Most 'bang for your buck'?

[LasseV]

JagXJR said:

Is it?

There is one on Autotrader for £2k says 0-60 is 6.3 seconds. My N/A V8 would have kept up with that, never mind an R.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2013...

On my quarter mile site it says 1997 Toyota Supra Turbo 0-60 5.1 Standing quarter 13.6 http://myquartermile.com/qtrmile.php?make=Toyota

I did extensive homework before I bought the XJR otherwise would have had something faster.

That autotrader Supra is an MKIII version. I thought that we were talking about MKIV lol


In year 1993, Car and Driver did make performance tests for MKIV TT and the results was:
0-60 mph 4,6s
0-100 mph 11.1
1/4 mile 13.1 @109mph
70-0 braking test 160 ft
Skidpad 0.95g

That was USDM model (same as eurospec). Other mags did get little bit of worse performance numbers out of it, but they are still actually measured and not just some advertising numbers. Supras top speed is limited to 155mph, goes faster than that when de-limited. Even today it is quite impressive car. Of course, that big cat (XJR) is a very nice car too.

I say it again tho, i don't know how much Supra TT does cost today.

Edited by LasseV on Friday 16th January 18:05

Edited by LasseV on Friday 16th January 18:08

[MikeyMike]

JagXJR said:

You don't quote any prices to back that up, but I'm guessing more than £3K from what I have seen available on Autotrader.

The supercharged Jaguars are only (with a few rare exeptions) available in automatic, yet even so given the problem of getting a heavy automatic car off the line still equal the MR2 you quote as being faster (along with the M3 equivalent model if you can find one this cheap). Given that the supercharger is always on boost and the kickdown on these cars is slightly quicker than a manual change, I would expect the rolling acceleration therefore to be quicker still. These cars really are the bargain of the century.


"Jaguars’ third generation XJR, designated as X308 is one of the top 10 fastest 4 door mass production saloons ever built as of the end of 2006. That is pretty hard to believe, but the stats don’t lie and the third generation XJR will go from 0-60 in 5.2 secs, dashing to the end of the quarter mile in 13.6 secs. Top speed was limited to 155mph"
source http://www.jaguarsport.webspace.virginmedia.com/XJ...

They are not perfect however, the supercharger drinks like an alcoholic and servicing 8 cylinders instead of a four pot is going to cost more. A big automatic will not satisfy someone who prefers a more sporty, rally bred car to drive. And Jaguars image is an older persons carriage that is costly to run and unreliable (unfairly actually as I have seen many blown up engined Subarus, it's how a car is looked after at this age that determines their reliability). Get a good, well looked after one rather than a neglected one is vital for the health of your wallet, most Jaguars fortunately tend to have owners that look after their cars. I suspect this is not so much the case for Japanese cars.

So performance bargain they are, for everyone they are not. Depends what type of car you are after.

I didn't say it was faster in a straight line than the Jaguar, I suggested that the MR2 Turbo was the car that offered the most performance for the financial outlay, an assertion I stand by given that it accelerates just as quickly as the Jag and would leave the Jag behind on anything other than a dead straight piece of tarmac, as would an Impreza, Evo, RX-7, RX-8, 200SX etc. As you've stated yourself they are very different cars, the Jaguar is a powerful, luxurious mile muncher, the Japanese contingent accelerate just as hard whilst stopping and changing direction faster, they're more performance oriented which by my estimation is what the OP was asking for. That's before you consider the huge tuning potential of cars of this ilk.

As the current market value of an MR2 Turbo, I'd venture that Autotrader isn't the place to go for Japanese imports. Here are a handful from this site and the first page of the cars for sale section of IMOC, took me all of 15mins to find them;

3.25K in arguably the most sought after colour http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18272...

3K http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/t...

3.5K http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/t...

Very tidy example asking for 3.75k http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18311...

1.5k http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17363...

3K N/A to turbo engine swap http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18269...

2.3K http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17983...

2K http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18108...

2.35K http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18102...

I could go on. £3000 is the going rate for a decent example.

[JagXJR]

Since the auto box makes standing starts slower by about half a second that still does not impress me enough to buy one, even if I could buy one for the same money as an XJR. It would be interesting to see if rolling acceleration was any quicker than the R?

One car slightly faster on a standing start, does that really equate to

MikeyMike said:

For the most performance at the cheapest price you're looking at 90s Japanese performance cars.

.........................................

As I have mild arthritis in both knees I prefer an auto anyway, given this the choice is obvious for me. The Supra is a nice car tho

[JagXJR]

MikeyMike said:

I didn't say it was faster in a straight line than the Jaguar, I suggested that the MR2 Turbo was the car that offered the most performance for the financial outlay, an assertion I stand by given that it accelerates just as quickly as the Jag and would leave the Jag behind on anything other than a dead straight piece of tarmac, as would an Impreza, Evo, RX-7, RX-8, 200SX etc. As you've stated yourself they are very different cars, the Jaguar is a powerful, luxurious mile muncher, the Japanese contingent accelerate just as hard whilst stopping and changing direction faster, they're more performance oriented which by my estimation is what the OP was asking for. That's before you consider the huge tuning potential of cars of this ilk.

I could go on. £3000 is the going rate for a decent example.

I agree, straight line performance is not the full story. As the Jaguar is always on boost with instant kickdown into the best gear I would expect it to be quicker in rolling starts given the penalty a heavy automatic car has from a standing start. You can hardly dump the clutch to keep the revs up after all.

In 30k miles of driving the only car to have left mine behind was an Audi R8, no real surprise there! You would have to get past in the first place to leave anyone behind.

You would be surprised how agile the big cat is for its size, I was! And how quickly the Brembos stop the heavy beast! Keeping up with motorcycles on the twisty bits was never a big problem either given a clear road with no cars to holdup progress.

Since the post was about "Most 'bang for your buck'?" this seems to suggest performance rather than handling, which the laws of physics gives an advantage to the lighter cars admittedly.

There is also a huge tuning potential for the Jaguar in case you weren't aware.

In your original post you made a big thing out of straight line performance of the MR2 which is actually slower than the XJR once it gets going, as the standing quarter figures prove -

MikeyMike said:

For the most performance at the cheapest price you're looking at 90s Japanese performance cars.

Most of which are becoming harder to find in good nick and expensive as a result. Those with provenance such as the Honda NSX, Skyline GTR and Supra RZ are appreciating, Impreza prices are climbing too but oddly Mitsubishi Evo prices are still pretty low.

Perhaps the biggest bargain though is the MR2 Turbo(biased, Me?). 245bhp, 1250kg, 0-60 in 5.2sec, 160mph and 1/4 mile in <14secs. They bottomed out a few years ago and aren't showing signs of going up in value just yet. Lots of videos on Youtube comparing sports cars of the time and the MR2 always does well yet didn't garner the fan base that its rivals did. When you consider that its a mid-engine car, an engine that won the WRC and the JGTC I might add, and raced at Le Mans (albeit not very successfully) its pretty incredible that you can still pick up a good one for 3k. This video makes me laugh, the passenger in the 355 can't understand why they can't overhaul the humble MR2 (NSFW, some swearing) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uorkdRJqk5k

You've also got the likes of the Nissan 300ZX and Mitsubishi 3000GTO but good examples are becoming very hard to find.

As I stated it depends what you want from your car as to which one is best, however the statement "For the most performance at the cheapest price you're looking at 90s Japanese performance cars" is not completely accurate. So let me fix it for you -

MikeyMike said:

For the most handling performance at the cheapest price you're looking at 90s Japanese sports cars.

..................................

[Petrolhead95]

I bought my first and current car for £50. In the nine months I've been running it, it has needed one new headlight bulb.

[JagXJR]

Hmmm ............. (find something nice to say) ................ lovely colour!

[xRIEx]

Petrolhead95 said:

I bought my first and current car for £50. In the nine months I've been running it, it has needed one new headlight bulb.

£50 for a runner is an absolute steal, you could scrap it for double that!

[anonymous-user]

LasseV said:

I say it again tho, i don't know how much Supra TT does cost today.

For a TT6? About 10 grand for a tidy one! Generally speaking, I think the days of Japanese cars by default offering the most performance for your cash are long gone. Too much of a following and not enough examples to go around.

JagXJR said:

There is also a huge tuning potential for the Jaguar in case you weren't aware.

Is there though?

It seems once you've gone done the route of a larger pulley you're pretty much done on cheap, large HP gains. Yes, there are the twin screw conversions but I haven't seen prices for a kit this side of £5k+ which throws the bang for buck argument out the window.

I was going to get a XJR, until I started reading up on boosted Mercs, namely the 600s I mentioned earlier and the 55Ks and personally, I don't think anything comes close. Yes, they need more of an initial spend than a X308 XJR, but the V12 Bi Turbo makes figures that need a sit down and a stiff drink to comprehend (I'll repeat. 600BHP and 700lb-ft with nothing more than a Remap. That'll do High to mid 11s on the 1/4 mile and monster many supercars from a roll) and the Supercharged V8 that has the displacement and twin screw that I wish that the XJR had in the first place. 500BHP, just as much torque and dozens of off the shelf options to extract more power. Even the C32 AMG puts work in with its lowly V6 with stock figures to match the likes of a XJR, and an easy 50BHP+ left on the table unlocked with a pulley and map.

Depends on what you define bang for buck I suppose. My thinking is that lots of cars can make ~400bhp for say, sub £5,000, but 400bhp isn't that much in the grand scheme of things, especially if its got to go through an automatic transmission which most cars in this price range will. For a couple of grand more you're breaking upwards of 500BHP in stock form on the 55k/600 Mercs with still plenty of room to go once the modifications get flowing. That's the difference between 'Quick' and 'Fast' IMO.

[MikeyMike]

JagXJR said:

For crying out loud man, it's an executive barge! And the tuning industry behind it is minuscule compared to that behind the likes of the MR2, there's no comparison. The MR2 has it's own racing series for goodness sake, operated in the main by MR2 tuning companies. The 3SGTE in the MR2 has been tuned to over 800hp! There are several producing 600+ in the UK and running 9sec 1/4miles. From a 4cylinder turbo that was a development of a 150hp motor first put into production in the 80s that's pretty bloody impressive

Besides, part of the equation is price, and on average the MR2 is cheaper than the Jag. Your jag cost you 6.5k, you could get a leggy e39 M5 or Alpina B10 for that money. I'm sure there are cheaper XJRs but I gather they're the exception rather than the rule. I've already demonstrated the availability of MR2 Turbos at around and often significantly under 3k. So it's just as quick and it's cheaper. More performance per £ spent.

6k would see you in a 400hp MR2 http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16134...

[Hasbeen]

I am so glad I live in Oz not the UK.

With so many great cars, so cheap over there, I'd have trouble keeping the fleet down to a dozen or so, & it would cost a fortune for somewhere to keep them.

[JagXJR]

MikeyMike said:

For crying out loud man, it's an executive barge! And the tuning industry behind it is minuscule compared to that behind the likes of the MR2, there's no comparison.

Besides, part of the equation is price, and on average the MR2 is cheaper than the Jag. Your jag cost you 6.5k, you could get a leggy e39 M5 or Alpina B10 for that money. I'm sure there are cheaper XJRs but I gather they're the exception rather than the rule. I've already demonstrated the availability of MR2 Turbos at around and often significantly under 3k. So it's just as quick and it's cheaper. More performance per £ spent.

Look, you like your car, I get it. The MR2 is a nice car for what it is!

But this is bullst! - "For crying out loud man, it's an executive barge!" A normal XJ is, yes. The CATS and Brembo equipped, supercharged XJR is in a different league. Its a high performance saloon (as you'd know if you had ever driven one)!

"And the tuning industry behind it is minuscule compared to that behind the likes of the MR2, there's no comparison." - This is irrelevant. The topic is most 'bang for your buck' not which is the most tunable or which has more tuning companies catering for it.

What I paid for my low mileage, full Jaguar Service History car with a replacement engine only just run in, cost more than the average XJR. There is one on Autotrader at the moment for £2750 as I type. And I have already shown that the standing start figures that favour the light, manual MR2 are identical. A heavy automatic car is much harder to get off the line, yet it keeps up with the MR2. From a rolling start without the disadvantage of getting the car moving it would be quicker. Plus a higher top speed.

So this is bullst - "So it's just as quick and it's cheaper"

Yes it will handle better due to being lighter. But the Jaguar is quicker in a straight line has a higher top speed, is quieter, more comfortable, can carry 5 people, better equipped ................. do I need to go on?

so this is also bullst!

MikeyMike said:

For the most performance at the cheapest price you're looking at 90s Japanese performance cars.

The XJR is a different type of car to the MR2 and better in many ways. I am not saying it is the best car however, that is too broad a statement. The MR2 has its pluses too.

Perhaps in the interests of unbiased posts we can say, if you want the most 'bang for your buck' performance saloon (which is what the OP mentioned he had with the ZR), take a look at the XJR. There are also other worthy cars, BMW M3 & M5 and the V8 Mercs already mentioned but when I looked at these they were more expensive.

If you want the most 'bang for your buck 2 seater sports car, take a look at the MR2.

And to avoid any criticism of bias here, I replaced the XJR with a Subaru!

[JagXJR]

279 said:

Is there though?

It seems once you've gone done the route of a larger pulley you're pretty much done on cheap, large HP gains. Yes, there are the twin screw conversions but I haven't seen prices for a kit this side of £5k+ which throws the bang for buck argument out the window.

I was going to get a XJR, until I started reading up on boosted Mercs, namely the 600s I mentioned earlier and the 55Ks and personally, I don't think anything comes close. Yes, they need more of an initial spend than a X308 XJR, but the V12 Bi Turbo makes figures that need a sit down and a stiff drink to comprehend (I'll repeat. 600BHP and 700lb-ft with nothing more than a Remap. That'll do High to mid 11s on the 1/4 mile and monster many supercars from a roll) and the Supercharged V8 that has the displacement and twin screw that I wish that the XJR had in the first place. 500BHP, just as much torque and dozens of off the shelf options to extract more power. Even the C32 AMG puts work in with its lowly V6 with stock figures to match the likes of a XJR, and an easy 50BHP+ left on the table unlocked with a pulley and map.

......................

I had a look on Autotrader and could not find any South of 10 grand, perhaps some examples may help?

For that kind of money you could have a twin screw XJR putting out nearly 600 HP and still have room to properly upgrade the brakes to cope.

So most 'bang for your buck' still favours the Jaguar although I am still open to other suggestions?

It is a very interesting question OP, one that I'm sure a few people will be interested in!

[J4CKO]

Ecosseven said:

In terms of brand new cars I think the Focus ST is a good deal. Forget the list prices and look at the price of the car through internet brokers. A 247bhp Focus ST1 can be bought for £17.3k.

Where can you get them for that ?

[strangehighways]

With a £5k budget, you'd find it hard to beat a Mercedes C32 AMG. They are available for 4k upwards now and Autocar tested one at 0 - 100 mph in 10.5 seconds I think, quicker than an M3 of the time.

[JagXJR]

Where, when I looked I couldn't find one?

2002 Mercedes-Benz C32 AMG 0-60 5.100 Standing quarter 13.600 as per http://myquartermile.com/qtrmile.php?make=Mercedes... Identical to a 4 litre XJR which can be picked up from £2-3K.

[MikeyMike]

JagXJR said:

MikeyMike said:

For crying out loud man, it's an executive barge! And the tuning industry behind it is minuscule compared to that behind the likes of the MR2, there's no comparison.

Besides, part of the equation is price, and on average the MR2 is cheaper than the Jag. Your jag cost you 6.5k, you could get a leggy e39 M5 or Alpina B10 for that money. I'm sure there are cheaper XJRs but I gather they're the exception rather than the rule. I've already demonstrated the availability of MR2 Turbos at around and often significantly under 3k. So it's just as quick and it's cheaper. More performance per £ spent.

Look, you like your car, I get it. The MR2 is a nice car for what it is!

But this is bullst! - "For crying out loud man, it's an executive barge!" A normal XJ is, yes. The CATS and Brembo equipped, supercharged XJR is in a different league. Its a high performance saloon (as you'd know if you had ever driven one)!

"And the tuning industry behind it is minuscule compared to that behind the likes of the MR2, there's no comparison." - This is irrelevant. The topic is most 'bang for your buck' not which is the most tunable or which has more tuning companies catering for it. - This is relevant as it was a response to this; "There is also a huge tuning potential for the Jaguar in case you weren't aware."


What I paid for my low mileage, full Jaguar Service History car with a replacement engine only just run in, cost more than the average XJR. There is one on Autotrader at the moment for £2750 as I type. And I have already shown that the standing start figures that favour the light, manual MR2 are identical. A heavy automatic car is much harder to get off the line, yet it keeps up with the MR2. From a rolling start without the disadvantage of getting the car moving it would be quicker. Plus a higher top speed. You keep saying this but without in-gear acceleration figures available you're merely stating opinion as fact. For what it's worth 1/4 mile times for the MR2 vary from as low as 13.2 up to 13.8 hence my use of <14sec.


So this is bullst - "So it's just as quick and it's cheaper"

Yes it will handle better due to being lighter. But the Jaguar is quicker in a straight line has a higher top speed, is quieter, more comfortable, can carry 5 people, better equipped ................. do I need to go on? A derestricted XJR has a higher top speed by 10mph granted, but if you want to talk about derestricted examples then I could use an MR2 without the factory boost pressure restriction in 1st,2nd and 3rd gears. That would be an extra 3 psi, considering a good rule of thumb is that 1psi of boost pressure is worth 10hp thats pretty significant and would scrub a good chunk off the 1/4mile time. Not sure why you're talking about equipment levels and number of seats. I don't want quiet refinement in my MR2, its actually set up for quite the opposite. I have an old 5 series for quiet, passenger carrying motoring

so this is also bullst!

MikeyMike said:

For the most performance at the cheapest price you're looking at 90s Japanese performance cars. We've already been over this, performance has more facets than straight line acceleration, Japanese performance cars of the 90s stop and change direction quicker than the Jag whilst having comparable accelerative urge. They're also cheaper. Looking through the classifieds on here and Autotrader theres 1 XJR for under 3k, one at 3k and one at 3.5, the vast majority are between 5 and 10k with an exceptionally low mileage example up for 20. Disregarding the 20k example as an anomaly you're looking at an average price for an XJR being around the 6k mark. The two <3k examples are clearly exceptions to the rule and not a realistic budget for a decent XJR

The XJR is a different type of car to the MR2 and better in many ways. I am not saying it is the best car however, that is too broad a statement. The MR2 has its pluses too.

Perhaps in the interests of unbiased posts we can say, if you want the most 'bang for your buck' performance saloon (which is what the OP mentioned he had with the ZR), take a look at the XJR. There are also other worthy cars, BMW M3 & M5 and the V8 Mercs already mentioned but when I looked at these they were more expensive.

If you want the most 'bang for your buck 2 seater sports car, take a look at the MR2.

And to avoid any criticism of bias here, I replaced the XJR with a Subaru!

Please see bold above. There's no need to descend into swearing. I'm not trying to assert that a standard MR2 Turbo is faster in a straight line than a supercharged XJR, they would seem to be very closely matched in that respect. What I am saying is that the MR2 is cheaper and therefore offers more performance per £ spent.

I fear we're at risk of spoiling the thread with this back and forth, which would be a shame, so I'll leave it here. Enjoy the Scooby

[JagXJR]

MikeyMike said:

Please see bold above. There's no need to descend into swearing. I'm not trying to assert that a standard MR2 Turbo is faster in a straight line than a supercharged XJR, they would seem to be very closely matched in that respect. What I am saying is that the MR2 is cheaper and therefore offers more performance per £ spent.

I fear we're at risk of spoiling the thread with this back and forth, which would be a shame, so I'll leave it here. Enjoy the Scooby

Sorry to offend you, calling an XJR an executive barge also wasn't called for and just shows your ignorance.

So now you are saying it is not faster, but it is cheaper? I think you are wrong on both counts personally.

http://www.supercarworld.com/cgi-bin/showgeneral.c...

http://www.supercarworld.com/cgi-bin/showgeneral.c...

What a shame I cannot find any 30-70 times for the MR2 but not surprising for an imported car, information on these is sometimes harder to come by.

As the Jaguar has 212 bhp/ton and the MR2 194 bhp/ton I'm pretty confident the XJR would outpace it in a straight line. Particularly as a supercharger is boosting at low revs rather than a turbo which has to spool up the boost.

Prices for the XJR start at £2k, nearly bought one off Autotrader for that but changed my mind and bought the Subaru instead. The 4WD swung it for me. So you can buy either for £2k upwards, that has to be a bargain for either car.

So sad that despite all the evidence I offered you cannot admit you were wrong, despite my meeting you half way so will have to agree to disagree I guess.

Enjoy the MR2, I'm sure that it a fine car for you!

Apologies for hijacking the thread somewhat, but when someone offers biased advice this has to be pointed out. Discussion is what forums are for after all.

[strangehighways]

JagXJR said:

Where, when I looked I couldn't find one?

2002 Mercedes-Benz C32 AMG 0-60 5.100 Standing quarter 13.600 as per http://myquartermile.com/qtrmile.php?make=Mercedes... Identical to a 4 litre XJR which can be picked up from £2-3K.

These are the figures from the Autocar test for the C32....

0-30mph: 1.9s
0-40mph: 2.7s
0-50mph: 3.5s
0-60mph: 4.5s
0-70mph: 5.9s
0-80mph: 7.3s
0-90mph: 9.0s
0-100mph: 10.8s
30-70mph: 3.9s
1/4 mile: 13.1@107mph
Kilometer: 23.3@142mph

I can't find any Autocar figures for the XJR (308) but I am sure that the 0 - 100mph was about 12.8.

Autotrader has a few C32 amgs for sale.

Edited by strangehighways on Saturday 17th January 22:54

[sebhaque]

My Rover 623 GSi cost me £290 and does (did) the 0-60 sprint in 8.5 seconds and has 155bhp. Doesn't compare to the £50 Corsa (seriously, I want to know where to get a decent-looking Corsa for £50) but it's still not a bad shout. Especially with cruise control, electric leather seats, a sunroof, heated mirrors, air con, 6CD changer etc

[Petrolhead95]

sebhaque said:

My Rover 623 GSi cost me £290 and does (did) the 0-60 sprint in 8.5 seconds and has 155bhp. Doesn't compare to the £50 Corsa (seriously, I want to know where to get a decent-looking Corsa for £50) but it's still not a bad shout. Especially with cruise control, electric leather seats, a sunroof, heated mirrors, air con, 6CD changer etc

It was rough when I bought it. Interior was tatty from having dogs in it, exterior needed cleaning up with some minor detailing. Mechanically it needed a new head gasket and timing chain, both of which I had a spare of and I can fix that myself so it cost basically nothing. Vauxhall gave her a massive repair bill and I guess she just couldn't be arsed so I offered her £50 and here I am.

It was a bit of a risk, but it has paid off. People laugh at me for running a 1.2 Corsa, but I paid nothing for it and still pay nothing for it apart from insurance. Who's the sucker, eh?