Another cyclist dies in London
Discussion
BGarside said:
The standard of driving generally in the UK is a joke, and there's little or no enforcement of traffic law. British drivers take it for granted that they can break the law at will. Every day I see lots of drivers speeding, talking on mobiles, not indicating, tailgating, illegal parking, etc, etc. all around me while I am cycling to work.
I spend as much time watching my back as looking in front to try to anticipate people overtaking in stupid places, passing too close, etc.
Even where drivers are aware of cyclists many act as though we are invisible as they are fully conscious of the fact that they are highly unlikely to be caught for hitting a cyclist, let alone receive any significant prosecution.
As Britain becomes increasingly overpopulated and people become ever more selfish and aggressive cycling just becomes more dangerous and unpleasant every year.
Even in the smallish town where I live, most of the direct routes around town are essentially uncyclable thanks to heavy traffic, speeding drivers and roads which are dangerously narrowed by parked cars and so-called traffic calming measures. What used to be quiet roads to ride on have become sat nav shortcuts for those trying to avoid congestion elsewhere, leaving nowhere safe to ride.
These are bleak times for cycling in Britain and I can see a day when we are eventually forced off the roads altogether by heavy traffic and intolerant drivers.
Good, lets stop all that public funding of cycling improvements right now! Unappreciative bI spend as much time watching my back as looking in front to try to anticipate people overtaking in stupid places, passing too close, etc.
Even where drivers are aware of cyclists many act as though we are invisible as they are fully conscious of the fact that they are highly unlikely to be caught for hitting a cyclist, let alone receive any significant prosecution.
As Britain becomes increasingly overpopulated and people become ever more selfish and aggressive cycling just becomes more dangerous and unpleasant every year.
Even in the smallish town where I live, most of the direct routes around town are essentially uncyclable thanks to heavy traffic, speeding drivers and roads which are dangerously narrowed by parked cars and so-called traffic calming measures. What used to be quiet roads to ride on have become sat nav shortcuts for those trying to avoid congestion elsewhere, leaving nowhere safe to ride.
These are bleak times for cycling in Britain and I can see a day when we are eventually forced off the roads altogether by heavy traffic and intolerant drivers.
dcrostonian said:
Why would you use a Unicycle on the road?
Because some people believe it's their right to do so (and it is) but sadly they then don't always accept the risk of coming a cropper and blame other people when things go wrong. Facts are cycling in London is dangerous and I would put my energy I to dissuading my loved ones from doing it than suggesting that anything that isn't a bicycle be banned. It won't happen and people will carry on getting killed.yonex said:
NorfolkInClue1 said:
Post Checklist:
1. Facts not known but it's the big things fault every time
2. Everything should be changed for the cyclist ( try "road infrastructure" as we all use it)
3. Sly insult at most who are on here reading it
4. Wind up.
Yep, full house, well done you, that showed em!
Informative, constructive and full of facts and of course all aimed at finding a balanced helpful solution to the problem.
Yawn................ex.
Riding a bike, driving a car and occasionally a motorcycle allows me to see the good and bad of all. You?1. Facts not known but it's the big things fault every time
2. Everything should be changed for the cyclist ( try "road infrastructure" as we all use it)
3. Sly insult at most who are on here reading it
4. Wind up.
Yep, full house, well done you, that showed em!
Informative, constructive and full of facts and of course all aimed at finding a balanced helpful solution to the problem.
Yawn................ex.
I don't believe you have the ability to find the bad in yourself or fellow cyclists if it means that the slightest hint of fault could be laid.
You are on here in a flash to shout down anyone who dares to question the possible liability of anyone killed in one of these tragic accidents if they try to suggest the cyclist could have done better. It's very lazy to brush all drivers of, how do you put it, oh yes...big things.
I have posted previously about my own companies accidents with cyclists, 4 fatalities in one year, all investigated by the police, HSE and internally and all cleared the driver but that falls on deaf ears when the militants want to prove a point.
We even have training days set aside with an Olympic cyclists where drivers are put on bikes in traning areas to simulate traffic situations to understand issues surrounding visibility etc.
Guess what though yonex, it counts for nowt on here, no matter what the drivers say, it's the trucks fault......train the drivers....improve the lot for cyclists....blah blah.
Fact is that when moron or the inattentive meet a RIGID class 2 on the left then problems will follow.
So how about, God forbid, we ban cyclist from waiting on the left at lights, how about we have separate traffic lights for cyclists to obey, how about we enforce a registration and license system for those that ride within the congestion zone so we can track and ban the morons that jump lights and run on the pavements etc.
Sorry mate but there is so much more that the cyclists can do whilst we try to sort the issues with HGV's, just because you are unlicensed, untaxed and untraceable doesn't mean you shouldn't respect other road users.
Rant over, now bore off.....
rambo19 said:
Surely cyclists MUST start looking at themselves more closely when it comes to safety.
We don't seem to hear as many motorcyclists getting killed.
Sadly, IME, cyclists seem to be lunitics and take to many chances.
You're absolutely right! Motorcycles are the safest vehicles in the world!We don't seem to hear as many motorcyclists getting killed.
Sadly, IME, cyclists seem to be lunitics and take to many chances.
frisbee said:
You're absolutely right! Motorcycles are the safest vehicles in the world!
No not the safest but they aren't publishing the number of motorcyclists that have been killed.Part of this is speed and position in the the road but a major part is training.
Anyway, I've been commuting by motorbike for 20 years and I'm still here.
NorfolkInClue1 said:
Ride a bike, drive a car, drive a class 1 hgv and hold the ability to see the wood for the trees. Sadly this response and your response to MRMIKE2 where you again mention only drivers that need their awareness or "training" improved sum things up.
I don't believe you have the ability to find the bad in yourself or fellow cyclists if it means that the slightest hint of fault could be laid.
Well that would be your mistake. There are cyclists that have some self preservation and those that don't. I ride with clubs but mostly on my own, I cant be bothered with poor riding, it pisses me off as a rider and driver. BTW MR2MIKE is an anti cycling bigot.I don't believe you have the ability to find the bad in yourself or fellow cyclists if it means that the slightest hint of fault could be laid.
NorfolkInClue1 said:
You are on here in a flash to shout down anyone who dares to question the possible liability of anyone killed in one of these tragic accidents if they try to suggest the cyclist could have done better. It's very lazy to brush all drivers of, how do you put it, oh yes...big things.
Well in the main PH is seemingly populated by drivers who have no empathy for anyone else on the roads. I can distinguish between 'large' and 'small' things but they dont seem to be able to respect someone on a bicycle. It's not all, it's some, it takes just one driver to kill me, one driver in the roughly 7-9000 miles I ride each year, that's some stty odds.NorfolkInClue1 said:
I have posted previously about my own companies accidents with cyclists, 4 fatalities in one year, all investigated by the police, HSE and internally and all cleared the driver but that falls on deaf ears when the militants want to prove a point.
I'm not militant I just quite like being alive and spending time with my family. I don't see why cycling shoud be such a problem generally and experience in other countries has shown me that the UK does have a problem.NorfolkInClue1 said:
We even have training days set aside with an Olympic cyclists where drivers are put on bikes in traning areas to simulate traffic situations to understand issues surrounding visibility etc.
I am not questioning it.NorfolkInClue1 said:
Guess what though yonex, it counts for nowt on here, no matter what the drivers say, it's the trucks fault......train the drivers....improve the lot for cyclists....blah blah.
No. My issue is the lack of protection. If, like in Germany the onus was on the driver to prove he/she wasn't at fault maybe, just maybe some of these accidents would be avoided. NorfolkInClue1 said:
Fact is that when moron or the inattentive meet a RIGID class 2 on the left then problems will follow.
So why let them share the same space. You are agreeing with what I am proposing, better infrastructure.NorfolkInClue1 said:
So how about, God forbid, we ban cyclist from waiting on the left at lights, how about we have separate traffic lights for cyclists to obey, how about we enforce a registration and license system for those that ride within the congestion zone so we can track and ban the morons that jump lights and run on the pavements etc.
It's much, much, more simple...NorfolkInClue1 said:
Sorry mate but there is so much more that the cyclists can do whilst we try to sort the issues with HGV's, just because you are unlicensed, untaxed and untraceable doesn't mean you shouldn't respect other road users.
Rant over, now bore off.....
Bore off, get over yourself, you dont fRant over, now bore off.....
king own this discussion mateBack OT.....It's simple because it boils down to pecking order and the danger to each. I seem to be alone in recognizing that the very same squishy mattar riding a bicycle may also drive a car, truck, fly a plane, etc. It is absolutely the case that in every other life decision humans seek to protect, that is the basis of community. So why the f
k isn't it patently fking obvious that when any amount of metal meets any piece of flesh and bone the winner.......To combat this we should protect the less robust. That is how it works in business, bolster the weakest element to support the bigger picture. So. On this site, this f
king site full of motoring enthusiasts, why can't we agree that cyclists are both amongst us and they need protecting? Is it that much of an assault of peoples's fking egos that some random guy/girl on a bike is vulnerable and not a /bh?Speaking from my own experience I love driving, riding and cycling. It depresses me that motorcycles buzz me on the bike, it depresses me when a cyclist rides all over the road. Sometimes I wonder but I make allowances because there are f
king assholes in this world. These assholes are in cars, on bikes, in trucks, in buses on horses and on foot. To kill them all would take me many years and cause me much emotion, therefore I make allowances, every single day. It's called being human. As many again are no bother to anyone, most of us are 70/30 and acknowledge when we fk things up.Someone dying is an awful price to pay. As a driver I would suffer increased training and legislation. If I killed a cyclist I would expect to be held to account. To my mind cyclists need protecting in one way or another. I'll take the hit and be more careful, anyone saying otherwise I have to question why they have a licence?
Now tell me again why several tons of rolling stock shouldn't be the responsible party vs 90 kgs of person and bike? Who can inflict death, who needs to be considerate of the weaker party?
f
king rocket science, obviously.Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 29th May 23:08
yonex said:
NorfolkInClue1 said:
NorfolkInClue1 said:
No. My issue is the lack of protection. If, like in Germany the onus was on the driver to prove he/she wasn't at fault maybe, just maybe some of these accidents would be avoided.
NorfolkInClue1 said:
In that case hopefully Germany also puts the onus of proof on cyclists when they hit pedestrians (usually on pavements) as they have no protection)! Oh but hey the cyclists aren't necessarily insured so you may not get any compensation even if you are left crippled!
To combat this we should protect the less robust. That is how it works in business, bolster the weakest element to support the bigger picture.
Sorry, what business is this - the Labour party? Oh but they lost didn't they?!!
Tesco don't subsidise Aldi/Lidl, they have to look after themselves!
So. On this site, this fking site full of motoring enthusiasts, why can't we agree that cyclists are both amongst us and they need protecting? Is it that much of an assault of peoples's fking egos that some random guy/girl on a bike is vulnerable and not a /bh?
Sorry I don't think anyone had described people in this way, maybe your paranoia thinks that.............
Speaking from my own experience I love driving, riding and cycling. It depresses me that motorcycles buzz me on the bike, it depresses me when a cyclist rides all over the road. Sometimes I wonder but I make allowances because there are fking assholes in this world. These assholes are in cars, on bikes, in trucks, in buses on horses and on foot. To kill them all would take me many years and cause me much emotion, therefore I make allowances, every single day. It's called being human. As many again are no bother to anyone, most of us are 70/30 and acknowledge when we fk things up.
I worked in Victoria SW1 for a couple of years and commuted by train/motorcycle and TBH the cyclists were a F*****G nightmare - running red lights, riding on pavements - I was as scared as a pedestrian from the station to the office as I was on the motorbike (just missed being flattened by a skip lorry at Vauxhall when he was avoiding a cyclist who ran a red light) So don't give us all that goody-goody b******t.>
Someone dying is an awful price to pay.
Yes, that I agree with - nobody should have to face that.
As a driver I would suffer increased training and legislation. If I killed a cyclist I would expect to be held to account. To my mind cyclists need protecting in one way or another. I'll take the hit and be more careful, anyone saying otherwise I have to question why they have a licence?
Sort of - if the cyclist is out at night with no lights and runs a red light you would still feel dreadful but in what way might that be your fault? Some perspective is still required surely?
Now tell me again why several tons of rolling stock shouldn't be the responsible party vs 90 kgs of person and bike? Who can inflict death, who needs to be considerate of the weaker party?
Try walking in front of an express train at Slough that is going to Paddington - it can't stop FFS. Sometimes we need to take responsibility for our own destiny!
fking rocket science, obviously.
Exactly - as a pedestrian I avoid anything with wheels, as a cyclist I avoid anything at all, as a motorcyclist I avoid every other vehicle (my father told me to treat them all as pathological killers looking for a victim)) and as a motorist I keep well away from lorries (and further away from big ones) oh and cyclists now obviously!
Not rocket science FFS!
To combat this we should protect the less robust. That is how it works in business, bolster the weakest element to support the bigger picture.
Sorry, what business is this - the Labour party? Oh but they lost didn't they?!!
Tesco don't subsidise Aldi/Lidl, they have to look after themselves!
So. On this site, this f
king site full of motoring enthusiasts, why can't we agree that cyclists are both amongst us and they need protecting? Is it that much of an assault of peoples's fking egos that some random guy/girl on a bike is vulnerable and not a /bh?Sorry I don't think anyone had described people in this way, maybe your paranoia thinks that.............
Speaking from my own experience I love driving, riding and cycling. It depresses me that motorcycles buzz me on the bike, it depresses me when a cyclist rides all over the road. Sometimes I wonder but I make allowances because there are f
king assholes in this world. These assholes are in cars, on bikes, in trucks, in buses on horses and on foot. To kill them all would take me many years and cause me much emotion, therefore I make allowances, every single day. It's called being human. As many again are no bother to anyone, most of us are 70/30 and acknowledge when we fk things up.I worked in Victoria SW1 for a couple of years and commuted by train/motorcycle and TBH the cyclists were a F*****G nightmare - running red lights, riding on pavements - I was as scared as a pedestrian from the station to the office as I was on the motorbike (just missed being flattened by a skip lorry at Vauxhall when he was avoiding a cyclist who ran a red light) So don't give us all that goody-goody b******t.>
Someone dying is an awful price to pay.
Yes, that I agree with - nobody should have to face that.
As a driver I would suffer increased training and legislation. If I killed a cyclist I would expect to be held to account. To my mind cyclists need protecting in one way or another. I'll take the hit and be more careful, anyone saying otherwise I have to question why they have a licence?
Sort of - if the cyclist is out at night with no lights and runs a red light you would still feel dreadful but in what way might that be your fault? Some perspective is still required surely?
Now tell me again why several tons of rolling stock shouldn't be the responsible party vs 90 kgs of person and bike? Who can inflict death, who needs to be considerate of the weaker party?
Try walking in front of an express train at Slough that is going to Paddington - it can't stop FFS. Sometimes we need to take responsibility for our own destiny!
f
king rocket science, obviously. Exactly - as a pedestrian I avoid anything with wheels, as a cyclist I avoid anything at all, as a motorcyclist I avoid every other vehicle (my father told me to treat them all as pathological killers looking for a victim)) and as a motorist I keep well away from lorries (and further away from big ones) oh and cyclists now obviously!
Not rocket science FFS!
Edited by yonex on Friday 29th May 23:08
Our trucks now have bike warning stickers, mirrors to spot bikes, voices shouting from speakers when turning to warn bikes and lots of lights to show intended direction changes - almost all are an absolute waste of time in London when you come across those cyclists 'on a mission' or the Boris brain-dead.
You can't keep track of all the cyclists and many spend all day rubbing against the side of the truck as they squeeze through gaps and are happy to cut around / in front of vehicles as they turn.I just don't get the levels of utter, utter stupidity I see.Not that it's any form of excuse, but at least if a car hits a bike and they declare "I didn't see you!!", they often didn't see them.They are small, narrow, nimble and easy to miss.How and why would you get anywhere near a moving 38 foot long, 32+ ton truck which is the size of a house, I have no idea.
Perhaps we should start mentioning the lives saved and injuries avoided to cyclists due to drivers actions? Impossible to prove, of course, but it would undoubtedly be hundreds and possibly thousands.
You can't keep track of all the cyclists and many spend all day rubbing against the side of the truck as they squeeze through gaps and are happy to cut around / in front of vehicles as they turn.I just don't get the levels of utter, utter stupidity I see.Not that it's any form of excuse, but at least if a car hits a bike and they declare "I didn't see you!!", they often didn't see them.They are small, narrow, nimble and easy to miss.How and why would you get anywhere near a moving 38 foot long, 32+ ton truck which is the size of a house, I have no idea.
Perhaps we should start mentioning the lives saved and injuries avoided to cyclists due to drivers actions? Impossible to prove, of course, but it would undoubtedly be hundreds and possibly thousands.
wormus said:
frisbee said:
You're absolutely right! Motorcycles are the safest vehicles in the world!
No not the safest but they aren't publishing the number of motorcyclists that have been killed.Part of this is speed and position in the the road but a major part is training.
Anyway, I've been commuting by motorbike for 20 years and I'm still here.
Just because you haven't died doesn't tell you anything about the relative risks of cycling and motorcycling.
Digby said:
Our trucks now have bike warning stickers, mirrors to spot bikes, voices shouting from speakers when turning to warn bikes and lots of lights to show intended direction changes - almost all are an absolute waste of time in London when you come across those cyclists 'on a mission' or the Boris brain-dead.
You can't keep track of all the cyclists and many spend all day rubbing against the side of the truck as they squeeze through gaps and are happy to cut around / in front of vehicles as they turn.I just don't get the levels of utter, utter stupidity I see.Not that it's any form of excuse, but at least if a car hits a bike and they declare "I didn't see you!!", they often didn't see them.They are small, narrow, nimble and easy to miss.How and why would you get anywhere near a moving 38 foot long, 32+ ton truck which is the size of a house, I have no idea.
Perhaps we should start mentioning the lives saved and injuries avoided to cyclists due to drivers actions? Impossible to prove, of course, but it would undoubtedly be hundreds and possibly thousands.
All we can do is mitigate the risks as much as possible. There will always be idiots but it seems the actions taken with extra mirrors, speakers can only be a good thingYou can't keep track of all the cyclists and many spend all day rubbing against the side of the truck as they squeeze through gaps and are happy to cut around / in front of vehicles as they turn.I just don't get the levels of utter, utter stupidity I see.Not that it's any form of excuse, but at least if a car hits a bike and they declare "I didn't see you!!", they often didn't see them.They are small, narrow, nimble and easy to miss.How and why would you get anywhere near a moving 38 foot long, 32+ ton truck which is the size of a house, I have no idea.
Perhaps we should start mentioning the lives saved and injuries avoided to cyclists due to drivers actions? Impossible to prove, of course, but it would undoubtedly be hundreds and possibly thousands.
Great discussion with many relevant points from both sides, but please tell me why a driver / rider of a car or bike gets blamed for knocking a cyclist off when they ride through red lights or have no regard or knowledge of the Highway Code or basic road craft.
It's bloody dangerous...cyclists please have some sense when your out there that's all I'am asking.
It's bloody dangerous...cyclists please have some sense when your out there that's all I'am asking.
Klippie said:
Great discussion with many relevant points from both sides, but please tell me why a driver / rider of a car or bike gets blamed for knocking a cyclist off when they ride through red lights or have no regard or knowledge of the Highway Code or basic road craft.
It's bloody dangerous...cyclists please have some sense when your out there that's all I'am asking.
If the drivers are obeying the Highway Code, why would it be dangerous out there? It's bloody dangerous...cyclists please have some sense when your out there that's all I'am asking.
Klippie said:
Great discussion with many relevant points from both sides, but please tell me why a driver / rider of a car or bike gets blamed for knocking a cyclist off when they ride through red lights or have no regard or knowledge of the Highway Code or basic road craft.
It's bloody dangerous...cyclists please have some sense when your out there that's all I'am asking.
Recently I've looked into this, (using STATS19 information) more cyclist are injured by vehicles jumping red lights and hitting them than them being hit buy a vehicle after the cyclist has jumped one. The whole red light argument, although very visual and a problem, regarding personal injury collisions (in my area at least) is a fallacyIt's bloody dangerous...cyclists please have some sense when your out there that's all I'am asking.
heebeegeetee said:
If the drivers are obeying the Highway Code, why would it be dangerous out there?
Drivers, cyclists, everyone 
And there's no point any of us having on our tombstone 'but I had right of way'
if we (or anyone else in the system) could have done something to avoid needing a tombstone
Devil2575 said:
What are you talking about? Riding a Motorcycle is by far the most dangerous form of transport. The reason that you aren't reading about motorcyclist deaths all the time is because it isn't newsworthy.
Just because you haven't died doesn't tell you anything about the relative risks of cycling and motorcycling.
More dangerous than riding a unicycle in rush hour? Like you, I only have my own opinion and would not confuse it with statements of fact, however I would bet I'm right.Just because you haven't died doesn't tell you anything about the relative risks of cycling and motorcycling.
I agree there are aspects of motorcycling which are dangerous but I can tell you from experience, it mostly comes from a combination of too much speed and a lack of protection. It's very easy on a motorbike to run out of talent or not see a very solid object until it's too late and when you do, it often ends badly. That's not to say motorbikes are inherently unsafe. On a motorbike you can also ride in the middle of the lane you are in, keep up with the flow of traffic and accelerate out of trouble if necessary. Your choices are limited on a bicycle, traffic can squeeze past due your road position and you are arguably less well protected. It would also help if cyclists remembered the highway code. I walk from Kings Cross to Oxford Circus every day and hardly anyone on a bicycle remembers basic road safety. Oh, they also cycle through red lights and ignore zebra crossings!
For all the above reasons I would ride a motorbike through London but never ride a bicycle.
I would add, my comments are based on my own general observations and are no reflection on the tragic circumstances in which these poor people lost their lives.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 30th May 10:18
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