RE: Honda NSX - Detroit 2015
Discussion
Thankyou4calling said:
Was the NSX that highly rated when it was sold originally? How did its performance and sales figures compare to the competition at the time and why was it discontinued?
Are we looking back with a touch of the old rose tinted as often happens?
Basically "Was it all that"
First all aluminium production car, set the template for the modern day supercar as we know it today (usable, all weather super car), and heralded a golden age of sports cars (Type'R's) from Honda. It wasn't particularity fast compared to its rivals from Ferrari, Porsche and even Nissan (R32 GT-R) but the later variants, especially the Type-R, were more than capable of taking on their respective rivals. Are we looking back with a touch of the old rose tinted as often happens?
Basically "Was it all that"
Although my scepticism for the new NSX is based mostly on its conservative features, generally the current state of the automotive world has left me feeling a little disenfranchised. The introduction of turbo-charging, electric steering and heavier and heavier cars is really removing any excitement I once had for new cars. Compare the size, weight and design of the new NSX to the old one and you'd have be forgiven for thinking they were totally different, designed and engineering by two different companies with no common goal.
On the "was it all that" point - take a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLJ2lw0bCkk - he seems to think so.
On the new vs old, check this:
It's actually surprising how small the original is/was.
On the new vs old, check this:
It's actually surprising how small the original is/was.
swisstoni said:
Quite funny that, despite the reverence in which the original is held, the new car faces the same issue - who's going to drop £130k on a Honda?
I suppose it should be easier this time round.
Especially now they've got a successful F1 programme to show people how they can make the tech work in a competitive environment.I suppose it should be easier this time round.
Oh.
rb26 said:
Thankyou4calling said:
Was the NSX that highly rated when it was sold originally? How did its performance and sales figures compare to the competition at the time and why was it discontinued?
Are we looking back with a touch of the old rose tinted as often happens?
Basically "Was it all that"
First all aluminium production car, set the template for the modern day supercar as we know it today (usable, all weather super car), and heralded a golden age of sports cars (Type'R's) from Honda. It wasn't particularity fast compared to its rivals from Ferrari, Porsche and even Nissan (R32 GT-R) but the later variants, especially the Type-R, were more than capable of taking on their respective rivals. Are we looking back with a touch of the old rose tinted as often happens?
Basically "Was it all that"
Although my scepticism for the new NSX is based mostly on its conservative features, generally the current state of the automotive world has left me feeling a little disenfranchised. The introduction of turbo-charging, electric steering and heavier and heavier cars is really removing any excitement I once had for new cars. Compare the size, weight and design of the new NSX to the old one and you'd have be forgiven for thinking they were totally different, designed and engineering by two different companies with no common goal.
It proved that performance in an appealing package and reliability were not necessarily exclusive of each other. The NSX was not perfect, as I said in my original post it wasn't particular fast in the face of its competition (until the NSX-R was released) and by the middle of the naughties was getting very long in the tooth. It did introduce a lot of firsts for supercar's, and was obviously good enough for Gordon Murray to base the engineering principles of the McLaren F1 on the NSX.
Its performance figures though, not revolutionary, did bring about change into the supercar market in both what the consumer began to expect (a reliable but fast car) and influencing arguably the greatest supercar ever made, the McLaren F1.
For the record I'm not a Honda fan boy per say, but I lament the demise of the screaming v-tec systems like the b-16, F-20 and K-20 motors. The days of cheap performance cars with amazing, high revving engines is over I'm afraid.
Its performance figures though, not revolutionary, did bring about change into the supercar market in both what the consumer began to expect (a reliable but fast car) and influencing arguably the greatest supercar ever made, the McLaren F1.
For the record I'm not a Honda fan boy per say, but I lament the demise of the screaming v-tec systems like the b-16, F-20 and K-20 motors. The days of cheap performance cars with amazing, high revving engines is over I'm afraid.
Dagnut said:
The original is a brilliant car but don't get carried away..."set the template". ..."heralded" ....Honda fanboys always use such hyperbole when eulogising about their older cars...as if Honda reinvented the wheel.
There were no Honda fanboys back when the car was new (well, perhaps a few people who remembered the S600/S800 or were into bikes).The original NSX won minds, if not hearts, for the handling and earned many, many plaudits and awards. Go back and read LJKS' thoughts, or the Autocar handling tests, for example. You will see that the car was genuinely ground breaking. It was the car's engineering and the poise and composure that this provided that dropped jaws. That's exactly why Gordon Murray used the NSX as a benchmark. (It also won the GT2 class at Le Mans, 8th overall.)
The road car's straight-line performance numbers were great, but not stellar.
What is undeniable is that Honda never gave the car a significant upgrade (other than the Type R which was no more powerful, but which had a much more track-oriented suspension and a bit of weight saving). This new NSX will certainly address that, and I'm hoping that Honda's engineers are able to use the power hike and digital technology to make the new one as impressive in a straight line as in the corners.
Sadly I believe time has moved in faster than the Japanese manufacturers.
Honda caused Ferrari to reassess the 348 by launching something so polished as the NSX. Can anybody seriously say the new NSX will have them sweating over the 488? Me neither.
Not only that. Honda's dealer support for the new model has hardly moved on since the NSX arrived. You're still using a mediocre dealer network and sharing facilities with steady streams of risk averse octogenarians. Hardly the inspirational stuff of dreams.
Of course, you will have better straight line speed with the new NSX. You will now be able to at least see which way the executive saloons from BMW and Mercedes went. Though I don't expect you'll get such novelty against the current McLarens or Ferraris of this world.
Sadly, I don't see much of a market for a 'green' sports car built in the States by a company with a reputation for underperforming and unreliable hybrid technology, sold through crappy dealers, where the performance is similar to a fast saloon and the price twice as much as one.
Call me a cynic.
Honda caused Ferrari to reassess the 348 by launching something so polished as the NSX. Can anybody seriously say the new NSX will have them sweating over the 488? Me neither.
Not only that. Honda's dealer support for the new model has hardly moved on since the NSX arrived. You're still using a mediocre dealer network and sharing facilities with steady streams of risk averse octogenarians. Hardly the inspirational stuff of dreams.
Of course, you will have better straight line speed with the new NSX. You will now be able to at least see which way the executive saloons from BMW and Mercedes went. Though I don't expect you'll get such novelty against the current McLarens or Ferraris of this world.
Sadly, I don't see much of a market for a 'green' sports car built in the States by a company with a reputation for underperforming and unreliable hybrid technology, sold through crappy dealers, where the performance is similar to a fast saloon and the price twice as much as one.
Call me a cynic.
allergictocheese said:
Sadly I believe time has moved in faster than the Japanese manufacturers.
Honda caused Ferrari to reassess the 348 by launching something so polished as the NSX. Can anybody seriously say the new NSX will have them sweating over the 488? Me neither.
Not only that. Honda's dealer support for the new model has hardly moved on since the NSX arrived. You're still using a mediocre dealer network and sharing facilities with steady streams of risk averse octogenarians. Hardly the inspirational stuff of dreams.
Of course, you will have better straight line speed with the new NSX. You will now be able to at least see which way the executive saloons from BMW and Mercedes went. Though I don't expect you'll get such novelty against the current McLarens or Ferraris of this world.
Sadly, I don't see much of a market for a 'green' sports car built in the States by a company with a reputation for underperforming and unreliable hybrid technology, sold through crappy dealers, where the performance is similar to a fast saloon and the price twice as much as one.
Call me a cynic.
Agree with all of this bar the performance - I reckon it will be way quicker than a fast saloon ~3 seconds to 60 with 4WD, electric torque and 9 gears.Honda caused Ferrari to reassess the 348 by launching something so polished as the NSX. Can anybody seriously say the new NSX will have them sweating over the 488? Me neither.
Not only that. Honda's dealer support for the new model has hardly moved on since the NSX arrived. You're still using a mediocre dealer network and sharing facilities with steady streams of risk averse octogenarians. Hardly the inspirational stuff of dreams.
Of course, you will have better straight line speed with the new NSX. You will now be able to at least see which way the executive saloons from BMW and Mercedes went. Though I don't expect you'll get such novelty against the current McLarens or Ferraris of this world.
Sadly, I don't see much of a market for a 'green' sports car built in the States by a company with a reputation for underperforming and unreliable hybrid technology, sold through crappy dealers, where the performance is similar to a fast saloon and the price twice as much as one.
Call me a cynic.
rb26 said:
It proved that performance in an appealing package and reliability were not necessarily exclusive of each other. The NSX was not perfect, as I said in my original post it wasn't particular fast in the face of its competition (until the NSX-R was released) and by the middle of the naughties was getting very long in the tooth. It did introduce a lot of firsts for supercar's, and was obviously good enough for Gordon Murray to base the engineering principles of the McLaren F1 on the NSX.
Its performance figures though, not revolutionary, did bring about change into the supercar market in both what the consumer began to expect (a reliable but fast car) and influencing arguably the greatest supercar ever made, the McLaren F1.
For the record I'm not a Honda fan boy per say, but I lament the demise of the screaming v-tec systems like the b-16, F-20 and K-20 motors. The days of cheap performance cars with amazing, high revving engines is over I'm afraid.
The firsts were aluminium body and suspension. For me, when using the terms "template" and "heralded" you should be referring to changes that had the competitors going back to the drawing board...the reality is Ferrari didn't introduce aluminium until 10 years later. It's a brilliant car, an all item great, but I don't it had the impact everyone likes to imagine it did.Its performance figures though, not revolutionary, did bring about change into the supercar market in both what the consumer began to expect (a reliable but fast car) and influencing arguably the greatest supercar ever made, the McLaren F1.
For the record I'm not a Honda fan boy per say, but I lament the demise of the screaming v-tec systems like the b-16, F-20 and K-20 motors. The days of cheap performance cars with amazing, high revving engines is over I'm afraid.
EskimoArapaho said:
Dagnut said:
The original is a brilliant car but don't get carried away..."set the template". ..."heralded" ....Honda fanboys always use such hyperbole when eulogising about their older cars...as if Honda reinvented the wheel.
There were no Honda fanboys back when the car was new (well, perhaps a few people who remembered the S600/S800 or were into bikes).The original NSX won minds, if not hearts, for the handling and earned many, many plaudits and awards. Go back and read LJKS' thoughts, or the Autocar handling tests, for example. You will see that the car was genuinely ground breaking. It was the car's engineering and the poise and composure that this provided that dropped jaws. That's exactly why Gordon Murray used the NSX as a benchmark. (It also won the GT2 class at Le Mans, 8th overall.)
The road car's straight-line performance numbers were great, but not stellar.
What is undeniable is that Honda never gave the car a significant upgrade (other than the Type R which was no more powerful, but which had a much more track-oriented suspension and a bit of weight saving). This new NSX will certainly address that, and I'm hoping that Honda's engineers are able to use the power hike and digital technology to make the new one as impressive in a straight line as in the corners.
Dagnut - the 355 was an accelerated and direct response to the NSX showing the 348 the way home not only in terms of useability but dynamically as well - right between the eyes, as far as Ferrari was concerned.
As for Porsche, it made the 993 look dated almost before the 993 was launched. 993 was and is still a very capable car, but for the same money (if you didn't need back seats) the NSX lost virtually nothing to the Porsche and scored a few major wins.
Look not only at the Japanese market but also at US sales - in a market where badge is far less important than in Europe, the NSX sold comparatively well...
Dagnut said:
havoc said:
THIS.
Dagnut - the 355 was an accelerated and direct response to the NSX showing the 348 the way home not only in terms of useability but dynamically as well - right between the eyes, as far as Ferrari was concerned.
How can you qualify this statement?Dagnut - the 355 was an accelerated and direct response to the NSX showing the 348 the way home not only in terms of useability but dynamically as well - right between the eyes, as far as Ferrari was concerned.
First part...OK, did some checking...355 not an 'accelerated response' - looks like usual replacement cycle. But, certainly on US websites/reviews, that statement is a common theme, that the 355 addressed weaknesses in the 348 that the :shock: Japanese NSX highlighted so clearly - driveability, balance, handling (ignoring completely the better engineering, reliability and comfort/ride)
Luca di Montezemolo said:
“I had just bought a new 348,” he said in an interview with Automobile a decade after he took the helm at Ferrari, “and with the exception of its good looks I was utterly disappointed. This was clearly the worst product Ferrari had developed for some time.”
Although in the interests of balance it clearly appears that 348s were built rather 'inconsistently' - much like Cerberas and Mk1 Focus RS's, you could find a gem which is stunning to drive or a dog which frustrates.So maybe the NSX's main legacy is it forced Ferrari to actually consider how they build their cars?!? And it did so by being such a threat in Ferrari's home territory of driveability/fun/involvement, that they could no longer consider themselves masters of their own market...
Luca di Montezemolo said:
“I had just bought a new 348,” he said in an interview with Automobile a decade after he took the helm at Ferrari, “and with the exception of its good looks I was utterly disappointed. This was clearly the worst product Ferrari had developed for some time.”
So he took over, the 348 was a dog by his own admission, and they strived to make the 355 better.... how can this be attributed to the NSX? I've never seen a statement from anyone remotely involved with Ferrari in the early 90's that credits the NSX for anything yet its become forum folk lore because of a statement from Gordon Murray....who was working with McLaren and Honda...I'm not diminishing Murrays praise for the NSX, that's completely valid and his opinion carries more weight than most but it's biased purely based on the position he held.
You might have a case if you could correlate a decline in Ferrari sales after the arrival of the NSX but you can't, it's entirely plausible Ferrari made their cars better through new leadership,a focus on customer service, warranty claims and general reputation. They stuck with the same formula they were using for the V8's since the mid 70's.
I think a worried Ferrari response to the NSX would have been a new V6 Dino priced at the NSX.
“I had just bought a new 348,” he said in an interview with Automobile a decade after he took the helm at Ferrari, “and with the exception of its good looks I was utterly disappointed. This was clearly the worst product Ferrari had developed for some time.”
So he took over, the 348 was a dog by his own admission, and they strived to make the 355 better.... how can this be attributed to the NSX? I've never seen a statement from anyone remotely involved with Ferrari in the early 90's that credits the NSX for anything yet its become forum folk lore because of a statement from Gordon Murray....who was working with McLaren and Honda...I'm not diminishing Murrays praise for the NSX, that's completely valid and his opinion carries more weight than most but it's biased purely based on the position he held.
You might have a case if you could correlate a decline in Ferrari sales after the arrival of the NSX but you can't, it's entirely plausible Ferrari made their cars better through new leadership,a focus on customer service, warranty claims and general reputation. They stuck with the same formula they were using for the V8's since the mid 70's.
I think a worried Ferrari response to the NSX would have been a new V6 Dino priced at the NSX.
ewand said:
On the "was it all that" point - take a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLJ2lw0bCkk - he seems to think so.
On the new vs old, check this:
It's actually surprising how small the original is/was.
The new one looks a right mess compared to the older, more simple design - I appreciate things have moved on and it has more tech in it, but still.On the new vs old, check this:
It's actually surprising how small the original is/was.
Awful.
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