RE: Peugeot 306 Rallye: PH Carpool

[Baryonyx]

Limpet said:

iloveboost said:

If I had a car FWD go sideways off throttle, or coming off throttle, I'd want to sell it! How do you not get scared when a car goes sideways? Have you driven on track a lot?

This only happens when you're pushing on. It doesn't occur when pootling about locally.

Also you can feather the throttle rather than lift which gets the tail moving about but without a full on slide. It sounds scary but it's actually wonderfully intuitive, with the whole attitude of the car responding as much to throttle as steering wheel.

I am not a brilliant driver, I don't race, but I was able to enjoy this for several years without any road departures, or even major brown trouser moments.

Indeed, I previously had a 106 Rallye, what a beauty it was. It was great fun to bomb around in. The throttle is central to the cornering experience, something which would probably catch a lot of drivers out these days who are so used to understeer and PAS trumping everything. If you didn't use a balanced throttle going into a sharp bend in the Rallye it'd feel like turning a boat. But feed the throttle in and crucially, expedite the opening for the apex of the turn and it would grip and fire out of corners beautifully. Similarly, the tendency to oversteer could be made to work for you, as a gentle lift to a trailed throttle could bring the back end around mid corner - generally though, they handle that well and have enough bite that you could drive them quickly by the nose rather than the tail on the road and really let the back end into play on track if it pleased you.

It only ever caught me out once, when I set off from work on a cold morning after a nightshift. I entered a small, heavily cambered roundabout too quickly and trimmed the throttle under turning action, leading to a big swing from the back end. Luckily, I had a lot of a steering on and not a great deal of speed and prodding the throttle open again steering me straight and to my exit. Luckily, there was only a Transit Van around to see my display!

[wooooody]

iloveboost said:

wooooody said:

Found the Rallye I sold 9 years ago parked round the corner from the GF's flat recently, still a great looking car.

Have to confess, only lost the rear end in mine twice in 20k miles; once when I'd Eagle F1s from and old P6000s rear (quickly resolved) and once when I didn't dial in throttle on the way out of a roundabout going to work when I normally would. It did go nicely sideways a lot though. Rated it as a better real world B road tool than the Elise I replaced it with due to the compliance, flexible engine & wet handling.

If I had a car FWD go sideways off throttle, or coming off throttle, I'd want to sell it! How do you not get scared when a car goes sideways? Have you driven on track a lot?

Really? I'd hate a FWD car that didn't move around when coming off the throttle & some sort of steering input was involved.

I learnt by scandi flicking classic minis on the local roundabouts when I was 17 and had no fear, but the 306 just oversteers so naturally (for me anyway) rolling off the throttle. Not been on track loads, but when I'd a friend who's monied to the point of being out of touch with ordinary cars, on the tarmac rally roads of my local club in the 1600 306xs (have had 5 306's) , he asked if it was RWD. Thats from a man who's fleet included a 7 SLR & Diablo SV.

On a connected point, the 306 I had aged 18, as 18 year old guys do, I wanted lowered. The garage were unsure about the beam, so lowered the front until I could get it over to Eccosse. It was the most sideways car I've ever driven and a lot of fun.. until I rolled it on a perfectly straight road.

Edited by wooooody on Tuesday 20th January 15:15

[irish boy]

Superb cars. I had a 106 1.3 rallye, 1.6 rallye and then a 306 rallye. Enjoyed them all, great to drive and I never had a reliability issue with any of them.
Progressed up to an e92 m3 last year but have never been able to get hot hatches out of my system so back in a mini gp2 now and happy.

If there's any time warp low mile rallye's left they're one to watch commanding big prices in years to come.

[Sampaio]

wooooody said:

until I rolled it on a perfectly straight road.

Saw that coming while reading the rest of your comment...

[chevronb37]

Dave^ said:

How do these (and the GTI6/XSI) compare to the almost Holy Grail of the EP3?

I'm assuming steering feel will be better?

Having owned both, I'd take a Rallye any day - irrespective of value.

The EP3 is much better built and it does have 'VTEC, yo' but the Peugeot engine is so tractable, torquey and sounds even better. Where the EP3 is stiff-limped and aloof, the Rallye is limber and playful. The Rallye always feels like it's your friend, on your side and ready to get stuck in. The EP3 is great but I never felt any emotional connection: very capable but ultimately a bit clinical. I doubt we'll ever sell our Ralye now - it's just part of the family.

[Sampaio]

chevronb37 said:

Having owned both, I'd take a Rallye any day - irrespective of value.

The EP3 is much better built and it does have 'VTEC, yo' but the Peugeot engine is so tractable, torquey and sounds even better. Where the EP3 is stiff-limped and aloof, the Rallye is limber and playful. The Rallye always feels like it's your friend, on your side and ready to get stuck in. The EP3 is great but I never felt any emotional connection: very capable but ultimately a bit clinical. I doubt we'll ever sell our Ralye now - it's just part of the family.

So ... The EP3 is a cat and the 306 a dog?

[PistonBroker]

Limpet said:

This only happens when you're pushing on. It doesn't occur when pootling about locally.

Also you can feather the throttle rather than lift which gets the tail moving about but without a full on slide. It sounds scary but it's actually wonderfully intuitive, with the whole attitude of the car responding as much to throttle as steering wheel.

I am not a brilliant driver, I don't race, but I was able to enjoy this for several years without any road departures, or even major brown trouser moments.

I seem to recall it being the quickest way round roundabouts in the 205 Roland Garros I had as my first car. Great stuff - much better than my Mum's Corsa that I'd driven up until then as that used to just wash out.

Had a 306 DT for a couple of weeks before selling on as I couldn't resist doubling my money. That was fun so I'd love to try a Rallye.

[iloveboost]

wooooody said:

Really? I'd hate a FWD car that didn't move around when coming off the throttle & some sort of steering input was involved.

I learnt by scandi flicking classic minis on the local roundabouts when I was 17 and had no fear, but the 306 just oversteers so naturally (for me anyway) rolling off the throttle. Not been on track loads, but when I'd a friend who's monied to the point of being out of touch with ordinary cars, on the tarmac rally roads of my local club in the 1600 306xs (have had 5 306's) , he asked if it was RWD. Thats from a man who's fleet included a 7 SLR & Diablo SV.

On a connected point, the 306 I had aged 18, as 18 year old guys do, I wanted lowered. The garage were unsure about the beam, so lowered the front until I could get it over to Eccosse. It was the most sideways car I've ever driven and a lot of fun.. until I rolled it on a perfectly straight road.

Edited by wooooody on Tuesday 20th January 15:15

Really. It sounds like some people like FWD cars to slide at the rear a lot, but I don't know why.
On a track backing off the throttle and sliding the rear instead of the front is fine. On the road I think it's really dangerous.
A lot of hot hatches get good reviews, but none of them seem to slide just by lifting off the throttle.

[Baz Tench]

iloveboost said:

Really. It sounds like some people like FWD cars to slide at the rear a lot, but I don't know why.
On a track backing off the throttle and sliding the rear instead of the front is fine. On the road I think it's really dangerous.
A lot of hot hatches get good reviews, but none of them seem to slide just by lifting off the throttle.

Google 'lift off oversteer'. You will most probably see 80's/90's Peugeots mentioned a lot.

It was sometimes snappy, as in 205 GTis, but most of the time it was quite progressive and pleasing as in my 309GTi. I thought it was great how a fwd chassis could behave like a rwd one on occasion (my first car, a Datsun 120Y, was very underpowered, but was rwd and on skinny tyres, so I had a couple of educational 'moments' in it ).

[s m]

Baz Tench said:

Google 'lift off oversteer'. You will most probably see 80's/90's Peugeots mentioned a lot.

It was sometimes snappy, as in 205 GTis, but most of the time it was quite progressive and pleasing as in my 309GTi. I thought it was great how a fwd chassis could behave like a rwd one on occasion (my first car, a Datsun 120Y, was very underpowered, but was rwd and on skinny tyres, so I had a couple of educational 'moments' in it ).

Lift-off oversteer a party piece of the Mk2 Astra GTE 16v as well - like you say, adds a bit of fun factor when you're used to rwd cars

[Sampaio]

iloveboost said:

On the road I think it's really dangerous.

I can assure you it's much more controllable (thus safer) than what a full-on RWD power-slide would be! And that means people can learn how to control a slide on the road at pretty safe speeds

[Ahimoth]

Every time I see a 306 on the road I think it's a design that aged wonderfully.

[Dave^]

chevronb37 said:

Dave^ said:

How do these (and the GTI6/XSI) compare to the almost Holy Grail of the EP3?

I'm assuming steering feel will be better?

Having owned both, I'd take a Rallye any day - irrespective of value.

The EP3 is much better built and it does have 'VTEC, yo' but the Peugeot engine is so tractable, torquey and sounds even better. Where the EP3 is stiff-limped and aloof, the Rallye is limber and playful. The Rallye always feels like it's your friend, on your side and ready to get stuck in. The EP3 is great but I never felt any emotional connection: very capable but ultimately a bit clinical. I doubt we'll ever sell our Ralye now - it's just part of the family.

Ta, I've had an EP3 and and FN2, and would happily have either again, but always had a soft spot for the 106 and 306.

[Baryonyx]

Sampaio said:

So ... The EP3 is a cat and the 306 a dog?

They're very different cars. The EP3 may not be as sharp a handler or as fine-tuned in the feedback it gives, but it'll be far more reliable than a Rallye. Not to say the Peugeot's are inherently unreliable, but if you're after an easy everyday proposition I'd be tempted to take the EP3.

[chevronb37]

Dave^ said:

chevronb37 said:

Dave^ said:

How do these (and the GTI6/XSI) compare to the almost Holy Grail of the EP3?

I'm assuming steering feel will be better?

Having owned both, I'd take a Rallye any day - irrespective of value.

The EP3 is much better built and it does have 'VTEC, yo' but the Peugeot engine is so tractable, torquey and sounds even better. Where the EP3 is stiff-limped and aloof, the Rallye is limber and playful. The Rallye always feels like it's your friend, on your side and ready to get stuck in. The EP3 is great but I never felt any emotional connection: very capable but ultimately a bit clinical. I doubt we'll ever sell our Ralye now - it's just part of the family.

Ta, I've had an EP3 and and FN2, and would happily have either again, but always had a soft spot for the 106 and 306.

I enjoyed my EP3s but I wouldn't swap the Rallye for one. Ours (it was my daily driver for a couple of years and is now Mrs Chev's daily) has been somewhat expensive to run but I just love driving it so much. Sold my second EP3 and didn't look back; would be devastated if Mrs Chev decided to sell the Rallye though.

[LA167]

Old school Pugs = heaven!!!

Haven't had the Rallye myself, but it's on the list of cars to own and never get rid of! The only other on the list is another 205 1.9 GTI. Had the GTI-6, 309 GTI, 306 XSI, 205 1.9 GTI, wish I never sold the 306 and the 205, hence the wishlist!! Sensational drivers cars!

[wooooody]

iloveboost said:

Really. It sounds like some people like FWD cars to slide at the rear a lot, but I don't know why.
On a track backing off the throttle and sliding the rear instead of the front is fine. On the road I think it's really dangerous.
A lot of hot hatches get good reviews, but none of them seem to slide just by lifting off the throttle.

Are you fairly young? I'm early 30ies; back in the day pretty much every hot hatch would oversteer with lift-off oversteer. When magazines talk of how adjustable a car is with the throttle, this is what they're talking about. I've the GF's 2009 mini cooper in today, it really tightens the line when you lift off, but needs provoking to oversteer. My mk1 focus winter shed is a great car to drive, but it's not as engaging as a 306 (and they're diluted next to a 106 or 205), however the focus is very neutral and feels much more sophisticated at the rear end (which it is).

Edited by wooooody on Wednesday 21st January 10:52

[iloveboost]

wooooody said:

Are you fairly young? I'm early 30ies; back in the day pretty much every hot hatch would oversteer with lift-off oversteer. When magazines talk of how adjustable a car is with the throttle, this is what they're talking about. I've the GF's 2009 mini cooper in today, it really tightens the line when you lift off, but needs provoking to oversteer. My mk1 focus winter shed is a great car to drive, but it's not as engaging as a 306 (and they're diluted next to a 106 or 205), however the focus is very neutral and feels much more sophisticated at the rear end (which it is).

Edited by wooooody on Wednesday 21st January 10:52

I'm about 30, and I've been driving for about ten years. I've never driven a car that slides just by lifting off the throttle. I've briefly driven one FWD car that slightly reduced rear end grip when you lifted, not just slightly added front end grip.

[PhillipM]

You've missed out.

[matt_knowles]

Had a 205 gti and a 306 rallye, and both were epic cars.

Looking back at my pics, the Rallye truly is a good looking car and has aged well. I echo the comments on the lively rear end, but once mastered it was an utter joy to exploit when moving some. Only have spun it once and that was at a wet Oulton Park, and wasn't even in semi attack mode at the time.

Would love to know if mine still lives (T677OAG)

Edited by matt_knowles on Wednesday 21st January 18:28