RE: Rare vintage: PH Blog
Discussion
I agree with the sentiment, but feel that the watershed is arbitrary and really depends on your point if view. I think it is flawed to say that cars were only built properly after a certain date, Mercedes, Bentley, Bristol, McLaren would all have something to say about that. My golden period is from the early 70's when fuel injection and disc brakes became the norm, up until the early 90's where we had w124 mercs, the E34 M5, Japanese cars designed to last half a million miles, with simple ECU's and turbocharged engines that could be tinkered with in your shed. Also by then we had ABS, which with todays motorway drivers who stamp on their brakes at the mere sniff of another car, and airbags that saved my life in an accident. Add to this the last if the great hot hatches and rally car derivatives, and you have (in my opinion!) The 20 years that pistonheads will reflect on like baby boomers do the 60's.
Just add the RS2 to make me happy.
Just add the RS2 to make me happy.
Urban Sports said:
This thing called progress clearly isn't to everybody's taste 
I for one enjoy and embrace the technology and the direction that modern cars are going, I like modern cars very much and I always appreciate the next generation when they are released.
I also like classic cars very much for what they are, old and in some ways very involving, I can't knock progress though, IMO it's for the better, it maybe that it's different but in most cases it's better.
Some modern features are great no doubt, but for sheer driver involvement you can't beat a manual rear drive car with a bit of power. Sometimes it's nice to mess up a gear change, or put too much throttle on without electronics intervening. It gets to the point that driving no longer becomes a challenge. I for one enjoy and embrace the technology and the direction that modern cars are going, I like modern cars very much and I always appreciate the next generation when they are released.
I also like classic cars very much for what they are, old and in some ways very involving, I can't knock progress though, IMO it's for the better, it maybe that it's different but in most cases it's better.
To draw a comparison, you can get into an a modern airliner now, take off & 10 seconds later engage the autopilot that will fly the aircraft all the way until you have to turn off the runway after landing. Is that really flying? Or would a spin in a red bull air racer actually be more fun? You can't knock the technology, but it is increasingly eating away at "real" driving.
RWD cossie wil said:
Urban Sports said:
This thing called progress clearly isn't to everybody's taste
I for one enjoy and embrace the technology and the direction that modern cars are going, I like modern cars very much and I always appreciate the next generation when they are released.
I also like classic cars very much for what they are, old and in some ways very involving, I can't knock progress though, IMO it's for the better, it maybe that it's different but in most cases it's better.
Some modern features are great no doubt, but for sheer driver involvement you can't beat a manual rear drive car with a bit of power. Sometimes it's nice to mess up a gear change, or put too much throttle on without electronics intervening. It gets to the point that driving no longer becomes a challenge. I for one enjoy and embrace the technology and the direction that modern cars are going, I like modern cars very much and I always appreciate the next generation when they are released.
I also like classic cars very much for what they are, old and in some ways very involving, I can't knock progress though, IMO it's for the better, it maybe that it's different but in most cases it's better.
To draw a comparison, you can get into an a modern airliner now, take off & 10 seconds later engage the autopilot that will fly the aircraft all the way until you have to turn off the runway after landing. Is that really flying? Or would a spin in a red bull air racer actually be more fun? You can't knock the technology, but it is increasingly eating away at "real" driving.
But just as sitting in a Boeing 787 isn't 'really flying' and sitting in an ADAS'ed Merc S-class on the M1 isn't 'really driving', that's not the point. In each case technology makes transportation safer and more comfortable. Safety is the key thing and if you look at the decline in death rates on British roads compared to the rise in traffic volume over the last 5 decades it's hard to argue there hasn't been huge progress.
A massive change to driving life since the '80s and '90s is the advent and proliferation of track days. In some respects you could argue that they give more justification for the availability of drivers' cars than ever before. Thanks to UK type approval rules, in addition to all the electronic, digital, nannying cr@p we have a wider choice of really entertaining cars than ever before, even if finding a responsive, seat-of-the-pants steer on sale at the local BMW dealer is harder than it used to be. In the 1970s-1990s, I don't think there was as broad a choice of decently-made drivers cars as there is now - think BAC Mono, Radical, Ariel Atom, McLaren, KTM, Zenos, Morgan, Caterham and Westfield - even before you get to RS Renaults and AMG Mercs...
Drivers' cars ARE there for those who want them: the market does know we exist and caters to us. The sad truth is that the the average car is now more likely to protect us than entertain us, though (whisper) that might be a good thing and it is also worth remembering that even in the good ol' days, Ford Sierras and Vauxhall Vectras outsold Peugeot 405s...
BricktopST205 said:
For what ever reason the Japanese at least have all but stopped producing these gems over the past decade which is a shame for us petrol heads all around the world.
I am hoping there will be a new Supra and NSX along soon to prove you wrong Edited by BricktopST205 on Monday 22 December 23:23
The LFA was a pretty good calling card too, and from a pretty unexpected source!
I would add, that despite having ever more niches explored by the premium makers, choice is down compared what we had 10-20 years ago.
Back then the Japanese auto industry was in its golden age, produced loads of interesting cars. The Americans still produced the last examples of their proper body-on-frame full sized sedans that I find strangely appealing (hence I bought one of these). European manufacturers were easier to set apart, the French cars were French, Italians like Italians, roads weren't flooded by generic and utterly boring VW clones.
Back then the Japanese auto industry was in its golden age, produced loads of interesting cars. The Americans still produced the last examples of their proper body-on-frame full sized sedans that I find strangely appealing (hence I bought one of these). European manufacturers were easier to set apart, the French cars were French, Italians like Italians, roads weren't flooded by generic and utterly boring VW clones.
optimal909 said:
I would add, that despite having ever more niches explored by the premium makers, choice is down compared what we had 10-20 years ago.
Back then the Japanese auto industry was in its golden age, produced loads of interesting cars. The Americans still produced the last examples of their proper body-on-frame full sized sedans that I find strangely appealing (hence I bought one of these). European manufacturers were easier to set apart, the French cars were French, Italians like Italians, roads weren't flooded by generic and utterly boring VW clones.
Good point.Back then the Japanese auto industry was in its golden age, produced loads of interesting cars. The Americans still produced the last examples of their proper body-on-frame full sized sedans that I find strangely appealing (hence I bought one of these). European manufacturers were easier to set apart, the French cars were French, Italians like Italians, roads weren't flooded by generic and utterly boring VW clones.
Going to have to get myself a Morgan Three Wheeler. Wish the mid-life crisis didn't coincide with the mid-life cash flow crunch.
Problem is, more and more buyers don't feel they are getting enough for what they pay for if they don't have all the electrical gadgetry that comes with modern cars. The generation weaned on the Playstation/Xbox etc, have now grown up and want the dual clutch gearboxes, different suspension modes and throttle settings to tweak, G metres, and iDevice compatibility etc. Cars can now park themselves for god sake!! Doesn't help that the public are constantly bombarded with safety, safety on the road, manufacturers focusing on safety features on the cars, cars that brake for you if you get too close to the car in front, cars that keep you in your lane, automatic this and automatic that, speed limits enforcements cameras and speed humps everywhere, congestion etc. basically everything that takes the driving and the fun out of driving. I'd also argue that it is more than just driving, it is the total ownership experience. You can't tinker with a car anymore without a computer science degree. With my current car, you have to reset onboard computer settings after changing brake pads and disks, undo and pull off masses of plastic coverings to change spark plugs, rely on electrical gadgetry to simply check oil level (no dip stick!), you simply can't use do anything without specialised tools that only dealerships and specialist garages can get hold of. I sometimes regret selling my old Clio Trophy, here was a car that had simple mechanical engineering, minimal electronic nannying that drove well and was easy to tinker with and fix/maintain.
As a PH'er I applaud the progress being made in sports cars, especially considering not so long ago the sports car was declared dead.
But the modes, gadgets, re mapping etc is the work of the marketing guys and they do that to sell cars. If the next M3 came sans adjustable suspension the average buyer would be stepping right into the show room of the competitor that did offer "comfort mode","sport mode", "sport plus mode" etc.
The analogue car is long gone and has been replaced by something that can go just as fast with half the skill.
a dab of oppo is not a skill the average driver has and now your average hot hatch is nudging 275 bhp. Agrred tyre tech has come on leaps and bounds and you have to be pretty ham fisted to unsettle any modern sports car in the dry.
But the modes, gadgets, re mapping etc is the work of the marketing guys and they do that to sell cars. If the next M3 came sans adjustable suspension the average buyer would be stepping right into the show room of the competitor that did offer "comfort mode","sport mode", "sport plus mode" etc.
The analogue car is long gone and has been replaced by something that can go just as fast with half the skill.
a dab of oppo is not a skill the average driver has and now your average hot hatch is nudging 275 bhp. Agrred tyre tech has come on leaps and bounds and you have to be pretty ham fisted to unsettle any modern sports car in the dry.
How's this for progress: My C250BlueTEC estate has 204BHP, the same as the original Sierra Cosworth, and almost twice the peak torque (500Nm-v-Sierra 276Nm). Sounds promising, but it also has a kerb weight of 1,660kg against the Sierra's 1,217kg - 36% more...
Does use half the fuel of the Sierra, of course....
Does use half the fuel of the Sierra, of course....
Ok so the other half is for the very first time in her life exploring rear wheel drive (she's a bit younger than the dinosaur she lives with) and though she's had a succession of ever faster front drivers I keep hearing little giggles when she clogs it out of a roundabout. She's also amazed at how positive the steering is without driveshafts corrupting it.
So while it may not be ultimately communicative at the Caterhams I used to punt around, the M135i loaded with safety gizmos and adjustable things (though manual and with standard dampers) is still capable of giving all the thrills while also ensuring that she doesn't communicate with the furniture as both me and my brother did while learning the ropes of more 'communicative' cars.
We just have to keep buying them to make sure they build them!
So while it may not be ultimately communicative at the Caterhams I used to punt around, the M135i loaded with safety gizmos and adjustable things (though manual and with standard dampers) is still capable of giving all the thrills while also ensuring that she doesn't communicate with the furniture as both me and my brother did while learning the ropes of more 'communicative' cars.
We just have to keep buying them to make sure they build them!
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