Another cyclist dies in London
Discussion
Driver charged with causing death by careless driving of Janina Gehlau at Ludgate Circus last year.
http://road.cc/157567
Alleged that he turned left across her while she was continuing straight on.
http://road.cc/157567
Alleged that he turned left across her while she was continuing straight on.
Dick Turpin said:
A bit more information. http://road.cc/content/news/157528-cyclist-s-death...
There's something terribly wrong when a mistake like this can so easily lead to someone's death.
The only solution I can see is proper protected segregated infrastructure, especially at junctions.
I absolutely loathe that site, you rarely get someone who isn't a muppet commenting in the sections at the bottom:There's something terribly wrong when a mistake like this can so easily lead to someone's death.
The only solution I can see is proper protected segregated infrastructure, especially at junctions.
muppet said:
a person should not need their spidey senses to be at 100% all the time just in order to survive.
If you're not going to have 100% concentration riding in London then don't ride FFS! Yes, it's tragic, but it could have been so easily involved if that girl had known the risks of putting herself where she did.I often wonder if the nature of these HGVs turning left has anything to do with so many accidents/deaths. Example; traveling a fair distance across the junction before turning, thus giving the cyclist the impression that the vehicle is going straight on regardless of indication shown?
http://youtu.be/vmAVycQX1lE
Here's a bit of stupidity from a lorry driver and cyclists.
Luckily nobody was hurt on this occasion.
Here's a bit of stupidity from a lorry driver and cyclists.
Luckily nobody was hurt on this occasion.
Ghibli said:
http://youtu.be/hZJZIaTSQxo
I have put this clip in this thread due to it being cycling related.
Is it just me or are these cyclists using their hand signals in completely the wrong place ?
Just for the record I don't think the car should have pulled out although he/she could have been reading the hand signals wrong.
I am not having a go or defending, I would just like to see other people's opinions.
The Prius wasn't going to stop regardless of any hand signals.I have put this clip in this thread due to it being cycling related.
Is it just me or are these cyclists using their hand signals in completely the wrong place ?
Just for the record I don't think the car should have pulled out although he/she could have been reading the hand signals wrong.
I am not having a go or defending, I would just like to see other people's opinions.
If the kid indicated too early it was only marginal but there's no way the Prius driver could say, "I saw him indicate and then pulled out"
Hackney said:
The Prius wasn't going to stop regardless of any hand signals.
If the kid indicated too early it was only marginal but there's no way the Prius driver could say, "I saw him indicate and then pulled out"
I think the point being made is that the father/instructor was already indicating left well before the first left turn.If the kid indicated too early it was only marginal but there's no way the Prius driver could say, "I saw him indicate and then pulled out"
It could be bad communication due to hand signals or the Prius was going no matter what ? yet had he not been signalling left at the first turn the Prius could be blamed completely.
swisstoni said:
I might have a suggestion to help this. A bit more possible than redesigned trucks and drivers with compound eyes.
Many moons ago drivers of large vehicles often had a 'mate' in the cab. They would help with manoeuvres and general stuff. I think only 'abnormal loads' have this sort of luxury now.
It would be an idea for tippers and similar (in central London only) to have to have a driver and an assistant. The assistant could take care of the nearside at all times and obviously give some choice advice to anyone who thought is was a good idea to come up the inside of a turning truck. The assistant could be a labourer off the site, for instance, and would only be needed for a short time.
Of course it would add to costs and these could be borne by the developer or any other entity looking for the good PR of sponsoring the prevention of people getting killed.
When you say the labourer would only be needed for a short time, the only way that could work would be for someone to remain with the truck for the entire day.You would need dozens of drivers mates for each company.You can hardly run ten vehicles in and out of a site all day long and keep dropping labourers off a few miles from the site on your way out and ask them to wait on a corner to be picked up on your return trip.Many moons ago drivers of large vehicles often had a 'mate' in the cab. They would help with manoeuvres and general stuff. I think only 'abnormal loads' have this sort of luxury now.
It would be an idea for tippers and similar (in central London only) to have to have a driver and an assistant. The assistant could take care of the nearside at all times and obviously give some choice advice to anyone who thought is was a good idea to come up the inside of a turning truck. The assistant could be a labourer off the site, for instance, and would only be needed for a short time.
Of course it would add to costs and these could be borne by the developer or any other entity looking for the good PR of sponsoring the prevention of people getting killed.
Nice idea, but there are too many trucks with too many drops to make it work.And given the cost of running these vehicles, I can't see various companies paying two lots of wages.
Laurel Green said:
I often wonder if the nature of these HGVs turning left has anything to do with so many accidents/deaths. Example; traveling a fair distance across the junction before turning, thus giving the cyclist the impression that the vehicle is going straight on regardless of indication shown?
Which still begs the question why you would travel up the inside of an HGV that has its indicator flashing.Why would you? Why would anyone? Yet it happens to me every single time I am in the city.Digby said:
Which still begs the question why you would travel up the inside of an HGV that has its indicator flashing.Why would you? Why would anyone? Yet it happens to me every single time I am in the city.
Lack of education, I suspect. Plus, perhaps, a lack of awareness.Something that might 'prod' them into awareness would be a fighter-aircraft type score chart on the back of HGVs, with crossed off cyclists - scare tactics might just help.
heebeegeetee said:
HC rule 172
The approach to a junction may have a ‘Give Way’ sign or a triangle marked on the road. You MUST give way to traffic on the main road when emerging from a junction with broken white lines across the road.
Incorrect signals given by other road users don't overide this rule. It is the driver's decision to proceed, it will be his fault if there is a collision.
Sure, that's what the highway code said and were this a court of law had an accident occurred it would probably be more the driver's fault. However, this isn't court and it's very clear the actions of the father were a huge factor in causing the car to pull out (which he shouldn't) and thus, I think it's fair to say it is his fault. The approach to a junction may have a ‘Give Way’ sign or a triangle marked on the road. You MUST give way to traffic on the main road when emerging from a junction with broken white lines across the road.
Incorrect signals given by other road users don't overide this rule. It is the driver's decision to proceed, it will be his fault if there is a collision.
By law if I call Mike Tyson a
and he assaults me, he'll be the one going to jail but that doesn't mean I didn't cause getting a slap. Laurel Green said:
Digby said:
Which still begs the question why you would travel up the inside of an HGV that has its indicator flashing.Why would you? Why would anyone? Yet it happens to me every single time I am in the city.
Lack of education, I suspect. Plus, perhaps, a lack of awareness.Something that might 'prod' them into awareness would be a fighter-aircraft type score chart on the back of HGVs, with crossed off cyclists - scare tactics might just help.
BJG1 said:
Sure, that's what the highway code said and were this a court of law had an accident occurred it would probably be more the driver's fault. However, this isn't court and it's very clear the actions of the father were a huge factor in causing the car to pull out (which he shouldn't) and thus, I think it's fair to say it is his fault.
By law if I call Mike Tyson a and he assaults me, he'll be the one going to jail but that doesn't mean I didn't cause getting a slap.
So is this a forum for bad drivers then, where we all complain how unfair it and that a common error by someone else made us crash?By law if I call Mike Tyson a
and he assaults me, he'll be the one going to jail but that doesn't mean I didn't cause getting a slap. Come on, this is a non-topic. We know what the rules and if we have a problem with them we shouldn't be driving.
heebeegeetee said:
So is this a forum for bad drivers then, where we all complain how unfair it and that a common error by someone else made us crash?
Come on, this is a non-topic. We know what the rules and if we have a problem with them we shouldn't be driving.
I think you've misinterpreted my post. I wouldn't pull out of that junction if I were the car driver and I don't think he should have his driving excused because they signalled. From the driver's perspective, it's poor driving but as a cyclist (or any road user) you need to be anticipating that and not doing things which make it more likely. It is the signalling that has caused the driver to pull out (probably) so it's piss poor signalling. Come on, this is a non-topic. We know what the rules and if we have a problem with them we shouldn't be driving.
saaby93 said:
Is it a London issue? In other places would most cyclists hold station in traffic rather than creeping up alongside it? We've seen videos where people dont realise that going up the inside of a truck signalling left is not a good idea
Do advance stop lines take some of the blame? The idea was to stop traffic behind cyclists but some cyclists seem to use these as a reason to run past the inside (or outside) of traffic, only to find theyre being overtaken later.
Are there more of these in London than elsewhere?
London is a big place, has a lot of traffic and is bound to have a lot of crashes, but we don't seem to hear about this sort of crash elsewhere. Do advance stop lines take some of the blame? The idea was to stop traffic behind cyclists but some cyclists seem to use these as a reason to run past the inside (or outside) of traffic, only to find theyre being overtaken later.
Are there more of these in London than elsewhere?
They do seem to be mid 20's educated women in the main, I just wonder if they just lack common sense.
One or two crashes like this are understandable, but you would think that after the first few word would get out that it is a REALLY bad idea to go up this side of vehicles, particularly if they are big vehicles.
I'll only filter between lorries at light on my sports bike if I know there is space to get in front of them. Even though I can easily out drag them, I only have to stall the bike, which is easy on under pressure and I could well end up as road kill.
BJG1 said:
I think you've misinterpreted my post. I wouldn't pull out of that junction if I were the car driver and I don't think he should have his driving excused because they signalled. From the driver's perspective, it's poor driving but as a cyclist (or any road user) you need to be anticipating that and not doing things which make it more likely. It is the signalling that has caused the driver to pull out (probably) so it's piss poor signalling.
Nothing caused the driver to pull out other than the driver himself, it's his decision.It's a common scenario, and it shouldn't cause us any difficulty. It's a non topic.
Digby said:
Which still begs the question why you would travel up the inside of an HGV that has its indicator flashing.Why would you? Why would anyone? Yet it happens to me every single time I am in the city.
Most of the time, vehicles don't indicate until they are at the point of turning. Every day I have to watch out for idiots, everyday I see them failing to indicate until the turn.Its not like it is hard, just a few meters earlier.
The videos I see from cyclist cams there seems to be alot of cyclist who are borderline suicidal. They seem to steam into every situation with little regard for their own safety and then when a vehicle is in their path do little or nothing to avoid a collision. I mean every time a car in front of me does something silly in front of me I could keep my foot to floor and hope for the best or I could hang back manage my own risk.
Cyclists should be insured by law, just as a 25 mph moped has to be. Helmets compulsory also.
Then (and i know this will annoy some) we can start looking at the ludicrously over-used roadwork network in London and other big cities. IE penalties for using cars using the busiest roads in peak times and cash incentives for people using bicycles and motorcycles and for travelling outside of peak times.
The congestion charge helps a tad, but far too many exclusions apply and i could tell last week for example that London and Birmingham are chronically over-vehicled in peak hours. We sat for hours getting nowhere fast and we will be staying away or going by train in future. That was a landmark week for me. Never known traffic like it.
But the problem of too many of us wanting the same bit of road is getting worse by the year, fuelled by population explosion including another 650,000 people coming to the UK last year alone and people living longer.
Something has to be done and it will annoy many but it has to change or the country will just come to a stand one day effectively.
Then (and i know this will annoy some) we can start looking at the ludicrously over-used roadwork network in London and other big cities. IE penalties for using cars using the busiest roads in peak times and cash incentives for people using bicycles and motorcycles and for travelling outside of peak times.
The congestion charge helps a tad, but far too many exclusions apply and i could tell last week for example that London and Birmingham are chronically over-vehicled in peak hours. We sat for hours getting nowhere fast and we will be staying away or going by train in future. That was a landmark week for me. Never known traffic like it.
But the problem of too many of us wanting the same bit of road is getting worse by the year, fuelled by population explosion including another 650,000 people coming to the UK last year alone and people living longer.
Something has to be done and it will annoy many but it has to change or the country will just come to a stand one day effectively.
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