Another cyclist dies in London

[WinstonWolf]

zimzoom said:

Easy when you know how. But it takes practise, it's not uncommon to see people fall sideways because they can't get their foot out.

If you haven't joined "that" club you're not a real cyclist. We even have a thread for new joinees

[surveyor]

The ridiculas nature of this thread struck me today as I was keeping well out of the way of the lorry that I ended up next to on a roundabout. I felt threatened as a car driver. A cyclist adjactent to a lorry on a junction and not feeling vulnerable must be very insulated from their surroundings.

[gazza285]

Hol said:

gazza285 said:

So is it the cyclists fault that the car driver is held up by a red light? The cyclist in this scenario has no bearing on the average speed of the car driver's journey, yet is somehow to blame for the car driver's anger.

I read I three times and I cannot see where the red light being there was blamed on the cyclist?

Rhetorical question in response to the notion that car drivers get frustrated because cyclists pass them while they wait at red lights.

[Europa1]

gazza285 said:

Hol said:

gazza285 said:

So is it the cyclists fault that the car driver is held up by a red light? The cyclist in this scenario has no bearing on the average speed of the car driver's journey, yet is somehow to blame for the car driver's anger.

I read I three times and I cannot see where the red light being there was blamed on the cyclist?

Rhetorical question in response to the notion that car drivers get frustrated because cyclists pass them while they wait at red lights.

Gazza285, did you read my response to your post?

[Mr Gear]

Hol said:

How hard is it to disengage and re-engage those clips on the pedals??

Easy when you know how.

[gazza285]

Europa1 said:

gazza285 said:

Hol said:

gazza285 said:

So is it the cyclists fault that the car driver is held up by a red light? The cyclist in this scenario has no bearing on the average speed of the car driver's journey, yet is somehow to blame for the car driver's anger.

I read I three times and I cannot see where the red light being there was blamed on the cyclist?

Rhetorical question in response to the notion that car drivers get frustrated because cyclists pass them while they wait at red lights.

Gazza285, did you read my response to your post?

I read I three times?

[tannhauser]

Here is a tribute to the cyclist who sadly lost her life:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/tributes-to-...

I actually had the pleasure of meeting Stephanie a couple of times through friends. I couldn't believe it when I learnt who it was on my Facebook feed that evening; after having read about it first on here... You read these awful things, that happen at the other end of the country; and never think for one moment you'll actually know the person in question.

Such a tragic loss. All the more sad when you consider her sister too (mentioned in the tribute)...

[GC8]

Very sad.

I cant help being prejudiced by the type/appearance of the lorry involved, and also by the fact that the driver was arrested.

To me, this suggests that the driver turned left on the cyclists, which is unforgivable if correct.

[tannhauser]

GC8 said:

Very sad.

I cant help being prejudiced by the type/appearance of the lorry involved, and also by the fact that the driver was arrested.

To me, this suggests that the driver turned left on the cyclists, which is unforgivable if correct.

Indeed, me too. Though I guess we will just have to wait for the outcome of the inquest.

[v12Legs]

GadgeS3C said:

I've little experience of London driving in recent years but from some of the videos I've seen posted here some of the cyclists seem to have very little concept of risk.

Now I know most of the folks on here are probably drivers/motorcyclists as well as cyclists but I do wonder how many of the London cyclists that are KSI'd do have a vehicle licence. Suspect it's not recorded.

I'm not asking because I think cyclists should have compulsory training; I'm asking because London does seem a different world for transport than most UK cities. Without the benefit of some form of training how do people pick up the basics of road safety?

This has come up a lot on this thread, but you can't get round the fact that every study puts the driver at sole fault in 75%-90% of incidents.

So it's not generally the cyclists who need schooling in road safety.
If you could make every cyclist behave perfectly it wouldn't have a very large impact on cyclist KSIs.
Surely we should be concentrating the efforts on the group that brings the most danger to the situation, and is more often at fault?

[allergictocheese]

If cyclists learned not to sit to the nearside of vehicles (particularly lorries) on approach to nearside junctions, that would save a lot of lives.

Yes, drivers should be educated to check their blind spots and punishes when they don't, however if the cyclist wasn't in that position in the first place they wouldn't be there to miss.

Being right by the letter of the law and at the same time squashed under the wheels of a lorry is not a 'win'.

[swisstoni]

v12Legs said:

GadgeS3C said:

I've little experience of London driving in recent years but from some of the videos I've seen posted here some of the cyclists seem to have very little concept of risk.

Now I know most of the folks on here are probably drivers/motorcyclists as well as cyclists but I do wonder how many of the London cyclists that are KSI'd do have a vehicle licence. Suspect it's not recorded.

I'm not asking because I think cyclists should have compulsory training; I'm asking because London does seem a different world for transport than most UK cities. Without the benefit of some form of training how do people pick up the basics of road safety?

This has come up a lot on this thread, but you can't get round the fact that every study puts the driver at sole fault in 75%-90% of incidents.

So it's not generally the cyclists who need schooling in road safety.
If you could make every cyclist behave perfectly it wouldn't have a very large impact on cyclist KSIs.
Surely we should be concentrating the efforts on the group that brings the most danger to the situation, and is more often at fault?

In other words its all the vehicle driver's 'fault' and cyclists are doing just fine.
Whenever anyone goes on the road on a bike or in a vehicle they are accepting some risk. It is up to them to minimise the risk by acting responsibly and not placing the responsibility solely on others for their safety.

[v12Legs]

swisstoni said:

v12Legs said:

GadgeS3C said:

I've little experience of London driving in recent years but from some of the videos I've seen posted here some of the cyclists seem to have very little concept of risk.

Now I know most of the folks on here are probably drivers/motorcyclists as well as cyclists but I do wonder how many of the London cyclists that are KSI'd do have a vehicle licence. Suspect it's not recorded.

I'm not asking because I think cyclists should have compulsory training; I'm asking because London does seem a different world for transport than most UK cities. Without the benefit of some form of training how do people pick up the basics of road safety?

This has come up a lot on this thread, but you can't get round the fact that every study puts the driver at sole fault in 75%-90% of incidents.

So it's not generally the cyclists who need schooling in road safety.
If you could make every cyclist behave perfectly it wouldn't have a very large impact on cyclist KSIs.
Surely we should be concentrating the efforts on the group that brings the most danger to the situation, and is more often at fault?

In other words its all the vehicle driver's 'fault' and cyclists are doing just fine.
Whenever anyone goes on the road on a bike or in a vehicle they are accepting some risk. It is up to them to minimise the risk by acting responsibly and not placing the responsibility solely on others for their safety.

No, not all the vehicle driver's fault, just in 75%-90% of cases

allergictocheese said:

If cyclists learned not to sit to the nearside of vehicles (particularly lorries) on approach to nearside junctions, that would save a lot of lives.

How many of these incidents were caused by the cyclist going up the inside, and how many were left hooks, where the driver overtook and turned left across the cyclist?

Without knowing that, you can't possibly say how many lives changing the cyclist's behaviour would save as opposed to changing the driver's behaviour.

[hornetrider]

tannhauser said:

Here is a tribute to the cyclist who sadly lost her life:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/tributes-to-...

I actually had the pleasure of meeting Stephanie a couple of times through friends. I couldn't believe it when I learnt who it was on my Facebook feed that evening; after having read about it first on here... You read these awful things, that happen at the other end of the country; and never think for one moment you'll actually know the person in question.

Such a tragic loss. All the more sad when you consider her sister too (mentioned in the tribute)...

Very sad indeed and terrible for their family to lose two siblings in the prime of their lives so close to each other.

RIP.

[saaby93]

v12Legs said:

This has come up a lot on this thread, but you can't get round the fact that every study puts the driver at sole fault in 75%-90% of incidents.

Someone got to ask for source of this

[allergictocheese]

v12Legs said:

How many of these incidents were caused by the cyclist going up the inside, and how many were left hooks, where the driver overtook and turned left across the cyclist?

Without knowing that, you can't possibly say how many lives changing the cyclist's behaviour would save as opposed to changing the driver's behaviour.

If both groups were aware of and reacted appropriately to the risk, it would only need one of them to behave appropriately to avoid these types of accidents. They only occur because both groups fail to do so.

Yes, drivers should take care, particularly due to their causative potency being so much greater than that of a cyclist, however cyclists should also be aware and do their best to spot and avoid specific risks.

Trying to claim one side should rely on the other for their personal safety is diversionary and unrealistic.

[anonymous-user]

saaby93 said:

Someone got to ask for source of this

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20090417002224/http:/www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/research/rsrr/theme1/ppr445.pdf

In collisions involving a bicycle and another vehicle, the driver’s having ‘failed to look properly’ was reported to be a key contributory factor for drivers and riders at junctions (reported in almost 60% of serious collisions at junctions).

Now thats just "failing to look properly" and "seriouis collisions at junctions" and wont include other key contributing factors, road types etc so its fair to assume that 75% is a good minimum...

[GadgeS3C]

v12Legs said:

GadgeS3C said:

I've little experience of London driving in recent years but from some of the videos I've seen posted here some of the cyclists seem to have very little concept of risk.

Now I know most of the folks on here are probably drivers/motorcyclists as well as cyclists but I do wonder how many of the London cyclists that are KSI'd do have a vehicle licence. Suspect it's not recorded.

I'm not asking because I think cyclists should have compulsory training; I'm asking because London does seem a different world for transport than most UK cities. Without the benefit of some form of training how do people pick up the basics of road safety?

This has come up a lot on this thread, but you can't get round the fact that every study puts the driver at sole fault in 75%-90% of incidents.

So it's not generally the cyclists who need schooling in road safety.
If you could make every cyclist behave perfectly it wouldn't have a very large impact on cyclist KSIs.
Surely we should be concentrating the efforts on the group that brings the most danger to the situation, and is more often at fault?

As a cyclist and motorcyclist (and driver)I'm well aware of it often being the drivers fault. Just because in an accident it was "legally" the other guys fault doesn't mean you couldn't have avoided it. I save other people from having an accident with me regularly; I doubt many of them even notice. The point of my question was to better understand if there is a particularly issue in London, where, perhaps there is a higher percentage of cyclists with no road use training.

Yes, I totally agree that the standard of driving needs to be improved. More importantly, people's attitude to driving and other road users needs improvement. To do those things is hard and there seems little appetite to do it. I think that's wrong but I have little influence to change it. I can improve my chances by improving my standard of driving/cycling/motorcycling; I shouldn't have to, but it's better than bleeding.

[SuperVM]

allergictocheese said:

If both groups were aware of and reacted appropriately to the risk, it would only need one of them to behave appropriately to avoid these types of accidents. They only occur because both groups fail to do so.

Yes, drivers should take care, particularly due to their causative potency being so much greater than that of a cyclist, however cyclists should also be aware and do their best to spot and avoid specific risks.

Trying to claim one side should rely on the other for their personal safety is diversionary and unrealistic.

I agree with this point. I cycle to the station and back during the week and I think my car history and current fleet would indicate I very much like cars. Drivers should indeed take care, as pretty much any car could easily kill a cyclist; however, if the knowledge of this isn't sufficient to motivate a cyclist to cycle as defensively as possible, it is a bit concerning. I think there's possibly a naivety on the part of cyclists, assuming motorists will give way and also be aware of their presence and I also think there's a naivety on the part of motorists to assume cyclists are going to put themselves out of harms way and also to expect particular manoeuvres from motorists. When I'm on my bike I pretty well assume cars haven't spotted me and cycle accordingly. To me, it doesn't matter a great deal whether or not it is right or wrong for a particular driver's behaviour, but instead whether I get home to see the kids. There has been some downright stupid behaviour from some drivers on my route (though most are very good) and I think if I'd been more righteous about the situation I'd at least have been knocked off my bike.

[Chicane-UK]

tannhauser said:

Here is a tribute to the cyclist who sadly lost her life:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/tributes-to-...

I actually had the pleasure of meeting Stephanie a couple of times through friends. I couldn't believe it when I learnt who it was on my Facebook feed that evening; after having read about it first on here... You read these awful things, that happen at the other end of the country; and never think for one moment you'll actually know the person in question.

Such a tragic loss. All the more sad when you consider her sister too (mentioned in the tribute)...

How extremely sad. Her family must be absolutely devastated