Another cyclist dies in London
Discussion
heebeegeetee said:
If the drivers are obeying the Highway Code, why would it be dangerous out there?
This happened to me...I'am at the front of a T-junction the lights turn to green I start to move off and a cyclist rides through a red light in front of me please explain how I'am not obeying the Highway Code here, that cyclist put himself in danger of being seriously hurt by not obeying the Highway Code thankfully I was paying a good deal more attention to road than he was...if this was in the dark the outcome would probably be very different.The roads are there for everyone to use but the risk takers (read idiots) put people's lives on the line by their actions and they don't give a flying f
k about that.
Mr Gear said:
saaby93 said:
Drivers, cyclists, everyone 
And there's no point any of us having on our tombstone 'but I had right of way'
if we (or anyone else in the system) could have done something to avoid needing a tombstone
Like if everyone drove Range Rovers the world would be fine, right? And there's no point any of us having on our tombstone 'but I had right of way'
if we (or anyone else in the system) could have done something to avoid needing a tombstone
or motor bikes
unicycles
horses
on foot
buggies
small trucks
big trucks
buses
anything
Showing courtesy and due care for other road users and the world would be fine
Doesn't mean to say that one day something untoward won't happen, there's a risk in anything too.
Just need to minimise the risks to allow safe, expedient and convenient use of the roads
Klippie said:
heebeegeetee said:
If the drivers are obeying the Highway Code, why would it be dangerous out there?
This happened to me...I'am at the front of a T-junction the lights turn to green I start to move off and a cyclist rides through a red light in front of me please explain how I'am not obeying the Highway Code here, that cyclist put himself in danger of being seriously hurt by not obeying the Highway Code thankfully I was paying a good deal more attention to road than he was...if this was in the dark the outcome would probably be very different.Think! of all the paperwork if you hadnt
Everyone can make a mistake
As I said
heebeegeetee said:
If the drivers are obeying the Highway Code, why would it be dangerous out there?
Drivers, cyclists, everyone And there's no point any of us having on our tombstone 'but I had right of way'
if we (or anyone else in the system) could have done something to avoid needing a tombstone
Noclue said:
Difficult to quote you when you don't format properly.I'll end my discussion with you as you aren't interested in a solution. As long as it doesn't impact on you, your company, whatever...it's a case of all cyclists should just accept the fact they are in the car/bus environment...instead of making that environment safer for all of us.
In fact according to you complete nations have got it all wrong and you have it right, of course you have Sir. Oh, and watch out for that express train...
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 30th May 12:09
Driving a truck in Central London is scary, especially in rush hour due to the poor driving exhibited by all road users.
If people realised the concentration in driving a truck they would be amazed, it's made so much worse by other vehicles not taking into account the needs of big vehicles eg by closing gaps you've allowed to make turns etc, allowing for other vehicles poor driving and the immense determination of certain cars & vans to get in front of you at all costs.
At traffic lights if I have an option I'll use the second lane so I leave the inside lane free for cyclists and to avoid having to overtake them without a wider enough gap. The vast majority of times the inside lane will be taken by a car who will then push past the cyclists when the lights change to get in front of me. It's shocking to witness the standards of some drivers when overtaking cyclists.
The standard of cyclists has vastly improved in recent years and the vast majority ride defensively and take into account the risks of other vehicles especially HGVs.
There are still a number who put themselves in danger and do not realise their own mortality, this seems especially so for Boris Bike users and Brompton fold up bike owners.
I wish the Met Police would spend some time enforcing Zebra crossings, the amount of times I stop at Zebra Crossings to allow pedestrians cross, very few cyclists will slow down let alone stop when they've watched me stop and have no view of the crossing. I've seen so many near misses and quite a few actual collisions
If people realised the concentration in driving a truck they would be amazed, it's made so much worse by other vehicles not taking into account the needs of big vehicles eg by closing gaps you've allowed to make turns etc, allowing for other vehicles poor driving and the immense determination of certain cars & vans to get in front of you at all costs.
At traffic lights if I have an option I'll use the second lane so I leave the inside lane free for cyclists and to avoid having to overtake them without a wider enough gap. The vast majority of times the inside lane will be taken by a car who will then push past the cyclists when the lights change to get in front of me. It's shocking to witness the standards of some drivers when overtaking cyclists.
The standard of cyclists has vastly improved in recent years and the vast majority ride defensively and take into account the risks of other vehicles especially HGVs.
There are still a number who put themselves in danger and do not realise their own mortality, this seems especially so for Boris Bike users and Brompton fold up bike owners.
I wish the Met Police would spend some time enforcing Zebra crossings, the amount of times I stop at Zebra Crossings to allow pedestrians cross, very few cyclists will slow down let alone stop when they've watched me stop and have no view of the crossing. I've seen so many near misses and quite a few actual collisions
yonex said:
Someone dying is an awful price to pay. As a driver I would suffer increased training and legislation. If I killed a cyclist I would expect to be held to account.............
.....................Now tell me again why several tons of rolling stock shouldn't be the responsible party vs 90 kgs of person and bike? Who can inflict death, who needs to be considerate of the weaker party?
fking rocket science, obviously.
Pretty much sums up the pointlessness of any discussion with you, crass swearing aside......................Now tell me again why several tons of rolling stock shouldn't be the responsible party vs 90 kgs of person and bike? Who can inflict death, who needs to be considerate of the weaker party?
f
king rocket science, obviously.Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 29th May 23:08
Why shouldn't riders "suffer" increased training and legislation?
Why would the dead cyclists not be accountable? You immediately blame the driver?
Why shouldn't the 90kg of rider show some consideration to other road users?
If you want to know why I labelled you militant then just re read your response to my post, not one part of it acknowledges the need for further legislation, management or training of cyclists alongside the already ongoing and ever increasing training and legislation that HGV drivers carry out, both inhouse and from a legal perspective.
It's all up to others to make the sacrifices.
That's the attitude that keeps the combative posts coming, no balance and no sign of a willingness to come up with possible solutions from "your side"......
Aside from the core subject of people tragically losing there lives there is a constant comment on here regarding cyclists behaviour and that is the jumping of red lights. This shows, to me and obviously others, a most basic disregard for both other road users and of course the Highway Code, the same code that quickly gets quoted by cyclists who feel they are hard done by.
Until the basics are sorted then going on to teach enhanced road craft to both sets of road users is utterly pointless.
I will stick to my own view that until some kind of ability to manage cyclists in places such as central London or say the congestion zone is in place ( maybe plates? ANPR monitored?) and therefore give them accountability then the rest is pointless.
People will keep getting killed..........
Believe me, it never goes away from you either.
NorfolkInClue1 said:
Pretty much sums up the pointlessness of any discussion with you, crass swearing aside.
Why shouldn't riders "suffer" increased training and legislation?
Why would the dead cyclists not be accountable? You immediately blame the driver?
Why shouldn't the 90kg of rider show some consideration to other road users?
If you want to know why I labelled you militant then just re read your response to my post, not one part of it acknowledges the need for further legislation, management or training of cyclists alongside the already ongoing and ever increasing training and legislation that HGV drivers carry out, both inhouse and from a legal perspective.
It's all up to others to make the sacrifices.
That's the attitude that keeps the combative posts coming, no balance and no sign of a willingness to come up with possible solutions from "your side"......
Aside from the core subject of people tragically losing there lives there is a constant comment on here regarding cyclists behaviour and that is the jumping of red lights. This shows, to me and obviously others, a most basic disregard for both other road users and of course the Highway Code, the same code that quickly gets quoted by cyclists who feel they are hard done by.
Until the basics are sorted then going on to teach enhanced road craft to both sets of road users is utterly pointless.
I will stick to my own view that until some kind of ability to manage cyclists in places such as central London or say the congestion zone is in place ( maybe plates? ANPR monitored?) and therefore give them accountability then the rest is pointless.
People will keep getting killed..........
Believe me, it never goes away from you either.
And what should we do about the small percentage of pedestrians who wander out into the road without looking? Perhaps tattoo a number-plate onto everyone's foreheads just in case? That is the logical conclusion to your idiotic rant.Why shouldn't riders "suffer" increased training and legislation?
Why would the dead cyclists not be accountable? You immediately blame the driver?
Why shouldn't the 90kg of rider show some consideration to other road users?
If you want to know why I labelled you militant then just re read your response to my post, not one part of it acknowledges the need for further legislation, management or training of cyclists alongside the already ongoing and ever increasing training and legislation that HGV drivers carry out, both inhouse and from a legal perspective.
It's all up to others to make the sacrifices.
That's the attitude that keeps the combative posts coming, no balance and no sign of a willingness to come up with possible solutions from "your side"......
Aside from the core subject of people tragically losing there lives there is a constant comment on here regarding cyclists behaviour and that is the jumping of red lights. This shows, to me and obviously others, a most basic disregard for both other road users and of course the Highway Code, the same code that quickly gets quoted by cyclists who feel they are hard done by.
Until the basics are sorted then going on to teach enhanced road craft to both sets of road users is utterly pointless.
I will stick to my own view that until some kind of ability to manage cyclists in places such as central London or say the congestion zone is in place ( maybe plates? ANPR monitored?) and therefore give them accountability then the rest is pointless.
People will keep getting killed..........
Believe me, it never goes away from you either.
Pedestrians and cyclists are not in charge of killing machines. Drivers are. More people are killed each year by pen lids than by cyclists. That's why drivers need to be regulated and cyclists don't... for all the good it seems to do.
Klippie said:
This happened to me...I'am at the front of a T-junction the lights turn to green I start to move off and a cyclist rides through a red light in front of me please explain how I'am not obeying the Highway Code here, that cyclist put himself in danger of being seriously hurt by not obeying the Highway Code thankfully I was paying a good deal more attention to road than he was...if this was in the dark the outcome would probably be very different.
The roads are there for everyone to use but the risk takers (read idiots) put people's lives on the line by their actions and they don't give a flying fk about that.
The green light says you may go on if the way is clear. Was it clear? The roads are there for everyone to use but the risk takers (read idiots) put people's lives on the line by their actions and they don't give a flying f
k about that.In your example the cyclist puts himself in danger, but there is no evidence that cyclists are causing each other great danger.
You say it's dangerous out there. Who is causing the danger?
Mr Gear said:
And what should we do about the small percentage of pedestrians who wander out into the road without looking? Perhaps tattoo a number-plate onto everyone's foreheads just in case? That is the logical conclusion to your idiotic rant.
Pedestrians and cyclists are not in charge of killing machines. Drivers are. More people are killed each year by pen lids than by cyclists. That's why drivers need to be regulated and cyclists don't... for all the good it seems to do.
Pedestrians and cyclists are not in charge of killing machines. Drivers are. More people are killed each year by pen lids than by cyclists. That's why drivers need to be regulated and cyclists don't... for all the good it seems to do.
We dont 100% devolve our safety to someone else
If we're driving along ( or on a bike) we rely on pedestrians having some common sense and not walking out in front of us.
They know this too
However if they make a mistake and accidentally step out, that doesnt mean we shouldnt try to avoid them if we can, and most (all) of us would try. If they've walked out within our stopping distance, they've had it
In some ways we're all practicing collision avoidance but really it can be covered under due care for other road users.
Edited by saaby93 on Saturday 30th May 12:09
Nearly 300 drivers and passengers will have died in road accidents since this thread started yet PH remains obsessed with the cyclists...
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa... Page 3 Thread started mid Jan, now late May, 785 in a year is 65 a month hence approx 300 to date....
If 65 cyclists died each month this thread would go into meltdown. Why is there no huge thread highlighting all these deaths as they occur and apportioning blame about whose fault it was, who had right of way, who was breaking what laws and how much road tax each casualty paid?
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa... Page 3 Thread started mid Jan, now late May, 785 in a year is 65 a month hence approx 300 to date....
If 65 cyclists died each month this thread would go into meltdown. Why is there no huge thread highlighting all these deaths as they occur and apportioning blame about whose fault it was, who had right of way, who was breaking what laws and how much road tax each casualty paid?
Mr Gear said:
And what should we do about the small percentage of pedestrians who wander out into the road without looking? Perhaps tattoo a number-plate onto everyone's foreheads just in case? That is the logical conclusion to your idiotic rant.
Pedestrians and cyclists are not in charge of killing machines. Drivers are. More people are killed each year by pen lids than by cyclists. That's why drivers need to be regulated and cyclists don't... for all the good it seems to do.
The clue would be "road users"?Pedestrians and cyclists are not in charge of killing machines. Drivers are. More people are killed each year by pen lids than by cyclists. That's why drivers need to be regulated and cyclists don't... for all the good it seems to do.
Pedestrians already have the luxury of separation, if they wander out and get run over then more fool them.
Not sure how you got to pen lids and cyclists killing people as we seem to be discussing ways of preventing cyclists from BEING killed.
Hey ho, thanks for your input and insults though.
Have a nice day sweet cheeks and look out for those killer pens, best stick to keyboards for your randomness.........
Hmmm, wonder how many people have been killed by keyboards......
NorfolkInClue1 said:
The clue would be "road users"?
Pedestrians already have the luxury of separation, if they wander out and get run over then more fool them.
Not sure how you got to pen lids and cyclists killing people as we seem to be discussing ways of preventing cyclists from BEING killed.
Hey ho, thanks for your input and insults though.
Have a nice day sweet cheeks and look out for those killer pens, best stick to keyboards for your randomness.........
Hmmm, wonder how many people have been killed by keyboards......
Yeah more fool them, this people dying thing, stays with you...Pedestrians already have the luxury of separation, if they wander out and get run over then more fool them.
Not sure how you got to pen lids and cyclists killing people as we seem to be discussing ways of preventing cyclists from BEING killed.
Hey ho, thanks for your input and insults though.
Have a nice day sweet cheeks and look out for those killer pens, best stick to keyboards for your randomness.........
Hmmm, wonder how many people have been killed by keyboards......
You offer nothing, can't see why the weakest road users should be protected and aren't prepared to have a look at yourself as a driver, to see what you could do. You moan and whine about people who are trying to explain and have even suggested that the more forward thinking nations who have adopted a more positive attitude towards road use, have got it wrong. Wonderful. Basically you and people like you are a major part of the problem. Times have changed and even forum Luddites will concede eventually. They will be legislated to do so..
yonex said:
NorfolkInClue1 said:
The clue would be "road users"?
Pedestrians already have the luxury of separation, if they wander out and get run over then more fool them.
Not sure how you got to pen lids and cyclists killing people as we seem to be discussing ways of preventing cyclists from BEING killed.
Hey ho, thanks for your input and insults though.
Have a nice day sweet cheeks and look out for those killer pens, best stick to keyboards for your randomness.........
Hmmm, wonder how many people have been killed by keyboards......
Yeah more fool them, this people dying thing, stays with you...Pedestrians already have the luxury of separation, if they wander out and get run over then more fool them.
Not sure how you got to pen lids and cyclists killing people as we seem to be discussing ways of preventing cyclists from BEING killed.
Hey ho, thanks for your input and insults though.
Have a nice day sweet cheeks and look out for those killer pens, best stick to keyboards for your randomness.........
Hmmm, wonder how many people have been killed by keyboards......
You offer nothing, can't see why the weakest road users should be protected and aren't prepared to have a look at yourself as a driver, to see what you could do. You moan and whine about people who are trying to explain and have even suggested that the more forward thinking nations who have adopted a more positive attitude towards road use, have got it wrong. Wonderful. Basically you and people like you are a major part of the problem. Times have changed and even forum Luddites will concede eventually. They will be legislated to do so..
In order for this to work separation is not the answer integration is as well as better road planning, but with that comes some responsibility legislation & training for those commuting into Major Cities.
Sometimes Cyclists get it wrong & pay for it with their lives as do Car Drivers, Truck Drivers Motorcyclists & Pedestrians.
As I've said before more Motorcyclists pass away on Central Londons roads than Cyclists so should we separate them to? Of course not, so lets stop being so divisive accept that as human beings mistakes will be made by all Road Users.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b78_1432924447
Mistakes are made by all, the blame game helps no one.
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Saturday 30th May 21:19
Blame game? Well, one of the deaths this week has been caused by an unlicenced, uninsured and undoubtedly lethal truck driver: http://road.cc/content/news/152907-updated-arrest-...
So, that proves that licencing and insurance doesn't work if people aren't interested in obeying the law.
So, that proves that licencing and insurance doesn't work if people aren't interested in obeying the law.
Mr Gear said:
Blame game? Well, one of the deaths this week has been caused by an unlicenced, uninsured and undoubtedly lethal truck driver: http://road.cc/content/news/152907-updated-arrest-...
So, that proves that licencing and insurance doesn't work if people aren't interested in obeying the law.
Ridiculous assertion, there will always be exceptions. There will never be a system that works 100%. So, that proves that licencing and insurance doesn't work if people aren't interested in obeying the law.
Also unnecessary inaccuracy and generalisation, as if you read the link carefully it was not the truck driver (I have left out your dramatic descriptive term) who has been arrested but the van driver.
OP I admire your constant (sometimes futile) attempt at keeping this discussion on a level.
Mr Gear said:
Blame game? Well, one of the deaths this week has been caused by an unlicenced, uninsured and undoubtedly lethal truck driver: http://road.cc/content/news/152907-updated-arrest-...
So, that proves that licencing and insurance doesn't work if people aren't interested in obeying the law.
Really is this your case for not wanting training/legislation?So, that proves that licencing and insurance doesn't work if people aren't interested in obeying the law.
No rule will be 100% successful but if it's 95% effective then it's worth it isn't it?
Mr Gear said:
Blame game? Well, one of the deaths this week has been caused by an unlicenced, uninsured and undoubtedly lethal truck driver: http://road.cc/content/news/152907-updated-arrest-...
So, that proves that licencing and insurance doesn't work if people aren't interested in obeying the law.
So many things wrong there Mr Gear So, that proves that licencing and insurance doesn't work if people aren't interested in obeying the law.
It says the crash in Surrey was a truck a van and a car and it was the van driver that's been arrested for dangerous driving
Fair enough. However it doesnt explain many of the cyclist deaths in London.
Can you explain your point about licencing and insurance. Are you saying that if they were scrapped for vehicles, to bring in line with cycles and pedestrians, the number of deaths would decrease?
saaby93 said:
So many things wrong there Mr Gear
It says the crash in Surrey was a truck a van and a car and it was the van driver that's been arrested for dangerous driving
Fair enough. However it doesnt explain many of the cyclist deaths in London.
Can you explain your point about licencing and insurance. Are you saying that if they were scrapped for vehicles, to bring in line with cycles and pedestrians, the number of deaths would decrease?
Not at all. It's a counter-point for those who think licencing cyclists will stop fatalities. It says the crash in Surrey was a truck a van and a car and it was the van driver that's been arrested for dangerous driving
Fair enough. However it doesnt explain many of the cyclist deaths in London.
Can you explain your point about licencing and insurance. Are you saying that if they were scrapped for vehicles, to bring in line with cycles and pedestrians, the number of deaths would decrease?
First, it's usually not the cyclists fault, and secondly, licencing doesn't stop cretins getting behind the wheel is it's not enforced. It also doesn't stop mistakes happening either.
Mr Gear said:
Not at all. It's a counter-point for those who think licencing cyclists will stop fatalities.
First, it's usually not the cyclists fault, and secondly, licencing doesn't stop cretins getting behind the wheel is it's not enforced. It also doesn't stop mistakes happening either.
It's not usually the motorcyclist fault either but I don't think that we shouldn't be tested & insured.First, it's usually not the cyclists fault, and secondly, licencing doesn't stop cretins getting behind the wheel is it's not enforced. It also doesn't stop mistakes happening either.
Not having had proper training & licenses/insurance doesn't help cyclists either as I said these accidents are tragic usually because a human being has made an error be it through a cyclist/motorcyclist being in a bad position or a car/bus/truck driver loosing/not seeing them in their mirrors or vision (new car thick A Pillars don't help) nothing will stop fatalities as long as human beings are controlling Vehicles, but training & licensing will help reduce the numbers of accidents.
dacouch said:
The standard of cyclists has vastly improved in recent years and the vast majority ride defensively and take into account the risks of other vehicles especially HGVs.
There are still a number who put themselves in danger and do not realise their own mortality, this seems especially so for Boris Bike users and Brompton fold up bike owners.
this statement reinforces my own belief, that there's two kinds of bicycle users.. "Cyclists" and "Pedestrians on bikes". The former usually know what they are doing, the latter are the ones we need to watch out for.There are still a number who put themselves in danger and do not realise their own mortality, this seems especially so for Boris Bike users and Brompton fold up bike owners.
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