Tesla P85D vs Dodge Hellcat
Discussion
The Tesla model S will have been on sale for 3 years this year, and well known about in the industry years before that. Despite its high price point, it's been a roaring and highly profitable sales success for Tesla.
The big boys have had plenty of opportunity to develop and cash in on this market, yet none if them have produced, or are even talking about producing anything remotely comparable. Why? Do they not like making money and improving their brand image?
A sensible manufacturer should bite the bullit and make their ev compatible with the Tesla superchargers, except on a pay as you charge basis.
The big boys have had plenty of opportunity to develop and cash in on this market, yet none if them have produced, or are even talking about producing anything remotely comparable. Why? Do they not like making money and improving their brand image?
A sensible manufacturer should bite the bullit and make their ev compatible with the Tesla superchargers, except on a pay as you charge basis.
MrBarry123 said:
Yep, I'm aware of them opening up their patents and I disagree with nothing you have said.
Tesla will however end up a niche offering when the big boys decide to begin playing properly.
Perhaps more than niche though. They have a couple of years head start over an industry that is mostly not even trying yet and would need a few years to spool up once they do.Tesla will however end up a niche offering when the big boys decide to begin playing properly.
Meanwhile Tesla get free reign on the early EV incentives which will surely dry up as soon as the others join en mass.
The Model3 arriving in a couple of years is intended to be lower cost / higher volume. They have heaps of cash & good momentum. The advertised plan of getting to 0.5M within a few years certainly looks plausible at this point.
Big guys like GM, Ford, Toyota sell 2 - 3M units in the USA pa.
Still small by comparison to those Goliaths but with a lux sedan, SUV crossover, mass market $35k sedan, 500k unit sales I think they could claim to be more than niche. Not saying it will happen, but I wouldn't bet against them getting to 1M units within a decade.
Lotus Cars sells a few thousand, that's niche.
dvs_dave said:
The Tesla model S will have been on sale for 3 years this year, and well known about in the industry years before that. Despite its high price point, it's been a roaring and highly profitable sales success for Tesla.
The big boys have had plenty of opportunity to develop and cash in on this market, yet none if them have produced, or are even talking about producing anything remotely comparable. Why? Do they not like making money and improving their brand image?
A sensible manufacturer should bite the bullit and make their ev compatible with the Tesla superchargers, except on a pay as you charge basis.
Tesla isn't profitable yet. This is from a Bloomberg report last week:The big boys have had plenty of opportunity to develop and cash in on this market, yet none if them have produced, or are even talking about producing anything remotely comparable. Why? Do they not like making money and improving their brand image?
A sensible manufacturer should bite the bullit and make their ev compatible with the Tesla superchargers, except on a pay as you charge basis.
'Tesla Falls as CEO Elon Musk Cites Declining Sales in China
By Dana Hull and John Lippert
(Bloomberg) -- Tesla Motors Inc. tumbled the most in more than two months after Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk cited slowing sales in China amid charging concerns and said the electric-car maker won’t become profitable until 2020, when annual deliveries reach 500,000.'}
Why haven't the big car makers tried making something comparable?
1. They have. GM EV-1 (cue conspiracy talk), Toyota RAV4 EV
2. They don't want to shoulder the costs of developing the infrastructure and the oil companies aren't going to help!
3. Compared to the rates of advance in other areas of tech (such as oil exploration techniques & advances in internal combustion engines), progress in the energy density of batteries has been painfully slow for decades...
Regarding the tardiness of large car companies getting on the EV band-wagon, part of the reason must be that it is far from clear that EVs will be the winning alternative energy source.
Fuel cells vs EV is an imminent battle.
The oil companies aren't going to build the distribution networks necessary for EVs or compressed hydrogen so the car makers & governments are going to have to do it. I would guess this is what will dictate which technology wins.
In terms of an example of how not to do it, Renault-Nissan seems to be the best example. It has turned out to be nuts trying to build a low priced EV to appeal to the masses: the cars just aren't capable enough (range) for mass adoption. Tesla's strategy was far better: build an expensive car that is far more capable that will appeal to rich early-adopters. The characteristics of EV power delivery are also supremely well suited to a luxury car...
Fuel cells vs EV is an imminent battle.
The oil companies aren't going to build the distribution networks necessary for EVs or compressed hydrogen so the car makers & governments are going to have to do it. I would guess this is what will dictate which technology wins.
- Tesla said that it will allow other car makers acting in good faith to use its EV patents.
- Two weeks ago Toyota announced that it is opening its book of 5,700 fuel cell patents to its competitors until 2020 (the winner should be clear by then).
- Both are trying to build critical mass for their technology and both are gambling that they will be able to retain a lead over their competitors should their tech proliferate. Toyota's lead in FCVs is nowhere near as great as in hybrid tech.
- On 15 Jan the Japanese PM Shinzo Abe said he wanted every govt ministry and agency to run fuel cell cars as they become available. The govt has already ordered 1,500 Toyota Mirais.
In terms of an example of how not to do it, Renault-Nissan seems to be the best example. It has turned out to be nuts trying to build a low priced EV to appeal to the masses: the cars just aren't capable enough (range) for mass adoption. Tesla's strategy was far better: build an expensive car that is far more capable that will appeal to rich early-adopters. The characteristics of EV power delivery are also supremely well suited to a luxury car...
Tesla's profitability is probably a bit of a red herring at this point, they are still digesting the cost of developing all their tech plus the total car(s) from scratch plus massive ground-up infrastructure building and ongoing pouring money into building a service organisation etc
They're very buoyant, have a market cap bouncing between 25 - 35bn, vastly above anything the company could conceivably justify for many years. Lot of optimism driving that.
SpeedyDave said:
Tesla's profitability is probably a bit of a red herring at this point, they are still digesting the cost of developing all their tech plus the total car(s) from scratch plus massive ground-up infrastructure building and ongoing pouring money into building a service organisation etc
They're very buoyant, have a market cap bouncing between 25 - 35bn, vastly above anything the company could conceivably justify for many years. Lot of optimism driving that.
Agreed.They're very buoyant, have a market cap bouncing between 25 - 35bn, vastly above anything the company could conceivably justify for many years. Lot of optimism driving that.
I imagine a lot of the optimists/evangelists are having trouble with their faith with oil at $50/barrel. Picking my moment I know, but the market value has fallen pretty steadily since early September, down 33% so far.
Tesla will recover: there's no way oil will stay this cheap...
GM EV1, not much to say there, the push from govt evaporated & GM pulled them back after barely more than 1000 made. Tech wasn't really ready for the 'proper' car people want that competes with what they are used to.
Slow, poor range, basically the stuff that justified elec's poor image problem in the first place.
RAV4 EV isn't playing Tesla's game yet though is it. Regular car converted to electric format doesn't yield all the potential benefit of the ground up elec design (packaging efficiency etc) that is central to why Tesla are wowing everyone currently. Any company could do it, its just no one has seen a proper full elec modern design before the 'S' arrived.
MacD1 said:
What happens to all the lovely batteries once they're used?
Pretty much 100% recyclable, and can be sold at a premium. Old traction batteries tend to be repaired though, as its a few hundred quid rather than a few thousand to replace. I assume it will be the same with tesla batteries as they are made from individual cells, however as they come with an 8 year warranty its going to be a few years before a repair market is established.
Bibbs said:
No very useful when the nearest charging station is 2440km from my house.
Hellcat please.
Either you have posted this from a solar powered laptop from a raft in the middle of the pacificHellcat please.
OR
You are looking at the nearest supercharger and ignoring the electrical point 2440mm from your computer
K50 DEL said:
Is the biggest problems with EVs not their range and charging time... if I want to do a 600 mile road trip in a day (something I do fairly often) I don't want to have to stop halfway for 30 minutes / an hour / 12 hours to charge the car
It is indeed. Charging time on the Teslas is becoming less of a factor as they roll out their superchargers though. EVs a relatively new thing, so it's not going to fulfil 100% of the world's criteria 100% of the time. 600 miles is a breeze in many places already though, just takes a tiny bit of forward planning. The P85D is a wonderful, absurdly fast car. The sensation of acceleration is an odd one due to how power is delivered, and it isn't half fun despite lacking in audible theatre. I'm totally sold. We came home from the Tesla day in a current gen BMW M5 which instantly felt like an absolute dinosaur in comparison.
Appreciate they may not be for everyone, but I like them an awful lot.
The hellcat is magnificent too.
Edited by Stu R on Wednesday 21st January 06:20
McWigglebum4th said:
Either you have posted this from a solar powered laptop from a raft in the middle of the pacific
OR
You are looking at the nearest supercharger and ignoring the electrical point 2440mm from your computer
Okay, nearest "supercharger" point is 2440 miles. OR
You are looking at the nearest supercharger and ignoring the electrical point 2440mm from your computer
How do I get my car up the 5 flights of stairs into my office though, to plug it in?
K50 DEL said:
Is the biggest problems with EVs not their range and charging time... if I want to do a 600 mile road trip in a day (something I do fairly often) I don't want to have to stop halfway for 30 minutes / an hour / 12 hours to charge the car
I would suggest that a car, regardless of propulsion method is perhaps not the best option for you? A train or plane makes much more sense for those sort of distances in a day on a regular basis.Bibbs said:
Okay, nearest "supercharger" point is 2440 miles.
How do I get my car up the 5 flights of stairs into my office though, to plug it in?
There is some cutting edge technology which solves just that.How do I get my car up the 5 flights of stairs into my office though, to plug it in?
http://i.imgur.com/ZH7hXvJ.jpg
Bibbs said:
McWigglebum4th said:
Either you have posted this from a solar powered laptop from a raft in the middle of the pacific
OR
You are looking at the nearest supercharger and ignoring the electrical point 2440mm from your computer
Okay, nearest "supercharger" point is 2440 miles. OR
You are looking at the nearest supercharger and ignoring the electrical point 2440mm from your computer
How do I get my car up the 5 flights of stairs into my office though, to plug it in?
I have 2 kids and regularly need to transport wood etc from B&Q. A Ferrari is possibly not the car for me?
amusingduck said:
LOL, exactly. You can charge from a standard outlet anywhere. Much slower but if your daily use is less than the max range you just leave it plugged in overnight and you're good. Cheaper power at night anyway.If I owned one I'd install a high current outlet at home. Can add up to 60 - 70 miles of range per hour on charge.
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