driven. It is worse than most shopping cars.

I think we probably fundamentally agree, it's just extremely odd to find a car like the Cayman that scores so highly for being a sports car in some categories (engine, handling, grip, performance), but relatively (for a sports car) poorly in others (feel, feedback, sensations), so inevitably any slight differences in the extents that define each of those terms are going to lead to clashes of opinion, more than they would with a car that's more consistent with its sportiness.

It seems apparent to me that Porsche build fast cars with premium fit and finish and a high level of comfort, rather than just simply sports cars, like Lotus. So a driver who's moving on from his 335i or C350 into a Cayman S is going to feel like his money's been well spent in all areas, including comfort and refinement. That seems like the natural aspirational ladder for a Cayman or 911 - buyers coming from premium sports saloons. This is in contrast to Lotus, who attract buyers moving on from the MX5, MR2, S2000 and latterly the GT86; or perhaps buyers coming from Caterhams and Atoms who want to use their cars on the road more and demand a bit more comfort.

Lotus of course have in recent years brought out the Evora to try and appeal more to the Porsche type of customer wanting a true 100% daily usable car, and conversely Porsche have their GT line for a Lotus type of customer (albeit with twice the budget!).

I guess my ideal everycar car lies somewhere between the two - a Cayman but with Lotus levels of steering feel, ride and responses; or one could say a Lotus with a bespoke flat six mounted low down and Porsche fit and finish. My priority will always be how a car drives though, thus me being on my second Lotus and never having owned a Porsche.

It occurs to me that very wide tyres - and the accompanying requirement for quite a lot of assistance - might make it hard to maintain decent steering feel. I wonder whether a 1400kg car with the accompanying grip and braking requirements can really compete with a 1100kg car for feel and involvement.

I have no idea why Porsche tries to hide the engine sound. The flat six is pretty quiet at a cruise anyway (because Porsche use long gearing so the revs are pretty damn low), and anyone who doesn't want a fair bit of noise at 3000rpm+ shouldn't buy a sports car A waste of a gorgeous-sounding engine.

As usual, I think we largely agree. A less refined Cayman weighing 1200kg would pretty much be my ideal car.

Talking of ideal cars - the new MX5 looks bloody awesome! The Mazda NA 4-pot is quite a nice engine. I doubt I could tolerate the 1.5, but the 2.0 should have plenty of oomph for a 1100kg car, and it revs nicely.

[blueg33]

I didnt say that the Porsches are like the Audi to drive, I said that IMO they are excellent cars but have little more sense of occasion than some Audi's and tend to feel a bit anaodyne. When I say feel, I don't mean to drive, i mean as a place to sit.

[ORD]

blueg33 said:

I didnt say that the Porsches are like the Audi to drive, I said that IMO they are excellent cars but have little more sense of occasion than some Audi's and tend to feel a bit anaodyne. When I say feel, I don't mean to drive, i mean as a place to sit.

Well, that's certainly true of the 981/991 cars. The interior is very much standard "premium car" fare and, to my eyes, very uninspiring.

That said, the reviews talk about the interiors as a big step up from the 987/997, which at least was a bit basic and so better suited to a sports car. Porsche are giving the idiots what they want, unfortunately. (See also the contrived exhaust poppery on the GTS that gets everyone jizzing themselves. Why not just fit a decent, loud exhaust and have the engine as God intended?!)

I find it weird that Porsche takes a lot of flack on this stuff, though, given that the competition (Jag, Aston Martin, etc) make cars that are far worse in all of these respects.

[blueg33]

ORD said:

Well, that's certainly true of the 981/991 cars. The interior is very much standard "premium car" fare and, to my eyes, very uninspiring.

That said, the reviews talk about the interiors as a big step up from the 987/997, which at least was a bit basic and so better suited to a sports car. Porsche are giving the idiots what they want, unfortunately. (See also the contrived exhaust poppery on the GTS that gets everyone jizzing themselves. Why not just fit a decent, loud exhaust and have the engine as God intended?!)

I find it weird that Porsche takes a lot of flack on this stuff, though, given that the competition (Jag, Aston Martin, etc) make cars that are far worse in all of these respects.

I agree, but in some ways Porsche have got it right, most of the people i know with Porsche's are not particularly petrolheads (except Cayman owners), many have bought for the badge and the comfort of knowing they have a good car even if they never get close to exploring its abilities.

Around here the Porsche owners I know are as follows:

Boxsters - mostly ladies who wanted a convertible that isn't a Merc
Caymans - petrolhead blokes (Lotus owners fall into this category)
911's from 996 onwards - mostly people who are successful at work and wanted a premium car with a premium badge. The newer ones are used for business driving as much as anything. Aston owners genedrally fall into this category

To add weight to my theory, many Porsce owners have swappped to Rangies when they havewanted a new car

This means Porsche have their marketing and business model pretty much spot on
Older 911's - petrolheads, including a bloke who owns a Porsche Indy garage

[RobM77]

ORD: I agree with your post entirely. One small point though on this:

[quote=ORD]It occurs to me that very wide tyres - and the accompanying requirement for quite a lot of assistance - might make it hard to maintain decent steering feel. I wonder whether a 1400kg car with the accompanying grip and braking requirements can really compete with a 1100kg car for feel and involvement.[quote]

You're right about wide tyres (plus of course bigger wheels, which lengthen the contact patch), although don't forget that the Evora and now discontinued Esprit V8 were both circa 1380kg and both have very good steering feel. Both use a hydraulic power steering setup - could that be the reason?

[ORD]

RobM77 said:

ORD: I agree with your post entirely. One small point though on this:

ORD]It occurs to me that very wide tyres - and the accompanying requirement for quite a lot of assistance - might make it hard to maintain decent steering feel. I wonder whether a 1400kg car with the accompanying grip and braking requirements can really compete with a 1100kg car for feel and involvement.[quote said:

You're right about wide tyres (plus of course bigger wheels, which lengthen the contact patch), although don't forget that the Evora and now discontinued Esprit V8 were both circa 1380kg and both have very good steering feel. Both use a hydraulic power steering setup - could that be the reason?

Perhaps, but the PAS on 997 and 987 cars is hydraulic, isn't it? It's better than the 981/991 steering, but not by a billion miles. I think the EPAS v HPAS thing can be a bit of a red-herring: some EPAS systems are decent; some HPAS systems are terrible. But maybe the best HPAS systems still deliver far more feel than the best EPAS systems (I wouldn't know, given that I haven't tried the very best EPAS systems, but I have a suspicion that they are not as good as Autocar etc would have us believe).