Supermarket fuel inferior quality says Telegraph. Really?

Supermarket fuel inferior quality says Telegraph. Really?

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Devil2575

13,400 posts

187 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
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I think that a big proportion of what people perceive as better performance is down to placebo and confirmation bias. I've yet to see any statistically valid information to show any real difference.
The biggest difference is in the branding.

Jimmy No Hands

5,007 posts

155 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
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Always use Tesco 99, only about £1.17 near me too. Car is happier on it, I get better mileage. (MK5 GTI)

KTF

9,788 posts

149 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
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If people emptied all the crap out the boot, checked tyres pressures regularly, drove more economically. etc. they would probably get more of an MPG improvement than filling up with snake oil wink

DrDoofenshmirtz

15,185 posts

199 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
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The base product obviously comes from the same refinery. They don't have special refineries just for supermarket fuel. The base product will come from Fawley, Grangemouth etc.
The likes of Shell & BP will then add chemicals to change the fuel properties a bit to sell to people with excess disposable income who want a bit of Ultimate and V-Power Nitro+. The fact that millions of people use supermarket fuel with no ill effect will be lost on these people, because they think their car is more special.
So premium brand fuel will be different because of the magic added ingredients, otherwise trading standards would be after them. But you obviously don't need them.

mclwanB

600 posts

244 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
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Ari said:
This was in the Telegraph at the weekend. I fill up at Sainsburys (super unleaded) as I was lead to believe it all came from the same refineries and there was no material difference in supermarket fuels versus 'branded' fuels.

Interested in people's thoughts on this - should I be filling up with branded fuel instead?

Before using any additives added to the fuel tank not in the fuel I would strongly advise that you check your car's warranty. It invalidates VAG group for example (reason for no contribution towards a new engine at 62.5k/2.5years). Google vag pd 1.9 bxe and pistonheads if interested.

The fuel going to the various retailers is identical but how it is stored and what additives are used varies. My father, former diesel engineer, tells me the additives make a large difference to injector life but you don't need them every time you fill up. I use v power in the diesel every 5-10 tanks, car slightly more economical but one heck of a lot quieter.

The MR2 turbo only gets v power or momentum, previous owner tried it on lower octane fuel and suggested not repeating it. Different if the car isn't set up for 95 (as jap imports usually arent).


Heaveho

5,279 posts

173 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
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I've noticed some interesting, and contrary results from using different fuels in different vehicles...my Evo, mapped on 99 fuel, obviously runs fine on both Tesco and Shell 99, but is also fine being driven hard on most other super unleaded. I monitor stuff like knock, and it makes no difference on that car, either to performance, or economy.

My Ford Connect is significantly better on fuel using the expensive Shell diesel option, and and I stopped using supermarket diesel in it for that reason.


va1o

16,029 posts

206 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
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I've found it depends on the car. On my current Golf diesel it seems to run better on Shell compared to supermarket diesel. On my previous turbo petrol Golf and Leon they seemed agnostic to type of fuel, but the n/a petrol Ibiza I had before those ran like crap on supermarket fuel.

Baryonyx

17,990 posts

158 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
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mini1380cc said:
He could simply mean it works out cheaper per mile. The difference in MPG for my MR2 Turbo meant V-Power was cheaper than 95RON.
I'm surprised you tried your MR2 Turbo on 95RON. I ran mine exclusively on V-Power and once on BP Ultimate when I went to Wetherby. The accepted wisdom was to avoid 95RON.

ging84

8,828 posts

145 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
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i find it funny how people will turn there nose super market fuel, yet they'll happy by branded fuel in a filling station which looks like the pumps haven't been changed in 30 years, and has tanks which probably haven't been replaced in just as long.

Super market fuel stations are maintained with no expense spared, many small franchised shell and bp garages, perhaps not so much

StottyEvo

6,860 posts

162 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
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Glosphil said:
I fill up at whichever location is the cheapest without going out of my way. That includes the local Shell and Tesco or occasional the Sainsburys in the nearest larger town. Never notice any difference in performance or mpg.
I do wonder how much of this increased MPG/power is down to placebo, quite a lot I'd expect.

Heaveho

5,279 posts

173 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
quotequote all
DrDoofenshmirtz said:
The base product obviously comes from the same refinery. They don't have special refineries just for supermarket fuel. The base product will come from Fawley, Grangemouth etc.
The likes of Shell & BP will then add chemicals to change the fuel properties a bit to sell to people with excess disposable income who want a bit of Ultimate and V-Power Nitro+. The fact that millions of people use supermarket fuel with no ill effect will be lost on these people, because they think their car is more special.
So premium brand fuel will be different because of the magic added ingredients, otherwise trading standards would be after them. But you obviously don't need them.
If you tried it and did the maths, you may find that the fact that some vehicles are significantly poorer on fuel when using cheap supermarket fuel shows your point of view to be wrong. Therefore, using the term " people with excess disposable income " to describe people who have experimented and seen the difference for themselves, is not only misleading, but also ill informed. The difference in the price to buy Shell nitro diesel for my work van is outweighed by the improvement in economy, admittedly not by much, but I'm in the camp of people who do think there's something to be gained by using better fuel. I speak from experience.

dcb

5,834 posts

264 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
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aww999 said:
Quite. Assuming this test was done properly, it appears to obviate the need for any anecdotal evidence. If the octane rating of each manufacturers fuel is as advertised, does the mdoern IC car have much (any?) need for fancy additives? Given how many cars make it to two or three hundred thousand miles, and how rare it is for the engine to be the ocmponent which writes off the others, I can't help but wonder why branded manufacturers spend any money at all on refining their additive package.

The average motorist can barely tell whether their tyres have any air in them. Shell and BP would be much better served by investing their money in marketing to imply a small benefit to their fuel, rather than chemists to actually create such a benefit which would probably go unnoticed.
+1

My BMW says it has to run on 91 Oktane or richer. Given that the
weakest petrol available in the UK is 95 Oktane, I think I am
on safe territory.

AFAIK, the only country in Europe that sells 91 Oktane is Austria.
I don't think they sell much of it ;->


KTF

9,788 posts

149 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
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Heaveho said:
If you tried it and did the maths, you may find that the fact that some vehicles are significantly poorer on fuel when using cheap supermarket fuel shows your point of view to be wrong.
Is your maths based on doing a repeated test in the same repeatable conditions after the tank has been completely drained cleaned and refilled between tests?

Chrisbes

58 posts

111 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
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I definitely noticed a difference between Morrisons regular unleaded and V-Power in my MK4 R32. Thought I'd try Tesco Momentum 99 as it's just down the road and Momentum actually seemed to give me better mileage. Since Momentum is always 5p more than regular Tesco unleaded - £1.16/L currently isn't a bad price.

aww999

2,068 posts

260 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
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I don't think anyone is suggesting that buying fuel with a higher octane rating won't give a benefit. As long as your vehicle has an ECU with a knock sensor, you can either use less of it when cruising, or make more power when flat-out.

The issue really is whether supermarket 95RON is any better or worse than BP 95RON. In that instance you are just comparing the extra properties conferred by the additives, over and above knock resistance which would be the same in both fuels. THis leaves thins like injector cleaning, anti-coking, and whatever else they claim the fuel will do for your engine. Is any of that important? Does it make any measurable difference to the behaviour or longevity of the engine? Does it represent good value for money?


If a mass spectrometer can detect no differnce between various samples of 95RON fuel, I highly doubt that my trip computer or finely calibrated arse can!



Edit: Changed "can" in the first sentance for "won't" - sorry for the confusion!

Edited by aww999 on Monday 22 December 12:25

shalmaneser

5,930 posts

194 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
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aww999 said:
kambites said:
madbadger said:
We put some supermarket and branded fuel through our mass spectrometer to have a look.

100.0% the same.
Well that's fairly conclusive then. hehe
Quite. Assuming this test was done properly, it appears to obviate the need for any anecdotal evidence. If the octane rating of each manufacturers fuel is as advertised, does the mdoern IC car have much (any?) need for fancy additives? Given how many cars make it to two or three hundred thousand miles, and how rare it is for the engine to be the ocmponent which writes off the others, I can't help but wonder why branded manufacturers spend any money at all on refining their additive package.

The average motorist can barely tell whether their tyres have any air in them. Shell and BP would be much better served by investing their money in marketing to imply a small benefit to their fuel, rather than chemists to actually create such a benefit which would probably go unnoticed.
This is an excellent point, if they're investing all this time and money in making us better fuels why don't they tell us about it? Why no 'here comes the science' adverts on TV? Most people just don't care, if I was a shareholder I'd want to know why they're wasting their money on R&D for a product no one (some pistonheaders excluded!) wants when I could be getting cash back in dividends!!!

Having said that my old rover used to regularly misfire if I filled it with supermarket petrol, was perfectly behaved on Shell. Anecdotal evidence as ever though.

Grayedout

407 posts

211 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
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dcb said:
+1

My BMW says it has to run on 91 Oktane or richer. Given that the
weakest petrol available in the UK is 95 Oktane, I think I am
on safe territory.

AFAIK, the only country in Europe that sells 91 Oktane is Austria.
I don't think they sell much of it ;->
Octane differences are only a small part of the difference between fuels. All Octane defines is the resistance to knock. Because your BMW can use 91 Octane may mean it has a low compression ratio that will not readily cause any knock issues.

There are many benefits in using higher quality fuels, which contain higher concentrations of additives or higher quality additives or both!

KTF

9,788 posts

149 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
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The 'wonderful' Formula Shell was well worth paying extra for smile

http://royaldutchshellplc.com/2010/07/23/shell-fue...

vtecyo

2,122 posts

128 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
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mini1380cc said:
He could simply mean it works out cheaper per mile. The difference in MPG for my MR2 Turbo meant V-Power was cheaper than 95RON.
That's because JDM imports are mapped for higher octance fuels, so running them on 95ron makes them run like st.

For me, UK specs on Tesco normal, JDM stuff on Momentum 99.

The Wookie

13,909 posts

227 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
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Europa1 said:
That's bizarre. I ran my Evora pretty much exclusively on Sainsburys petrol and had no problems.
My old S ran fine on pretty much anything, although it was a bit more responsive on Super. The n/a is definitely twitchy with fuel for some reason.

I get a bit of part throttle 'fluffing' but the limp home mode only happens after a 2-3 hour fast run