Another cyclist dies in London
Discussion
George111 said:
frisbee said:
George111 said:
It's about time the cyclists started taking responsibility for their own actions.
Absolutely, being easily killed or crippled is no sort of deterrent at all. Maybe a £10 fine would make them find the error of their ways?I know this makes me very unpopular with some people on PH (what, again ?
) but it does need to be said. Cyclists should not go down the left of traffic - I ride a motorbike and I'd never do that, because of the danger, and I'm wearing partial hi-viz and sitting on a large motorbike with a HID headlight.Cyclists here often admire the Dutch system but in The Netherlands cyclists are educated at school and are made aware that there are rules and they must obey them as well as cars, it's not a free-for-all just because you don't have an engine.
Nobody wants to see cyclists or anybody killed on the roads but whilst they ride down the inside of other vehicles, it will continue and the only way to stop it is to fully segregate (not possible in London) or for cyclists to learn to ride safely.
yellowjack said:
Oh do f
k off, Georgie boy.
Just today I was beeped at for having the temerity to ride my bicycle more than two feet from the carriageway edge. My reason for doing so? Well it could well have been the water which had collected along the kerbside over a number of previous days, and which had solidified into an alarmingly slippery riding surface as a result of overnight low temperatures.
Well. When the tt in the Renault tooted at me, I simply pointed toward the ENTIRELY EMPTY opposite lane, just a little to my right. But this wound tt-boy up sooooo much that he deliberately buzzed my right elbow with his car, yet when invited back for a discussion he roared off like the chicken-st fkwit he was.
I took FULL responsibility for my actions. From getting into my super-sexy fanny-magnet Lycra™ gear, to climbing onto my bike, I fully accepted that I'd look like a proper doofus. Then, when faced with the choice of a) stopping and turning around, or b) riding on sheet ice and inevitably face-planting within seconds, or c) riding further out into the road, I took what I thought was the safe choice. But some educationally sub-normal arse-face in a badly maintained, crappy from the outset French hatchback decided to be the only driver (of many who passed me safely this morning) to make an issue out of it.
Rest assured, the VAST majority of cyclists take their own safety, and that of others, FAR more seriously then a goodly proportion of idiot drivers, safely ensconced in their safety cages with ABS brakes and multiple airbags, behind impact protection beams, to the point where they feel soooo invincible that it's OK to drive along with a cigarette dangling from their lips whilst texting with BOTH HANDS on a 40mph single carriageway road. And that was a so-called 'professional' driver in a vehicle that requires a vocational licence.
And if the Renault driver from this morning is, by some remote chance, reading this? My invitation to "have a chat" still stands. I'm desperate to find out just how long it'll take to remove both your eyeballs with the blunt end of a bicycle pump...
...so yes, George, sweetcheeks, I'm offended by your suggestion that, up until your quoted pearl of wisdom, none of us human-powered two-wheelers was intelligent enough to take any responsibility for "our own actions". How the juddering fk I've made it to my mid forties, having cycled regularly for more than thirty of those years, I just don't know. Thank you for your genius, sugartits, encapsulated neatly as it was in a memorable soundbite. Advice I shall now treasure for as long as I live.
I only cycle half a mile to work and despite having a dangerous job think that it will be this 5 minute trip that will be what kills me. Just about every day I get overtaken while trying to turn right and clearly signalling or people squeezing between me and traffic islands. One tit ever hit the kerb/curb how ever the fk off, Georgie boy.Just today I was beeped at for having the temerity to ride my bicycle more than two feet from the carriageway edge. My reason for doing so? Well it could well have been the water which had collected along the kerbside over a number of previous days, and which had solidified into an alarmingly slippery riding surface as a result of overnight low temperatures.
Well. When the t
t in the Renault tooted at me, I simply pointed toward the ENTIRELY EMPTY opposite lane, just a little to my right. But this wound tt-boy up sooooo much that he deliberately buzzed my right elbow with his car, yet when invited back for a discussion he roared off like the chicken-st fkwit he was. I took FULL responsibility for my actions. From getting into my super-sexy fanny-magnet Lycra™ gear, to climbing onto my bike, I fully accepted that I'd look like a proper doofus. Then, when faced with the choice of a) stopping and turning around, or b) riding on sheet ice and inevitably face-planting within seconds, or c) riding further out into the road, I took what I thought was the safe choice. But some educationally sub-normal arse-face in a badly maintained, crappy from the outset French hatchback decided to be the only driver (of many who passed me safely this morning) to make an issue out of it.
Rest assured, the VAST majority of cyclists take their own safety, and that of others, FAR more seriously then a goodly proportion of idiot drivers, safely ensconced in their safety cages with ABS brakes and multiple airbags, behind impact protection beams, to the point where they feel soooo invincible that it's OK to drive along with a cigarette dangling from their lips whilst texting with BOTH HANDS on a 40mph single carriageway road. And that was a so-called 'professional' driver in a vehicle that requires a vocational licence.
And if the Renault driver from this morning is, by some remote chance, reading this? My invitation to "have a chat" still stands. I'm desperate to find out just how long it'll take to remove both your eyeballs with the blunt end of a bicycle pump...
...so yes, George, sweetcheeks, I'm offended by your suggestion that, up until your quoted pearl of wisdom, none of us human-powered two-wheelers was intelligent enough to take any responsibility for "our own actions". How the juddering f
k I've made it to my mid forties, having cycled regularly for more than thirty of those years, I just don't know. Thank you for your genius, sugartits, encapsulated neatly as it was in a memorable soundbite. Advice I shall now treasure for as long as I live.k you spell it, at what must have been 30+ on a traffic island rather than backing off a little or actually anticipating that I was going to continue riding past the fking thing. vikingaero said:
I think this is the key. Cyclists want all the rights without the responsibilities. For example the majority of drivers will give cyclists room, the minority won't. The majority of cyclists will jump red lights in towns and cities. The minority that obey red lights often only do so because the volume of traffic on the intersection stops them from proceeding.
I agree with this I feel all should have to wear helmets & those that commute should have Insurance which I'm told can be bought for £25.00 per year.Now before anyone says that a helmet won't help if you're run over by a bus, but should you hit a pot hole hitting the kerb or tarmac will be less painful with a helmet on your head.
Also the insurance is just an easy way to stop an argument, a cyclist swerved to avoid an erant pedestrian & hit a cars wing mirror causing damage the cyclist stopped & spoke to the driver. The problem was you were looking at around £400.00 of damage & as apologetic as the cyclist was he didn't want give his details out.
George111 said:
It appears not to be a deterrent or they would stop doing it wouldn't they ? It is sad but how many more cyclists have to die before they realise they SHARE the road and need to observe the same rules as everybody else ?
I know this makes me very unpopular with some people on PH (what, again ? ) but it does need to be said. Cyclists should not go down the left of traffic - I ride a motorbike and I'd never do that, because of the danger, and I'm wearing partial hi-viz and sitting on a large motorbike with a HID headlight.
Cyclists here often admire the Dutch system but in The Netherlands cyclists are educated at school and are made aware that there are rules and they must obey them as well as cars, it's not a free-for-all just because you don't have an engine.
Nobody wants to see cyclists or anybody killed on the roads but whilst they ride down the inside of other vehicles, it will continue and the only way to stop it is to fully segregate (not possible in London) or for cyclists to learn to ride safely.
I rode a motorbike for years, I don't go down the left side of traffic. I didn't grow up in the UK and I did cycle training at school. I wear reflective clothes, multiple lights at both end of the bike. I take the slightly harder route into work and back that is on quieter, wider roads. But however much preparation and however many precautions I or any other cyclist takes:I know this makes me very unpopular with some people on PH (what, again ?
) but it does need to be said. Cyclists should not go down the left of traffic - I ride a motorbike and I'd never do that, because of the danger, and I'm wearing partial hi-viz and sitting on a large motorbike with a HID headlight.Cyclists here often admire the Dutch system but in The Netherlands cyclists are educated at school and are made aware that there are rules and they must obey them as well as cars, it's not a free-for-all just because you don't have an engine.
Nobody wants to see cyclists or anybody killed on the roads but whilst they ride down the inside of other vehicles, it will continue and the only way to stop it is to fully segregate (not possible in London) or for cyclists to learn to ride safely.
No cyclist is in charge of several tons of metal travelling at high speed.
My biggest problem is the drivers who are just plain lazy, impatient or distracted. The number I see every day is scary. Clarkson was right with his big metal spike on the steering wheel idea. I would also rig it to parking sensors and some sort of explosive charge though, that'll teach the feckers who can't park either.
This is what happens with any cycling thread. The point I made was a cyclist died. The police and crown prosecution reviewed all the evidence and all agreed it was not the lorry drivers fault. Now the spokesman for cyclists, chose to ignore that fact and was disappointed there was no prosecution. So he would rather an innocent man be prosecuted, whose life will never be the same again, because he knows better.
There are bad drivers and as many bad cyclists, that is life. You say that we must learn to share the road, that is fine so long as equality is what cyclists want. Too many threads on here which always degenerate show cyclists want to have an unequal share.
Many of the cyclists deaths are due to cyclists squeezing down the side of a truck, sitting in the blind spot. To me the answer is not to do that and wait in turn, some cyclists answer is to ban trucks which is unrealistic.
When I drive I drive defensively, when I cycle I do the same, so far it has worked. Some drivers and cyclists do not and accidents will happen. But instead of automatically blaming the car or lorry driver investigate and when there conclusion comes learn from it.
There are bad drivers and as many bad cyclists, that is life. You say that we must learn to share the road, that is fine so long as equality is what cyclists want. Too many threads on here which always degenerate show cyclists want to have an unequal share.
Many of the cyclists deaths are due to cyclists squeezing down the side of a truck, sitting in the blind spot. To me the answer is not to do that and wait in turn, some cyclists answer is to ban trucks which is unrealistic.
When I drive I drive defensively, when I cycle I do the same, so far it has worked. Some drivers and cyclists do not and accidents will happen. But instead of automatically blaming the car or lorry driver investigate and when there conclusion comes learn from it.
spaximus said:
This is what happens with any cycling thread. The point I made was a cyclist died. The police and crown prosecution reviewed all the evidence and all agreed it was not the lorry drivers fault. Now the spokesman for cyclists, chose to ignore that fact and was disappointed there was no prosecution. So he would rather an innocent man be prosecuted, whose life will never be the same again, because he knows better.
There are bad drivers and as many bad cyclists, that is life. You say that we must learn to share the road, that is fine so long as equality is what cyclists want. Too many threads on here which always degenerate show cyclists want to have an unequal share.
Many of the cyclists deaths are due to cyclists squeezing down the side of a truck, sitting in the blind spot. To me the answer is not to do that and wait in turn, some cyclists answer is to ban trucks which is unrealistic.
When I drive I drive defensively, when I cycle I do the same, so far it has worked. Some drivers and cyclists do not and accidents will happen. But instead of automatically blaming the car or lorry driver investigate and when there conclusion comes learn from it.
Very well said. This argument will go round in circles,but the simple fact is, both drivers and cyclists need to be more careful. Neither side is more to blame than the other.There are bad drivers and as many bad cyclists, that is life. You say that we must learn to share the road, that is fine so long as equality is what cyclists want. Too many threads on here which always degenerate show cyclists want to have an unequal share.
Many of the cyclists deaths are due to cyclists squeezing down the side of a truck, sitting in the blind spot. To me the answer is not to do that and wait in turn, some cyclists answer is to ban trucks which is unrealistic.
When I drive I drive defensively, when I cycle I do the same, so far it has worked. Some drivers and cyclists do not and accidents will happen. But instead of automatically blaming the car or lorry driver investigate and when there conclusion comes learn from it.
DoubleD said:
Neither side is more to blame than the other.
Unfortunately this is not true, currently the balance is that cyclists, on he whole, are taking far higher risks than they ought to by trying to buck the system. Or do you think the lorry driver looked, saw a cyclist and still decided to turn left ? Nobody wants to see anybody hurt and the driver will have this with him for the rest of his life, but as a cyclist I know I need to position myself where other road users can easily see me - that's not taking one side or another, it's just being sensible and trying to look after my own life.George111 said:
Unfortunately this is not true, currently the balance is that cyclists, on he whole, are taking far higher risks than they ought to by trying to buck the system. Or do you think the lorry driver looked, saw a cyclist and still decided to turn left ? Nobody wants to see anybody hurt and the driver will have this with him for the rest of his life, but as a cyclist I know I need to position myself where other road users can easily see me - that's not taking one side or another, it's just being sensible and trying to look after my own life.
I was talking about cyclists and drivers in general. It's not just one or the other. Both sides are to blame and both sides need to take more care.George111 said:
DoubleD said:
Neither side is more to blame than the other.
Unfortunately this is not true, currently the balance is that cyclists, on he whole, are taking far higher risks than they ought to by trying to buck the system. Or do you think the lorry driver looked, saw a cyclist and still decided to turn left ? Nobody wants to see anybody hurt and the driver will have this with him for the rest of his life, but as a cyclist I know I need to position myself where other road users can easily see me - that's not taking one side or another, it's just being sensible and trying to look after my own life.Vacumatic said:
lived in London for a few years, used to wait at bus stop next to a busy junction, every cyclist went through the junction on red lights, ran into the sides of trucks and cars. Used to walk across zebra crossings and cyclists never stopped, bouncing off pedestrians and riding off.
I was hit by a cyclist whilst crossing a road as a pedestrian, the cyclist blamed me for crossing the road.
So he just appeared from nowhere. I have drummed it into my family, look both ways, they don't always stop. Hope you weren't too hurt.I was hit by a cyclist whilst crossing a road as a pedestrian, the cyclist blamed me for crossing the road.
gazza285 said:
George111 said:
DoubleD said:
Neither side is more to blame than the other.
Unfortunately this is not true, currently the balance is that cyclists, on he whole, are taking far higher risks than they ought to by trying to buck the system. Or do you think the lorry driver looked, saw a cyclist and still decided to turn left ? Nobody wants to see anybody hurt and the driver will have this with him for the rest of his life, but as a cyclist I know I need to position myself where other road users can easily see me - that's not taking one side or another, it's just being sensible and trying to look after my own life.
George111 said:
Unfortunately this is not true, currently the balance is that cyclists, on he whole, are taking far higher risks than they ought to by trying to buck the system. Or do you think the lorry driver looked, saw a cyclist and still decided to turn left ? Nobody wants to see anybody hurt and the driver will have this with him for the rest of his life, but as a cyclist I know I need to position myself where other road users can easily see me - that's not taking one side or another, it's just being sensible and trying to look after my own life.
It's not quite like that. Many cyclists arent going out to deliberately put themselves in a dangerous position, it's that they don't realise.There was one video that highlighted it where a 'professional' cyclist who knew what he was doing went up the inside of a left indicating truck to find the 'safe' spot in front. A number of other cyclists who thought he must know what he was doing followed up through but only partially. They ended up squeezed alongside the lefting truck and some hording. Meanwhile the bike with the cam shouting don't go up there to no avail.
Surely the prfessionals have to set a lead by holding back and waiting in turn, as videos of other cyclists show?
That's only the one side we're discussion of course - there'll be another video and court case somewhere where a truck has cut across a cyclist.
yellowjack said:
Saddens me, too.
I don't think I could drive my car if it were missing any one of it's mirrors. I depend on them to know what's going on around me. I'd probably cycle to the dealership to buy a new mirror before biking home again to fit it. Maybe it's a function of having driven plenty of vehicles with restricted views and multiple blind spots, that you just use your mirrors more.
Perfectly legal to drive a vehicle without a near-side mirror. I drive one regularly. In my case it isn't missing as the car was built with only a drivers side mirror. I don't think I could drive my car if it were missing any one of it's mirrors. I depend on them to know what's going on around me. I'd probably cycle to the dealership to buy a new mirror before biking home again to fit it. Maybe it's a function of having driven plenty of vehicles with restricted views and multiple blind spots, that you just use your mirrors more.
saaby93 said:
Many cyclists arent going out to deliberately put themselves in a dangerous position, it's that they don't realise.
I realise that, I'm not accusing all cyclists of being deliberately dangerous (some are !), but as long as the cycling lobby continue with the "ban lorries" mantra, they are never going to get their own people better educated or trained in the dangers so they can avoid being injured. The emphasis is currently firmly on the driver, not the cyclist and this is what will continue to kill cyclists.There is a Police Officer who developed the Bikesafe scheme where a couple of motorcyclists spend a day with a Police rider. Police bikers are probably some of the most experienced, best trained riders there are and the information they can impart even on just a days training course is vast. I thought I knew how to ride but having been on a Bikesafe course I learnt a lot about London traffic, observation and people - these are the things which can keep you alive when you're a fraction of the weight of the other traffic.
All the time the cyclists claim it's the other persons fault they will never make progress, nothing will change and cyclists will continue to die. How about TfL launching a half day or one day cyclists training course specifically targeting those who ride in London ? London is very different from other towns and the risks are significantly higher there so a targeted training course would probably show great results very quickly.
The only way to change the risk lorries pose is by redesigning them completely and developing electronic systems to assist the driver and that's obviously not going to happen very soon.
Edit to add: Just looked at TFL site and they do offer training !
Edited by George111 on Saturday 16th January 13:58
George111 said:
London is very different from other towns and the risks are significantly higher there
Not convinced of thatIf you look at the numbers involved it may be lower risk
What you can say about London is generally everyone wants to keep things moving. So if a taxi wants to pull out. it'll just pull out and get on with it and everyone in traffic will accept its going to do that so they can get on with things too.
None of the messing about and big arguments about who has 0.0025% greater right of way you find in other places, or standing around a bent car ' I had right of way' when it could have been avoided
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