Another cyclist dies in London

[GC8]

Motorists are a menace to all types of cyclists, but push bicyclists seem to put themselves in danger's path more, with little or no idea as to how perilous their position can be.

This is the difference.

[ZX10R NIN]

WinstonWolf said:

Because wherever you're looking you're still exposed to danger. Would you get off your motorbike and cross a junction as a pedestrian?

The safest place to be when crossing that particular junction is slap bang in the middle of that lane so you can *own* the piece of road you're using.

No for two reasons:

1) I wouldn't be on the inside of a Lorry
2) If I was in front of a lorry at a junction I'd be able to accelerate away.

If I was on a pushbike I'd have no problem getting off to cross the road.

If you go by your mantra of owning the piece of road your on then if a truck is on any piece of road they own it because they're using more of it?

[whysub]

I am amazed that very few cyclists seem to have a rear view mirror on their bikes. Surely it is easy to fit one-it won't suffer the vibration some motorbikes suffer (KTM 525 anyone?), so they will see whats coming up behind them before changing direction.

[Europa1]

ZX10R NIN said:

OldGermanHeaps said:

Because cyclists and drivers are human, and are prone to mistakes, lapses in concentration, impatience, any number of factors. In every other workplace environment human performance factors are considered a hazard and control measures are put in place to minimise risk as far as reasonably practicable or face prosecution. Why just because roads are involved do people think it is possible for people to never make any error? Its impossible. EVERYONE makes an error at some point. There should be some recognition of this in roadway design and vehicle design.

Being human means that we will ALL make mistakes that being said then why are a lot of the people writing on this thread so adamant that it's the Truck driver/Cyclists fault?

Is it because that as a society there now has to be someone to blame rather than it being an ACCIDENT in which one human being made a mistake & it cost them their life or caused anothers death either way an error will have been made by one or both parties.

Which has been my point all the way through this Educate cyclists to the dangers & you will find that you get less deaths involving lorries, a cyclist is the only road user that doesn't have to take a test.

I'm not saying they should have to but going to an awareness course will help.

I don't doubt that educating cyclists is a key factor. Whilst it's true they don't have to take a test, looking at the woeful displays of driving/lack of spatial awareness you seem from a lot of motorists, I think there is a big reminder piece to be undertaken for motorists too eg "just indicating does not mean the bit of road you want to move into will be magically clear of traffic - you actually need to check it first" or "indicators are not just useful for other motor vehicles - all road users find them helpful."

[WinstonWolf]

ZX10R NIN said:

WinstonWolf said:

Because wherever you're looking you're still exposed to danger. Would you get off your motorbike and cross a junction as a pedestrian?

The safest place to be when crossing that particular junction is slap bang in the middle of that lane so you can *own* the piece of road you're using.

No for two reasons:

1) I wouldn't be on the inside of a Lorry
2) If I was in front of a lorry at a junction I'd be able to accelerate away.

If I was on a pushbike I'd have no problem getting off to cross the road.

If you go by your mantra of owning the piece of road your on then if a truck is on any piece of road they own it because they're using more of it?

You're obviously not an advanced motorcyclist if you don't understand the concept of owning your space. Have you considered any additional rider training?

[Europa1]

NickGibbs said:

pablo said:

Motorbikes are not seen as a hinderenace to motorists because they can maintain a steady speed and rarely do they cause a motorist to slow down. Plus motorcyclists pay VED, which many motorists still regard as road tax aka permission to use the road thus they are a kindered spirit. Also its easier to break laws on a push bike, riding on pavements etc and thats what most people see so they tar all cyclists with the same brush. Motorcyclists are probably more likely to abide by traffic laws and thus dont rile motorists as much as pedal cyclists.

That sounds very plausible. Shame though we don't get the same detailed discussions on how to make roads safer for motorcyclists

Agreed on that: I think motorists get immensely frustrated at the feeling that cyclists can break traffic laws without any sanction, whereas motorcyclists are mire likely to face sanction (except from forward-facing speed cameras - grrr!), and I think the speed issue is a factor - the motorist overtakes a slow moving cyclist, comes to a red light, cyclist moves up the inside to take station in front of the motorist has to overtake slow moving cyclist again.

[ZX10R NIN]

WinstonWolf said:

The majority of cyclists on PH are drivers and in many cases motorcyclists too.

Yes most cyclists may drive but driving is different to riding a pushbike/motorbike your level of awareness to your surroundings & your own vulnerability needs to be much higher as you're exposed to things that can hurt you constantly throughout your journey, pot holes badly maintained roads (The tarmac which always hurts should you have to meet it) Petrol/Diesel spills etc & this is before you add the other road users.

So yes as a cyclist you have to take more responsibility for your safety because if you make a mistake or someone else does there's one thing that will remain constant. YOU GET HURT

Stop asking for lorries to be banned from London & work with other road users on real solutions.

[WinstonWolf]

ZX10R NIN said:

WinstonWolf said:

The majority of cyclists on PH are drivers and in many cases motorcyclists too.

Yes most cyclists may drive but driving is different to riding a pushbike/motorbike your level of awareness to your surroundings & your own vulnerability needs to be much higher as you're exposed to things that can hurt you constantly throughout your journey, pot holes badly maintained roads (The tarmac which always hurts should you have to meet it) Petrol/Diesel spills etc & this is before you add the other road users.

So yes as a cyclist you have to take more responsibility for your safety because if you make a mistake or someone else does there's one thing that will remain constant. YOU GET HURT

Stop asking for lorries to be banned from London & work with other road users on real solutions.

I haven't. HTH.

[ZX10R NIN]

walm said:

Who asked to ban something?

Someone wanted an economical camera fitted or something.
No ban!

If you read through the post a number of cyclists have asked for large trucks to be banned from London.

[anonymous-user]

ZX10R NIN said:

WinstonWolf said:

The majority of cyclists on PH are drivers and in many cases motorcyclists too.

Yes most cyclists may drive but driving is different to riding a pushbike/motorbike your level of awareness to your surroundings & your own vulnerability needs to be much higher as you're exposed to things that can hurt you constantly throughout your journey, pot holes badly maintained roads (The tarmac which always hurts should you have to meet it) Petrol/Diesel spills etc & this is before you add the other road users.

So yes as a cyclist you have to take more responsibility for your safety because if you make a mistake or someone else does there's one thing that will remain constant. YOU GET HURT

Stop asking for lorries to be banned from London & work with other road users on real solutions.

Herein lies the problem, if someone else makes a mistake I get hurt.... yet I have to take MORE responsibility for my safety? I cant mitigate against the fkwits who drink and drive, text and drive, dont look in their mirrors, ignore road signs, think its funny to squeeze past me against oncoming traffic.....

[ZX10R NIN]

WinstonWolf said:

You're obviously not an advanced motorcyclist if you don't understand the concept of owning your space. Have you considered any additional rider training?

I understood what you meant but was making the point that it's not practical to ride in the middle of the road holding up traffic.

[walm]

ZX10R NIN said:

If you read through the post a number of cyclists have asked for large trucks to be banned from London.

Sorry I must have missed it.
I just saw the one guy rhetorically asking if it were realistic to ban them and then answering himself in the negative!

Also FYI - there is free cycle training in most London Boroughs.
Your solution already exists!

[ZX10R NIN]

walm said:

Motorcyclist dies:

PH said:

RIP

Cyclist dies:

PH said:

Probably their fault.

It's not really that surprising that PH would sympathise more with the petrol driven one.

My favourite in this thread so far:

Blue Oval84 said:

okgo said:

Blue Oval84 said:

Perhaps it's the cyclists that aren't fit to be on the road if they're so impatient that they'd rather put themselves in a dangerous blind spot than just hang back and wait a moment...

Isn't that just plain victim blaming?

Yep, with good reason.

I see a lot of things on PH when a cyclist has a fatality but not one when a motorcyclist dies.

[ZX10R NIN]

Europa1 said:

I don't doubt that educating cyclists is a key factor. Whilst it's true they don't have to take a test, looking at the woeful displays of driving/lack of spatial awareness you seem from a lot of motorists, I think there is a big reminder piece to be undertaken for motorists too eg "just indicating does not mean the bit of road you want to move into will be magically clear of traffic - you actually need to check it first" or "indicators are not just useful for other motor vehicles - all road users find them helpful."

I agree but a lot of these motorists that you're talking about with their lack of spacial awareness not using indicators etc are the same people getting on a pushbike!!!

There in lies some of the problems, I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a cyclist indicating.

Bad driving/riding is just that the difference being that a bit of bad riding means it hurts.

[v12Legs]

whysub said:

I am amazed that very few cyclists seem to have a rear view mirror on their bikes. Surely it is easy to fit one-it won't suffer the vibration some motorbikes suffer (KTM 525 anyone?), so they will see whats coming up behind them before changing direction.

I'd rather do a shoulder check: it lets me have some idea as to whether the driver behind has seen me, and I can hopefully make eye contact with them.

[v12Legs]

Europa1 said:

Agreed on that: I think motorists get immensely frustrated at the feeling that cyclists can break traffic laws without any sanction, whereas motorcyclists are mire likely to face sanction (except from forward-facing speed cameras - grrr!), and I think the speed issue is a factor - the motorist overtakes a slow moving cyclist, comes to a red light, cyclist moves up the inside to take station in front of the motorist has to overtake slow moving cyclist again.

Sorry, but this notion that cyclists are somehow less law-abiding than motorists is just laughable.
The majority of motorists are habitual speeders, but even the most damning survey puts cyclist's red light jumping as a minority.

[okgo]

ZX10R NIN said:

I see a lot of things on PH when a cyclist has a fatality but not one when a motorcyclist dies.

What about the thread that was really really long about the bloke speeding before getting clipped and dying? Plenty of chat about that one.

[whysub]

v12Legs said:

I'd rather do a shoulder check: it lets me have some idea as to whether the driver behind has seen me, and I can hopefully make eye contact with them.

Sadly those I see on pushbikes on a daily basis never do. I do them not just on my motorbike, but when in my car or van too. Funny how many vehicles you see are alongside you, but are just out of view in the mirrors. Given me a shock on a couple of occasions.

As for education, it has been my experience that people would rather spend their money on a bit of tat for their vehicle rather than spend that money on training. you have to educate people into taking education.

[ZX10R NIN]

pablo said:

Herein lies the problem, if someone else makes a mistake I get hurt.... yet I have to take MORE responsibility for my safety? I cant mitigate against the fkwits who drink and drive, text and drive, dont look in their mirrors, ignore road signs, think its funny to squeeze past me against oncoming traffic.....

Yes Pablo this is how it is, as a Motorcyclist I'm in the same boat but I accept this as a part of riding all of the above is true of riding a pushbike, at the same time there are lots of push bike riders that ignore red lights, jump junctions, drink & ride, text & ride etc.

So it's pointless blaming each other the facts are that there are good & bad drivers/riders everywhere what you have to do as an individual is try & be as safe as possible after that make sure you're wearing suitable protection & hope the incident isn't to serious.

[Hol]

v12Legs said:

Europa1 said:

Agreed on that: I think motorists get immensely frustrated at the feeling that cyclists can break traffic laws without any sanction, whereas motorcyclists are mire likely to face sanction (except from forward-facing speed cameras - grrr!), and I think the speed issue is a factor - the motorist overtakes a slow moving cyclist, comes to a red light, cyclist moves up the inside to take station in front of the motorist has to overtake slow moving cyclist again.

Sorry, but this notion that cyclists are somehow less law-abiding than motorists is just laughable.
The majority of motorists are habitual speeders, but even the most damning survey puts cyclist's red light jumping as a minority.

Nobody HAS raised that notion, but yourself??