RE: Honda NSX - Detroit 2015
Discussion
mrclav said:
wouldn't say that the i8 is a bad product but I think the NSX is going to be in a completely different class performance wise. They're aiming for 458/650s/GT-R territory, not 991 Carrera 2 territory (which even the i8 can't match really).
And no doubt they will get there but this car is too late. If you told me it was a direct competitor for the GTR coming in at circa 85k I would say it had a chance.Dagnut said:
When is the last time Honda delivered an "exceptional product" to the car market?
I was thinking of this point earlier, and to be honest I'd have to say Honda has to rank as one of the most consistent manufacturers when it comes to making very good products. Being a good product doesn't necessarily mean you, or I, or any other individual person has to like them, but if you consider it impartially...The Jazz is a car often slated on PH for being a pensioner's runabout. This possibly is fair, but it ignores the fundamental fact that if you are a pensioner, the Jazz is a brilliant product - affordable, very reliable, very spacious, modern, economical and efficient - and is exactly what the target customer desires. As it happens I personally quite like the design of the Jazz, but all things being equal it's not a car I'd buy at this point in my life - but it's still a brilliant product.
The Civic, Accord and CR-V thingies I'd suggest are similar - possibly less fashionable, or less prestigious, or less affordable than some of their competitors but overall giving their owners exactly what they want and need.
I'd agree that of late, Honda's qualities and competence has perhaps been obscured somewhat by dullness and perhaps even that very competence itself - everyone expects a Honda to be a good car, so no one gets really excited when it is indeed good. If the NSX, the supposed S2000 replacement, the Civic Type-R and the F1 involvement add some excitement to that very worthy image then I think we'll be seeing something of a revival in Honda's reputation for making interesting and indeed exceptional products.
- Civic - as above in a slightly larger package, soon to have a bit of boost with the Type-R.
- Accord - not very popular in the UK, but one of the World's best-selling cars and again doing exactly what it's designed to do.
Dagnut said:
forzaminardi said:
Stuff.
So how does that make them different to any other manufacturer????andyps said:
dukebox9reg said:
Surprised it took until the 4th page before the GTR was mentioned really. 4wd and 550bhp is very similar and with the next GTR rumoured to be going down the hybrid route aswell its the 90's all over again just at double/triple the pirce point.
Where's the supra now?
Here:Where's the supra now?
Edited by dukebox9reg on Tuesday 13th January 12:26
Dagnut said:
And no doubt they will get there but this car is too late. If you told me it was a direct competitor for the GTR coming in at circa 85k I would say it had a chance.
No, the NSX isn't late at all - it's actually the first car of its type at the price point being mooted. Also, if the NSX is lighter, more efficient and performs as well as a GT-R then everyone else is definitely going to have to pull their socks up. Bear in mind the next-gen GT-R will maybe follow the NSX's lead in that it'll quite possibly be a hybrid of some sort.rb26 said:
To be fair they have stated 550+ so we are yet to get official performance figures. I for one am liking the aesthetics (apart from the chrome beak at the front) and am looking forward to see how it performs, I wish Honda the best of luck with this new NSX. However I'd like to echo what others have said in regards to Honda making a similar car minus the ground-breaking technology, AWD and paddle-shift (in the £50,000-65,000 please if possible). Not that I would be in the market for that right now but hopefully in the near future.
Did you think they built an entire R&D and Performance Car Manufacturing Centre just for a few thousand of these.....??Watch this space ..... though it being Honda, you might be watching a while....
JMF894 said:
Styling wise it is fussy and the tech is way too complicated for me.
Totally misses the point of the original.
No thanks
Jimbo
How has it missed the point of the original exactly?? New Tech, new manufacturing processes and a car to match the prestige without asking prestige price??Totally misses the point of the original.
No thanks
Jimbo
EskimoArapaho said:
mjames75 said:
If the new one looked any thing like the old one it would get slated
Sort of. 
I'm a bit disappointed that this very modern-looking body shape means there's no 'bubble canopy' as with the first NSX. That- IMHO - was a standout example of the Japanese engineers' clear thinking.http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1990thens...
mrclav said:
Dagnut said:
And no doubt they will get there but this car is too late. If you told me it was a direct competitor for the GTR coming in at circa 85k I would say it had a chance.
No, the NSX isn't late at all - it's actually the first car of its type at the price point being mooted. Also, if the NSX is lighter, more efficient and performs as well as a GT-R then everyone else is definitely going to have to pull their socks up. Bear in mind the next-gen GT-R will maybe follow the NSX's lead in that it'll quite possibly be a hybrid of some sort.unsprung said:
It's a progressive vehicle in more ways than one. Here's an illuminating background story on the designer of the NSX.
I take it she's obsessed with headlights? How many does one car need?mrclav said:
o, I can't agree as you're only thinking about their cars. Look at their new HA420 HondaJet as an example of engineering genius. Built from composite materials, the most fuel-efficient and fastest jet in its class, a simply brilliant solution with the engine mounting to improve interior space and reduce interior noise, a new type of wing design and avionics that reduce workload and can be operated by a single pilot.
In case anyone was doubting, I'm a firm fan of what the company is about and believe the new NSX will be an amazing product.
Company ego trips, aside, what have they done to innovate in motoring in the last 15 years? The car range is dire and has been getting steadily blander every cycle. I used to be a huge Honda fan but they just don't seem to cater for enthusiasts anymore. Hopefully this is a turn around. Currently reading The Honda Myth by Masaaki Sato. If you haven't read it yet, I strongly recommend it. Fascinating.In case anyone was doubting, I'm a firm fan of what the company is about and believe the new NSX will be an amazing product.
Edited by Ali_T on Tuesday 13th January 15:15
Dagnut said:
How do you credit the NSX with taking the lead with Hybrid technology? What exactly is this car doing that is new?
I didn't say it was taking the lead. I said it was bringing the tech employed by other makers at a far lower price point. What is new is the price point if not the tech itself (although it is still all pretty new).forzaminardi said:
I was thinking of this point earlier, and to be honest I'd have to say Honda has to rank as one of the most consistent manufacturers when it comes to making very good products. Being a good product doesn't necessarily mean you, or I, or any other individual person has to like them, but if you consider it impartially...
The Jazz is a car often slated on PH for being a pensioner's runabout. This possibly is fair, but it ignores the fundamental fact that if you are a pensioner, the Jazz is a brilliant product - affordable, very reliable, very spacious, modern, economical and efficient - and is exactly what the target customer desires. As it happens I personally quite like the design of the Jazz, but all things being equal it's not a car I'd buy at this point in my life - but it's still a brilliant product.
The Civic, Accord and CR-V thingies I'd suggest are similar - possibly less fashionable, or less prestigious, or less affordable than some of their competitors but overall giving their owners exactly what they want and need.
I'd agree that of late, Honda's qualities and competence has perhaps been obscured somewhat by dullness and perhaps even that very competence itself - everyone expects a Honda to be a good car, so no one gets really excited when it is indeed good. If the NSX, the supposed S2000 replacement, the Civic Type-R and the F1 involvement add some excitement to that very worthy image then I think we'll be seeing something of a revival in Honda's reputation for making interesting and indeed exceptional products.
- Civic - as above in a slightly larger package, soon to have a bit of boost with the Type-R.
- Accord - not very popular in the UK, but one of the World's best-selling cars and again doing exactly what it's designed to do.
"To imitate is to imitate forever."The Jazz is a car often slated on PH for being a pensioner's runabout. This possibly is fair, but it ignores the fundamental fact that if you are a pensioner, the Jazz is a brilliant product - affordable, very reliable, very spacious, modern, economical and efficient - and is exactly what the target customer desires. As it happens I personally quite like the design of the Jazz, but all things being equal it's not a car I'd buy at this point in my life - but it's still a brilliant product.
The Civic, Accord and CR-V thingies I'd suggest are similar - possibly less fashionable, or less prestigious, or less affordable than some of their competitors but overall giving their owners exactly what they want and need.
I'd agree that of late, Honda's qualities and competence has perhaps been obscured somewhat by dullness and perhaps even that very competence itself - everyone expects a Honda to be a good car, so no one gets really excited when it is indeed good. If the NSX, the supposed S2000 replacement, the Civic Type-R and the F1 involvement add some excitement to that very worthy image then I think we'll be seeing something of a revival in Honda's reputation for making interesting and indeed exceptional products.
- Civic - as above in a slightly larger package, soon to have a bit of boost with the Type-R.
- Accord - not very popular in the UK, but one of the World's best-selling cars and again doing exactly what it's designed to do.
"If you make a superior product, people will buy it. "
"I’d sooner die than imitate other people…That’s why we had to work so hard! Because we didn’t imitate. "
"The value of life can be measured by how many times your soul has been deeply stirred."
Soichiro Honda
Good job the old man isn't around anymore. His soul would be moribund driving his own products.
Edited by Ali_T on Tuesday 13th January 15:21
Ali_T said:
Company ego trips, aside, what have they done to innovate in the last 15 years? The car range is dire and has been getting steadily blander every cycle. I used to be a huge Honda fan but they just don't seem to cater for enthusiasts anymore. Hopefully this is a turn around. Currently reading The Honda Myth by Masaaki Sato. If you haven't read it yet, I strongly recommend it. Fascinating.
I will check that out thanks for that! You said "the past 15 years have been pretty dire in terms of new product" not "new cars", hence me bringing up the HondaJet which is an innovative product and from what I've read a bit of a game-changer. Whilst I agree that their car range currently might not be the most exciting, they are obviously more than a car maker.Even if we only focus on their cars, as I said before they sell more than BMW do worldwide (they're the worlds 8th biggest manufacturer) which would imply they a) know their market pretty well and b) supply them with what their customers demand at the price they can afford...? And do you think they are worse than BMW are when it comes to how they actually make their product?
Oh, I think BMW make their products pretty poorly, to be honest. Much like Audi, it's all superficial gloss with a lot of decontenting under the skin, these days. Again, they used to be far better.
Honda make them well enough, though I still hold that Swindon is behind Japan by too wide a margin, mainly down to relying on European suppliers, so the quality us often no better than other European manufacturers. But the engineering is just slowly giving way to gimmicks over substance. I'm old enough to remember when Honda adverts in the mid to late 80s made a big deal over their superior visibility, low bonnet and waste lines, double wishbone suspension, advanced engines and, let's not forget, Pininfarina inspired styling (often by Pininfarina themselves under a non disclosure agreement).
Look at today's Civic with that in mind and you have to wonder what went wrong! The engines, you could argue, but they no longer have any form of gap between themselves and the competition. The old B, D, H and F series engines were miles in front of anyone else's at the price point. But the fact that the Civic now has terrible visibility, pointless styling affectations, Macpherson struts at the front and a torsion beam at the rear, to me, shows a serious decline in engineering focus. If you look at the actual suspension of an EF or EG series Civic, is almost artful in it's design, cramming a double wishbone into a remarkably small space and still functioning with proper geometry. A torsion beam? Would have been heresy in those days. It might work OK, but that's not the point. In those days, it had to excel.
Honda make them well enough, though I still hold that Swindon is behind Japan by too wide a margin, mainly down to relying on European suppliers, so the quality us often no better than other European manufacturers. But the engineering is just slowly giving way to gimmicks over substance. I'm old enough to remember when Honda adverts in the mid to late 80s made a big deal over their superior visibility, low bonnet and waste lines, double wishbone suspension, advanced engines and, let's not forget, Pininfarina inspired styling (often by Pininfarina themselves under a non disclosure agreement).
Look at today's Civic with that in mind and you have to wonder what went wrong! The engines, you could argue, but they no longer have any form of gap between themselves and the competition. The old B, D, H and F series engines were miles in front of anyone else's at the price point. But the fact that the Civic now has terrible visibility, pointless styling affectations, Macpherson struts at the front and a torsion beam at the rear, to me, shows a serious decline in engineering focus. If you look at the actual suspension of an EF or EG series Civic, is almost artful in it's design, cramming a double wishbone into a remarkably small space and still functioning with proper geometry. A torsion beam? Would have been heresy in those days. It might work OK, but that's not the point. In those days, it had to excel.
Edited by Ali_T on Tuesday 13th January 15:30
alexpa said:
What are the numbers please????
Is 1500kg at the kerb, 750bhp and 750lbft a reasonable (hopefull!!) guess
Why make it 550bhp system total, why match the GTR when you have two motors to assist
3.5l TT V6 say 550bhp and 100bhp at each front wheel from the motors. Could really push the boat out and make the motors inboard (less unsprung weight) and replace the front brakes altogether (even less unsprung weight) - for full re-gen.
The motors will be inboard, almost guaranteed...Is 1500kg at the kerb, 750bhp and 750lbft a reasonable (hopefull!!) guess
Why make it 550bhp system total, why match the GTR when you have two motors to assist
3.5l TT V6 say 550bhp and 100bhp at each front wheel from the motors. Could really push the boat out and make the motors inboard (less unsprung weight) and replace the front brakes altogether (even less unsprung weight) - for full re-gen.
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