Another cyclist dies in London

[Hackney]

aclivity said:

Hackney said:

But I bet you've never seen a line of cars waiting at a red line when another car drives around them and continues through the red light?

I appreciate cars sneaking through on amber or red happens and is VERY VERY BAD but in terms of degrees of wrong, there's a difference between going through a just changed light and driving / cycling through long after everyone else has stopped.

I see that quite often, to be honest - not when I am on my bike, but in my car.

Every single day I have to go through a reduced width bit of road. Big white arrow (the "main route" is in MY direction. Most days I have to avoid cars deciding that I am only a bike, I will move for them. They get a bit of a surprise when I decide not to move over.

That's a different thing though, not a red light.

[okgo]

Hackney said:

But I bet you've never seen a line of cars waiting at a red line when another car drives around them and continues through the red light?

I appreciate cars sneaking through on amber or red happens and is VERY VERY BAD but in terms of degrees of wrong, there's a difference between going through a just changed light and driving / cycling through long after everyone else has stopped.

Only because it's impossible to do that as there wouldn't be enough space, otherwise I don't doubt some people would try it.

There are degrees of wrong, but the fact a cyclist jumps a red doesn't really matter (beyond a legal sense) they're far less likely to do any damage, and much more able to dodge hazards. I don't get why its latched upon as this massive issue, it doesn't really make much odds to anyone, I only bothered responding as loads of cars also jump reds, just like cyclists.

I don't tend to jump red lights as I like to at least come accross as law abiding, but I literally couldn't care less if someone else wants to. The same way I couldn't care less if someone is taking cocaine in a bar I'm in, or someone is going 100 on a motorway I'm going 70 on. People will break the law whoever they are, and whatever they're doing. Why anyone thinks that a whole 'group' of people are the same I do not know, its such a retarded mindset.

[aclivity]

Hackney said:

aclivity said:

Hackney said:

But I bet you've never seen a line of cars waiting at a red line when another car drives around them and continues through the red light?

I appreciate cars sneaking through on amber or red happens and is VERY VERY BAD but in terms of degrees of wrong, there's a difference between going through a just changed light and driving / cycling through long after everyone else has stopped.

I see that quite often, to be honest - not when I am on my bike, but in my car.

Every single day I have to go through a reduced width bit of road. Big white arrow (the "main route" is in MY direction. Most days I have to avoid cars deciding that I am only a bike, I will move for them. They get a bit of a surprise when I decide not to move over.

That's a different thing though, not a red light.

I know - that is why they are different paragraphs. If it had been the same, I would have done "I see it quite often, such as ...".

What I see regularly is on the roundabout near Wigan's Asda supermarket. There are lots of traffic lights, from memory there are 4 in a row before you get to the lights. What I see, often, is that a car wanting to turn left will go through 3 of them in the right hand land before hitting the last lights and wanting to turn left. If the light goes red, they still tend to go on.

Happier with this?

[walm]

SG167 said:

That and idiots jumping reds.

So how many cyclists have you seen hitting cars through RLJing?

[SG167]

walm said:

So how many cyclists have you seen hitting cars through RLJing?

3. 2 at the same junction. The cyclists will go through the red, not realise that the road filters from the right. cars come round, and there are issues.

[walm]

SG167 said:

walm said:

So how many cyclists have you seen hitting cars through RLJing?

3. 2 at the same junction. The cyclists will go through the red, not realise that the road filters from the right. cars come round, and there are issues.

Well I never. Genuinely not heard of many cyclists just driving straight into cars!

[SG167]

walm said:

Well I never. Genuinely not heard of many cyclists just driving straight into cars!

If you go through the red, you wont see the cars from the other lane until they are merging - and by then you are taking avoiding action. Go through at speed, and you are asking for trouble.

Either way, Cyclists go through an idiotic number of red lights.

Dont get me wrong, there are many cyclists who are very good - but some are appalling and are asking to be run over.

[J4CKO]

okgo said:

Hackney said:

But I bet you've never seen a line of cars waiting at a red line when another car drives around them and continues through the red light?

I appreciate cars sneaking through on amber or red happens and is VERY VERY BAD but in terms of degrees of wrong, there's a difference between going through a just changed light and driving / cycling through long after everyone else has stopped.

Only because it's impossible to do that as there wouldn't be enough space, otherwise I don't doubt some people would try it.

There are degrees of wrong, but the fact a cyclist jumps a red doesn't really matter (beyond a legal sense) they're far less likely to do any damage, and much more able to dodge hazards. I don't get why its latched upon as this massive issue, it doesn't really make much odds to anyone, I only bothered responding as loads of cars also jump reds, just like cyclists.

I don't tend to jump red lights as I like to at least come accross as law abiding, but I literally couldn't care less if someone else wants to. The same way I couldn't care less if someone is taking cocaine in a bar I'm in, or someone is going 100 on a motorway I'm going 70 on. People will break the law whoever they are, and whatever they're doing. Why anyone thinks that a whole 'group' of people are the same I do not know, its such a retarded mindset.

I think part of the reason RLJing is jumped on is partially a way for anti cyclists to have something to moan about and partly because they cant get away with it as easily or effectively as someone on a bike can, rather than any actual concern for law and order.

That said, I don't think it is a good idea as the occasional cheeky jib left round a deserted junction at 6am on a Sunday when there is nobody about becomes chancing it more and more, until it becomes the norm and waiting at lights is the exception rather than the rule. scale this out by thousands and its a lot of jumping across lights, lights that are installed to let traffic cross across the same piece of road in different directions, not everyone applies common sense or discretion, not everyone is that skilled or has good spatial awareness.

I like to imagine the consequences of my actions and explaining them, if lucky enough to be alive and explaining it to the nurse in casualty that I got hit by a car as I crossed on red doesn't sound good, so I dont do it.

[Mr Will]

Hackney said:

But I bet you've never seen a line of cars waiting at a red line when another car drives around them and continues through the red light?

I appreciate cars sneaking through on amber or red happens and is VERY VERY BAD but in terms of degrees of wrong, there's a difference between going through a just changed light and driving / cycling through long after everyone else has stopped.

In terms of degrees of wrong, there is also a big difference between doing it on 10kg of bike vs in 2 tonnes of car (or 40 tonnes of truck!). There is another big difference between doing it slowly and carefully at little more that walking pace and flying through at 40+ mph.

Yes, all are wrong but in my eyes these two factors are more important than how many seconds after the light change it occurs.

We just don't see it that way because it's "normal".

[yellowjack]

Ripped from the "knob" thread...

sim72 said:

Driving out of Coventry on the Kenilworth Road towards the A45. At the Memorial Park there's a traffic light controlled T-junction where Leamington Road comes in from the left. Just as the lights go green, a car pulls straight out of the road on the left in front of me and heads off in my direction. Their red light must've been red for at least five seconds.

A short way down the road, there's another light-controlled T-junction (a right turn). This is on red as well. The road becomes two lanes, one for straight on, one for turning right. Said car takes the right lane, drives straight through the red light and across the traffic and tootles off towards Earlsdon without a care in the world.

Not weaving around, speeding, driving too slowly or anything. Simply no comprehension of what red lights actually mean. So if you're in that area and see a bronze metallic Scorpio with a private plate that ends in 300Y, keep well clear.

...so not from anyone with a 'vested interest' in this particular thread, simply a PHer's observation from a car journey.

Add to that the frequent idiots I see making illegal 'U Turns' at traffic lights which specifically prohibit them, both locally and at several London locations, and I can honestly say that I see far more instances of drivers ignoring red traffic lights than I do cyclists. Yes, I know city-dwellers will have different experiences, but locally to me? Far higher risk of meeting a driver who risked running a red light than any cyclist. I'm also pretty confident that I'm right when say that, regardless of whether I'm walking, riding, or driving, I'd far rather risk colliding with a red light running cyclist that a driver in the same situation...

[heebeegeetee]

Possibly the most common occurrence I encounter at lights, as I am sure everyone else does, is for cars to ignore Amber stop lights and cross the junction inappropriately quickly, directly across oncoming traffic waiting to turn right and have priority.

I am repeatedly delayed by Amber stop light jumpers when I am waiting to turn right. In the past I changed my route home because of the frustration of not being able to turn right when I have priority. In contrast, I have never been delayed by a cyclist at traffic lights.

And let's put this cycle lane business to bed: everybody knows that UK cycle lanes are a near total waste of time and money. *Everybody* knows this, except numpties, as best exemplified by the thick knuckle dragging tt who naturally feels a 4x4 is appropriate for a city.

[anonymous-user]

SG167 said:

Dont get me wrong, there are many cyclists who are very good - but some are appalling and are asking to be run over.

http://youtu.be/V83XKkVYZ-I

I don't think the guy who jumped will learn, it would appear it's ok to turn left if you are a cyclist.

[SG167]

Ghibli said:

http://youtu.be/V83XKkVYZ-I

I don't think the guy who jumped will learn, it would appear it's ok to turn left if you are a cyclist.

a common sight

[grumpy52]

Just some thoughts from someone who drives a truck in London fairly regularly.
Cyclists are not capable of stopping in an emergency .(they crash)
Why no mirrors (nobody else matters)
Red lights don't apply to them .
One way streets don't apply to them .
They don't put their own safety first .
They never do anything wrong .

[Mr Will]

grumpy52 said:

Just some thoughts from someone who drives a truck in London fairly regularly.
Cyclists are not capable of stopping in an emergency .(they crash)
Why no mirrors (nobody else matters)
Red lights don't apply to them .
One way streets don't apply to them .
They don't put their own safety first .
They never do anything wrong .

Just some thoughts from someone who cycles in London fairly regularly.
Truckies are always in a rush to get to the next red light.
Their vehicles are dangerous, with excessive blind spots even when they can be bothered looking in their mirrors.
"might is right" therefore they can bully anything smaller than them.
The don't look more than 6 feet in front of their cab, traffic islands are always an unexpected surprise.
"Can do" lights give them right of way over all other vehicles.
Just because they are safe, nobody else matters.
Everything is everyone elses fault. Trucks are more important than anything else on the road.

(Just in the interest of balance you understand)

[Hackney]

aclivity said:

Hackney said:

aclivity said:

Hackney said:

But I bet you've never seen a line of cars waiting at a red line when another car drives around them and continues through the red light?

I appreciate cars sneaking through on amber or red happens and is VERY VERY BAD but in terms of degrees of wrong, there's a difference between going through a just changed light and driving / cycling through long after everyone else has stopped.

I see that quite often, to be honest - not when I am on my bike, but in my car.

Every single day I have to go through a reduced width bit of road. Big white arrow (the "main route" is in MY direction. Most days I have to avoid cars deciding that I am only a bike, I will move for them. They get a bit of a surprise when I decide not to move over.

That's a different thing though, not a red light.

I know - that is why they are different paragraphs. If it had been the same, I would have done "I see it quite often, such as ...".

What I see regularly is on the roundabout near Wigan's Asda supermarket. There are lots of traffic lights, from memory there are 4 in a row before you get to the lights. What I see, often, is that a car wanting to turn left will go through 3 of them in the right hand land before hitting the last lights and wanting to turn left. If the light goes red, they still tend to go on.

Happier with this?

Not happier to be honest, it's still not what I described.
It sounds very odd though, Asda Wigan with it's 4 rows of lights before you get to the lights. I'll try to avoid it.

[aclivity]

Hackney said:

it's still not what I described.

It is EXACTLY what you described - car going around the cars waiting to turn left, and carrying on even when the light is red.

[V8s ONLY]

The big problem with cyclists running red lights,or ignoring any and all rules of the road is it annoys drivers of motor vehicles,who are then tempted to take their annoyance out on said cyclist when they catch up with them further up the road.

[Hackney]

aclivity said:

Hackney said:

it's still not what I described.

It is EXACTLY what you described - car going around the cars waiting to turn left, and carrying on even when the light is red.

Nope. I never mentioned anything about a queue waiting to turning left. Just a line of cars.
You know, what some cyclists do.
I'll repeat it....

Hackney said:

But I bet you've never seen a line of cars waiting at a red line when another car drives around them and continues through the red light?

My only mistake was typing "line" when I meant "light" but I've left that in so you don't accuse me of editing my own post.

Anyway, moving on....

[saaby93]

Yes I thought I'd tried to drop the red light red herring earlier
So setting aside red lights and segregated cycle lanes (as its unlikely to collide with a car, bus or truck in one) can we get back to the thread topic about where cyclists are meeting an untimely end in mixed use situations