Another cyclist dies in London

[Robert Elise]

okgo said:

There are a LOT of cases where driving without due care has resulted in death. But they get let off. Here is one that sounds like an obvious lack of due care - http://road.cc/content/news/140616-articulated-lor...

Well to be honest, a truck with a blindspot that big isn't safe to be in an area like Central London IMO. Certainly not at the same time that thousands of people are cycling to work.

I will try to find the figures.

that specific article isn't a good one as he was cleared. I haven't seen the cctv footage, but the court found him not guilty. Your point earlier was when proven guilty they get off lightly.
Anyway, let's not fall into extrapolating from individual cases. There are bad drivers and bad cyclists.
As someone who lives in london i see bad behaviour all round. What does surprise me is how many cyclists put themselves in harm's way. Jumping red lights is one action that may also catch vehicle drivers not just at the actual junction but possibly 200m further along at a turn when a driver thought he was the last vehicle to pass on amber. Causality in RTAs is often multi-dimensional and often a 'victim' will have made unwise choices.

[esuuv]

Blue Oval84 said:

Perhaps it's the cyclists that aren't fit to be on the road if they're so impatient that they'd rather put themselves in a dangerous blind spot than just hang back and wait a moment...

Exactly this -I cycle in London a lot - if theres a truck and there isn't enough space to get right past it before its going to move then stay where you are. With cross rail etc there are a lot of construction type trucks, on top of the usual delivery stuff. The number of times i've waited behind one clearly signalling left stationary at lights and cyclists squeeze up the inside - well actually its every single time, people just do not look beyond getting to the front of the line........

i'm not saying that the truck drivers shouldn't be more aware - but the fact he "should" have noticed doesn't help much if you get squished.

[neil1jnr]

Is every cylists death going to be news on here?

I might sound cold but...

Accidents happen.

[sleep envy]

heebeegeetee said:

okgo said:

Isn't that just plain victim blaming?

Also lets not forget that a lot of the accidents do not involved blind spots, they're just massive driver error, like that one I linked to, like the one on High Holborn where she was run over from behind by a tipper truck and dragged 20m up the road under the truck.

To be fair right now it's 50/50 whose to blame until we know more. Just because someone's dead doesn't make him blameless (and indeed it could even be debated who the victim is).

That junction is round the corner from me, you need eyes up your arse going through it as there's lots of traffic coming from all directions.

I reckon the lorry was stopped at the lights just before the left turn, the cyclist has come up the hill (knackered and out of breath) and kept going thinking that the lorry won't turn left just yet...

Seen it before there, if it's not the left turn vehicles that you need to watch out for, it's either the traffic heading into town squeezing you by the island or the cars coming from Manor House turning right towards Stamford Hill that cut you up.

Was redesigned last year to make it safer.

[GC8]

If you ride a bike on the road, then NEVER ride up the nearside of HGVs EVER!

And because we don't know yet what exactly happened (by this I mean that the driver may have overtaken her and then turned left - it should NEVER happen but Im sure that it does): if you are cycling then be acutely aware of junctions upcoming on your left and vehicles overtaking you which may then turn.

[J..]

In Amsterdam, where I live at the moment, it's almost obligatory for bikes to undertake slow moving cars/trucks Interestingly cars/trucks always give way to bikes undertaking. If you hit a bike here, it's always the car's fault regardless of what happened.

It's a bit of a headache when you have hundreds of bikes undertaking you at the lights and you're trying turn right (=left in UK). No bike lights, no helmets, no recognition of traffic light colours, no recognition of one-ways signs results in a quite stressful wait for a gap! You've got it easy in the UK, stop complaining

A bit off topic, but 1 in 3 people commuting by bike has its upsides though.... less pollution, less traffic, less dead bikers, safer for kids, no clogged public transport, no overweight people clogging the health system etc etc.

[GC8]

The only place that I have ever felt safe riding a push bike. You seldom have to actually ride on the road in Nederland, though.

[gazza285]

Blue Oval84 said:

gazza285 said:

Smitters said:

TfL released this a while back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzL0Kyk4m-8

It's properly shocking and makes you realise it takes two to tango most times. Unfortunately (and I say this as a cyclist) the lack of access to formal training for road riding past your cycling proficiency aged 8 or whatever, means many cyclists simply wouldn't grasp how much danger they can put themselves in at times. Just like driving, appropriate road positioning is king, as is knowing when to be defensive, when to stash the ego, and when being more offensive (I don't mean using the finger...!) is actually safer.

What I can't figure out about that video is why half of the blind spot mirror is looking at the cab, if it was adjusted correctly most of those cyclists would be visible.

Because half way through a turn (like that lorry is) the blind spot mirrors will be pointing at the side of the vehicle. Unless the mirror was somehow electrically adjusted in line with the angle of turn, it will only point in one direction. This means that a mirror which shows the blind spot when driving straight ahead, will only show the side of the vehicle during a turn.

Yes it is looking at the side of the trailer, but half of it is also looking at the side of the cab, it should be adjusted so the cab only catches the inner edge, or else what is the point of a wide angle mirror if half of it isn't doing any good?

[Dave Hedgehog]

J.. said:

In Amsterdam, where I live at the moment, it's almost obligatory for bikes to undertake slow moving cars/trucks Interestingly cars/trucks always give way to bikes undertaking. If you hit a bike here, it's always the car's fault regardless of what happened.

fantastic law

so if a bikist jumps a red light, drunk out of his box whilst texting and goes under the front of your car you go to jail


nice ...

[Vee]

swisstoni said:

Of course cyclists need to take more care but I cannot see why we have trucks moving around busy streets driven by people who are incentivised by pay per load or by penalties for missed 'slots'. This can't be helping them put safety first.

Absolutely this, all day long

[shakotan]

gazza285 said:

Blue Oval84 said:

gazza285 said:

Smitters said:

TfL released this a while back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzL0Kyk4m-8

It's properly shocking and makes you realise it takes two to tango most times. Unfortunately (and I say this as a cyclist) the lack of access to formal training for road riding past your cycling proficiency aged 8 or whatever, means many cyclists simply wouldn't grasp how much danger they can put themselves in at times. Just like driving, appropriate road positioning is king, as is knowing when to be defensive, when to stash the ego, and when being more offensive (I don't mean using the finger...!) is actually safer.

What I can't figure out about that video is why half of the blind spot mirror is looking at the cab, if it was adjusted correctly most of those cyclists would be visible.

Because half way through a turn (like that lorry is) the blind spot mirrors will be pointing at the side of the vehicle. Unless the mirror was somehow electrically adjusted in line with the angle of turn, it will only point in one direction. This means that a mirror which shows the blind spot when driving straight ahead, will only show the side of the vehicle during a turn.

Yes it is looking at the side of the trailer, but half of it is also looking at the side of the cab, it should be adjusted so the cab only catches the inner edge, or else what is the point of a wide angle mirror if half of it isn't doing any good?

Its a propaganda video, see how badly the mirrors are adjusted, PLUS the vehicle is already started a turn. With correctly adjusted mirrors and the truck straight, the cyclists would easily be seen.

[ZX10R NIN]

As a driver I find these deaths very sad but I truly believe this has more to do with positioning than the lorries/buses when on my Motorbike in London it always amazes me how many cyclists dive down the inside of hgv's/buses in traffic or at junctions as riders we are taught to go around the outside of HGV's buses as it puts you in a position where the driver is more likely to be looking & less likely to be turning into you. Most of these accidents seem to be happening on left turns, so I can only assume that positioning & training is a greater problem than the truck/cyclist.

Also why aren't cycle lanes raised to pavement level? This would help separate cyclists from the motorized traffic plus bring them into a drivers eyeline.

When you reach a junction the cyclist gets off, crosses the same as a pedestrian therefore is less exposed to danger.

These are just my thoughts from what I've observed as a motorcyclist truck & car driver.

[toerag]

shakotan said:

see how badly the mirrors are adjusted, PLUS the vehicle is already started a turn.

[ZX10R NIN]

toerag said:

shakotan said:

see how badly the mirrors are adjusted, PLUS the vehicle is already started a turn.

If the truck has his indicator on why would you be diving down the inside of a truck?

[anonymous-user]

Dave Hedgehog said:

J.. said:

In Amsterdam, where I live at the moment, it's almost obligatory for bikes to undertake slow moving cars/trucks Interestingly cars/trucks always give way to bikes undertaking. If you hit a bike here, it's always the car's fault regardless of what happened.

fantastic law

so if a bikist jumps a red light, drunk out of his box whilst texting and goes under the front of your car you go to jail


nice ...

Where do it say immunity from being drunk or texting? Also if you had bothered to take a look at the infrastructure out there the 'why' would make more sense to you. The Netherlands is a happy place to work and live, I wonder how they have managed that...perhaps they are just less dense than the average UK driver?

Further information;

internet said:

A form of strict liability has been law in the Netherlands since the early 1990s for bicycle-motor vehicle accidents.[11] In a nutshell this means that, in a collision between a car and a cyclist, the driver's insurer is deemed to be liable to pay damages (n.b. motor vehicle insurance is mandatory in the Netherlands, while cyclist insurance is not) to the cyclist's property and their medical bills as long as 1) the cyclist did not intentionally crash into the motor vehicle, and 2) the cyclist was not in error in some way.[11] If the cyclist was in error, as long as the collision was still unintentional, the motorist's insurance must still pay half of the damages — though this doesn't apply if the cyclist is under 14 years of age, in which case the motorist must pay full damages.[11] If it can be proved that a cyclist intended to collide with the car, then the cyclist must pay the damages (or his/her parents in the case of a minor.)[11]

[GC8]

shakotan said:

Its a propaganda video, see how badly the mirrors are adjusted, PLUS the vehicle is already started a turn. With correctly adjusted mirrors and the truck straight, the cyclists would easily be seen.

It's making a valid point and cyclists need to be aware. As I have met you I am reluctant to argue on a forum, but your post is foolish in the extreme.

You can't drive a lorry Dan, and suggesting that there isn't a real issue when you don't know what you are talking about is far from helpful.

Foolish/ignorant/naive cyclists put themselves in a position of grave danger everyday. Some get grievously injured or die when vehicles turn left. To suggest that the driver could see them if his mirrors were correctly adjusted / he looked is fking unbelievably ignorant and stupid.

An HGV driver spends a far grater proportion of his time looking in all mirrors - its a fundamental part of driving such a large vehicle. Observation is as much a part of turning the vehicle as turning the steering wheel is.

Cyclists get injured when, principally, they put themselves in a position of danger, and secondarily, when the driver of the vehicle is unable to see them in that position.

Cyclists do this through ignorance, so undermining a positive video and trying to be clever about a topic where you don't really know what you are talking about is foolish, and doing it in this thread is fking stupid.

The reason that this winds me up so much is because I DO know what I am talking about.

edited to add: the PHer quoted hadn't realised that the film was aimed at cyclists

Edited by GC8 on Wednesday 21st January 13:28

[MarJay]

It's no good arguing who is in the right or wrong if you're dead. This line has been quoted to me a thousand times as a motorcyclist. The same is true for cyclists. They should avoid large trucks, and certainly should never ever cycle up the inside of a truck where there is a left hand junction. As a motorcyclist, if I did this I'd have a thousand people telling me I deserved to get knocked off (I wouldn't agree of course, but that's what people do). However because bicycles are fluffy and nice and good for small kittens and hedgerows no one considers that actually they might have contributed to the accident.

Who gives a crap whose fault it is in the eyes of the law, the cyclist could have taken better steps to preserve their own life. It's all very sad, and I feel for their families (and for the lorry drivers of course) but the simple fact of the matter is that self preservation should always be golden rule number 1.

[gazza285]

ZX10R NIN said:

As a driver I find these deaths very sad but I truly believe this has more to do with positioning than the lorries/buses when on my Motorbike in London it always amazes me how many cyclists dive down the inside of hgv's/buses in traffic or at junctions as riders we are taught to go around the outside of HGV's buses as it puts you in a position where the driver is more likely to be looking & less likely to be turning into you. Most of these accidents seem to be happening on left turns, so I can only assume that positioning & training is a greater problem than the truck/cyclist.

Also why aren't cycle lanes raised to pavement level? This would help separate cyclists from the motorized traffic plus bring them into a drivers eyeline.

When you reach a junction the cyclist gets off, crosses the same as a pedestrian therefore is less exposed to danger.

These are just my thoughts from what I've observed as a motorcyclist truck & car driver.

But not as a cyclist. If cycle paths were raised to the same height as the pavement they would be full of pedestrians, also where does the extra road width come from? Get off at every junction? Seriously?

In 2012 there were 17 cyclist deaths in London, there were also 629 motorcyclist deaths, perhaps they should get off and walk across junctions too?

[J..]

Dave Hedgehog said:

fantastic law

so if a bikist jumps a red light, drunk out of his box whilst texting and goes under the front of your car you go to jail


nice ...

I thought it was crazy when I came over, but it now makes a lot of sense to me.

Replace that drunk cyclist in your example with an 8 year old child who makes a small mistake whilst cycling to school.

The roads in Amsterdam are packed full of school children at school time. None of them wear helmets, few have lights, their bikes are too big, no adults supervising, their "lane positioning" is terrible etc etc. They survive because the car/lorry drivers are looking out for them.

[dacouch]

When I saw the headline I thought it may have been the cyclist who I encountered yesterday who had a serious death wish had managed to try the trick on another truck in London and met with someone without the same extra extra precautions I take for cyclists.

With regard to cyclist jumping red lights, bear in mind when I go through a set of traffic lights or turn at a set of lights, as well as checking my mirrors and where I'm going and the traffic coming towards me from the other directions and keep checking my mirrors. I also have to make a number of checks to make sure there are no cyclists who jumped the red light or decide to jump it as I perform my manoeuvre

There are some times when it's best for cyclist to go through a red light eg at some junctions just before the lights change to get a head start. But the wholesale jumping by a small number means drivers are having to make extra checks which reduce the amount of time you can check your mirrors.

Crossing on foot at lights or a zebra crossing are a nightmare as you never know if you're going to come up against one of the people who ignore the Red Light or Zebra crossing so you have to keep checking as you cross.

I drive a car, cycle and drive a truck in central London.