RE: Light cars are not the answer: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
Having owned relatively light cars (Elise, Z-cars R1 mini), a few heavy-ish ones (currently a Nissan GT-R) and quite a few that fall in the middle ground I'd say it's all a matter of tools for the job.
The Elise and Z-cars mini were great on the tight, technical, twisty stuff, and were easy on consumables. My M3 CSL ultimately lacked traction (something highlighted by the 997 C2S that followed it), and both were ultimately too heavy for track use, resulting in high consumption of brakes and tyres.
The GT-R is likely to devour consumables at an alarming rate also, but it simply monsters every scenario - traction, grip, direction changes & braking in such a way as to totally bely it's mass. Not sure you'd ever want to campaign one in a hill-climb championship, nor do a full season of track days (unless you're a millionaire!), but as an all round practical road car, it's hard to beat. I like heavy!
The Elise and Z-cars mini were great on the tight, technical, twisty stuff, and were easy on consumables. My M3 CSL ultimately lacked traction (something highlighted by the 997 C2S that followed it), and both were ultimately too heavy for track use, resulting in high consumption of brakes and tyres.
The GT-R is likely to devour consumables at an alarming rate also, but it simply monsters every scenario - traction, grip, direction changes & braking in such a way as to totally bely it's mass. Not sure you'd ever want to campaign one in a hill-climb championship, nor do a full season of track days (unless you're a millionaire!), but as an all round practical road car, it's hard to beat. I like heavy!
V8 FOU said:
Light weight cars always feel more agile, more, well, fun. My track Bentley has been transformed by losing 350kg. The OH has a fiat Seicento Sporting, not very powerful, but at around 750kg a real hoot.
Much of todays weight comes from safety systems - side impact bars, tct, airbags by the dozen, multi ECU's etc. The 4C is about right IMO. You could add add a little sound insulation for a very small weigh penalty to reduce engine noise if that really bothers you.
Heavy cars - better grip? Oh really? A Lotus Elan is still a benchmark for handling and grip, on 155 section tyres!
Surely the tyres should be designed for the weight of the car. Saying "a light car grips better" is dependant on the whole car being designed in one hit. That said my M5 is no lightweight but has fantastic handling on its 275s IMHO. Designed as a whole....Much of todays weight comes from safety systems - side impact bars, tct, airbags by the dozen, multi ECU's etc. The 4C is about right IMO. You could add add a little sound insulation for a very small weigh penalty to reduce engine noise if that really bothers you.
Heavy cars - better grip? Oh really? A Lotus Elan is still a benchmark for handling and grip, on 155 section tyres!
D.no said:
Having owned relatively light cars (Elise, Z-cars R1 mini), a few heavy-ish ones (currently a Nissan GT-R) and quite a few that fall in the middle ground I'd say it's all a matter of tools for the job.
The Elise and Z-cars mini were great on the tight, technical, twisty stuff, and were easy on consumables. My M3 CSL ultimately lacked traction (something highlighted by the 997 C2S that followed it), and both were ultimately too heavy for track use, resulting in high consumption of brakes and tyres.
The GT-R is likely to devour consumables at an alarming rate also, but it simply monsters every scenario - traction, grip, direction changes & braking in such a way as to totally bely it's mass. Not sure you'd ever want to campaign one in a hill-climb championship, nor do a full season of track days (unless you're a millionaire!), but as an all round practical road car, it's hard to beat. I like heavy!
Point well made Sir!The Elise and Z-cars mini were great on the tight, technical, twisty stuff, and were easy on consumables. My M3 CSL ultimately lacked traction (something highlighted by the 997 C2S that followed it), and both were ultimately too heavy for track use, resulting in high consumption of brakes and tyres.
The GT-R is likely to devour consumables at an alarming rate also, but it simply monsters every scenario - traction, grip, direction changes & braking in such a way as to totally bely it's mass. Not sure you'd ever want to campaign one in a hill-climb championship, nor do a full season of track days (unless you're a millionaire!), but as an all round practical road car, it's hard to beat. I like heavy!
Im in disagreement here. Having owned a Lotus Elise VHPD and a series of other high performance cars, such as integra, supra, trans ams etc. Weight is a fun killer.
You mentioned F1 cars having ridiculous low weight and huge amounts of downforce. Downforce and weight are not exactly in parity. correct me if im wrong.
This whole topic goes against all the articles ive read over the years and my personal experience.
I would however agree that in most cased the heavier cars tend to offer a better ride quality.
Also heavier car by no means makes it easier to drive, not sure where that is coming from.
You mentioned F1 cars having ridiculous low weight and huge amounts of downforce. Downforce and weight are not exactly in parity. correct me if im wrong.
This whole topic goes against all the articles ive read over the years and my personal experience.
I would however agree that in most cased the heavier cars tend to offer a better ride quality.
Also heavier car by no means makes it easier to drive, not sure where that is coming from.
Edited by turbo159 on Thursday 8th January 16:52
jamespink said:
D.no said:
Having owned relatively light cars (Elise, Z-cars R1 mini), a few heavy-ish ones (currently a Nissan GT-R) and quite a few that fall in the middle ground I'd say it's all a matter of tools for the job.
The Elise and Z-cars mini were great on the tight, technical, twisty stuff, and were easy on consumables. My M3 CSL ultimately lacked traction (something highlighted by the 997 C2S that followed it), and both were ultimately too heavy for track use, resulting in high consumption of brakes and tyres.
The GT-R is likely to devour consumables at an alarming rate also, but it simply monsters every scenario - traction, grip, direction changes & braking in such a way as to totally bely it's mass. Not sure you'd ever want to campaign one in a hill-climb championship, nor do a full season of track days (unless you're a millionaire!), but as an all round practical road car, it's hard to beat. I like heavy!
Point well made Sir!The Elise and Z-cars mini were great on the tight, technical, twisty stuff, and were easy on consumables. My M3 CSL ultimately lacked traction (something highlighted by the 997 C2S that followed it), and both were ultimately too heavy for track use, resulting in high consumption of brakes and tyres.
The GT-R is likely to devour consumables at an alarming rate also, but it simply monsters every scenario - traction, grip, direction changes & braking in such a way as to totally bely it's mass. Not sure you'd ever want to campaign one in a hill-climb championship, nor do a full season of track days (unless you're a millionaire!), but as an all round practical road car, it's hard to beat. I like heavy!
My understanding is that the extra grip from having more weight is exactly balanced in cornering by the extra inertia you're fighting against so the weight of the car doesn't affect cornering ability from that perspective. The advantage of lighter cars however is in the propensity to resist roll and the ease of changing direction.
Regardless, my 540kg Vortx feels orders of magnitude more fun, nimble and involving than any tonne+ sportscar I've ever driven. I've never had a shot in something like a GTR that claims to hide it's weight so excellently but I'm extremely sceptical that it wouldn't feel slightly barge like in comparison and looking at comparative laptimes, very light kit cars definitely seem to have the advantage in corners despite the lack of clever technology.
Regardless, my 540kg Vortx feels orders of magnitude more fun, nimble and involving than any tonne+ sportscar I've ever driven. I've never had a shot in something like a GTR that claims to hide it's weight so excellently but I'm extremely sceptical that it wouldn't feel slightly barge like in comparison and looking at comparative laptimes, very light kit cars definitely seem to have the advantage in corners despite the lack of clever technology.
Sway said:
Well considered article, although I disagree with some of the conclusions...
My GTM has a monocoque that's lighter than an Elise one, almost twice as stiff, as well as having comfortable and compliant suspension.
That was designed and built by a couple of guys in a shed.
I've not driven a 4C, but sitting in it highlighted a few things - appalling ergonomics. It's also got the wrong engine (although it's noise can easily be solved for minimal weight impact).
However, things like the XE could be much lighter, and would be better driver's cars if they were (not to say they aren't currently brilliant). The relationship of sprung to unsprung mass has an impact. The design and approach of that clever suspension could have been more innovative, but that would have cost more.
Grip is another thing. Increasing grip does not equal increasing enjoyment. The two are completely separate.
Conflating stiffness and grip with weight and enjoyment undermines your argument.
Good pointsMy GTM has a monocoque that's lighter than an Elise one, almost twice as stiff, as well as having comfortable and compliant suspension.
That was designed and built by a couple of guys in a shed.
I've not driven a 4C, but sitting in it highlighted a few things - appalling ergonomics. It's also got the wrong engine (although it's noise can easily be solved for minimal weight impact).
However, things like the XE could be much lighter, and would be better driver's cars if they were (not to say they aren't currently brilliant). The relationship of sprung to unsprung mass has an impact. The design and approach of that clever suspension could have been more innovative, but that would have cost more.
Grip is another thing. Increasing grip does not equal increasing enjoyment. The two are completely separate.
Conflating stiffness and grip with weight and enjoyment undermines your argument.
I just want to throw it out there that if a manufacturer wants to make a lightweight car that can have 1 ton of downforce at a reasonable speed I'll throw money at it.
Even the P1, LaFerrari, Hyarua (god know's how that's spelt) aren't quite there yet although they possess RIDICULOUS levels of downforce!
Scratch that, even a GT cars level of downforce would be nice. I want electronic wings, adaptive air suspension, hybrid, everything.
Even the P1, LaFerrari, Hyarua (god know's how that's spelt) aren't quite there yet although they possess RIDICULOUS levels of downforce!
Scratch that, even a GT cars level of downforce would be nice. I want electronic wings, adaptive air suspension, hybrid, everything.
T0MMY said:
My understanding is that the extra grip from having more weight is exactly balanced in cornering by the extra inertia you're fighting against
Don't think it is a linear relationship, but someone smarter than me can probably clarify.Also more weight = slower acceleration and deceleration, regardless of cornering.
exceed said:
I just want to throw it out there that if a manufacturer wants to make a lightweight car that can have 1 ton of downforce at a reasonable speed I'll throw money at it.
An F1 car has to be going pretty damned fast to generate a tonne of downforce. I can't see a vehicle running at a ride height suitable for use on the road managing it. DeltonaS said:
kambites said:
The XE is 30cm(!) longer and 5cm wider and 5cm higher than the 159 saloon.
We're talking about a Xe here mate, not an XJ......
The XE is still bigger than the 159 though. 1.2cm longer; 2.2cm wider and 1mm lower.
Were the sportier 159s running lower? The figure I found for height was 1417.
Anyway, we can both agree that the XE is the bigger car? It'll also carry a weight penalty for being longitudinal engined and RWD and another for all the safety crap cars have to carry these days.
I did think 30cm longer sounded rather unlikely. Hence the "(!)".
Anyway, we can both agree that the XE is the bigger car? It'll also carry a weight penalty for being longitudinal engined and RWD and another for all the safety crap cars have to carry these days.
I did think 30cm longer sounded rather unlikely. Hence the "(!)".
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