Another cyclist dies in London
Discussion
cb1965 said:
WinstonWolf said:
If you were *really* clever you'd be able to use smilies too... 
Oh I can, just prefer old school and anyway I wouldn't want to confuse you although I suspect asking you what day of the week it is would be enough to do that!Idiots are idiots whatever they happen to be driving or riding. The t
t who cuts you up in his car, he's also a piss poor cyclist.I've yet to meet a cyclist on PH who isn't also a driver...
cb1965 said:
WinstonWolf said:
You probably also laugh at your own farts.
No, just at dumb***es that can't work out why all cyclists on a forum about cars are likely to also be drivers!!!Edited by cb1965 on Monday 27th February 11:22
djstevec said:
And another this morning at Lambeth Bridge/Millbank. 
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/woman-cyclis...
Tipper driver found not guilty of causing death by careless driving.http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/woman-cyclis...
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/lorry-driver...
Edited by djstevec on Monday 27th February 12:47
cb1965 said:
Not really any worse than Manchester bar the impatience at times which given how the roads are set up is no surprise. That said I am used to driving in Asia and compared to certain places there anywhere in the UK is positively wonderful in comparison. I often laugh at these cyclists complaining about a lack of room in the UK and think how they would go on in Jakarta for instance.... they'd last about 5 minutes before they were sobbing their poor sensitive little hearts out lol!
That's interesting to me for a couple of reasons, because:1. For a long time now I have considered that the average British car driver can not cope with any challenge, be it weather, traffic, overtaking a slower vehicle in front, or whatever. So the idea that the average British motorist would fare better than cyclists is rather fanciable.
2. If you google Indonesian drivers licence https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-ins...
So, as used to driving in Asia as you may be, do you have a licence or a license for driving there?
djstevec said:
Tipper driver found not guilty of causing death by careless driving.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/lorry-driver...
Glad to hear that; the not using mirrors and not looking properly suggestions are starting to wear a bit thin.http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/lorry-driver...
Edited by djstevec on Monday 27th February 12:47
Digby said:
Glad to hear that; the not using mirrors and not looking properly suggestions are starting to wear a bit thin.
I can't find any information online about what evidence there was that he was looking properly when the lorry he was in charge of crushed another road user - evidently you know a little more. Care to share? It seems to me that either a) he was looking properly and ran her over anyway
b) he wasn't looking properly and ran her over
You seem to be suggesting you have evidence it was option a?
blugnu said:
Digby said:
Glad to hear that; the not using mirrors and not looking properly suggestions are starting to wear a bit thin.
I can't find any information online about what evidence there was that he was looking properly when the lorry he was in charge of crushed another road user - evidently you know a little more. Care to share? It seems to me that either a) he was looking properly and ran her over anyway
b) he wasn't looking properly and ran her over
You seem to be suggesting you have evidence it was option a?
blugnu said:
a) he was looking properly and ran her over anyway
I agree by the looks of things.It's an extremely easy thing to do to lose track of, or not see, riders when they are close to trucks.
Given they said he hadn't paid enough attention to riders or used his mirrors properly, It was nice to hear a not guilty verdict seeing as
those same accusations can be attributed to absolutely any driver, including the most careful.
tuffer said:
Well a Judge and Jury found him not guilty and they have more evidence at their disposal than you so I doubt it was either of the options you suggest above. How about, he did look properly but she decided to ride under the wheels of his lorry.
The jury found him not guilty, not the judge.Let's look at the options
1) Did he see her?
Possible answers - yes and no.
2) Was he in control of the lorry?
Possible answers: yes, no
3) Did the lorry drive over her?
Possible answers: yes, no
Q1 - it seems that this is the main question
Q2 - yes, he was
Q3 - yes, it did
It must be one of the options I posted. Note that he might have not seen her and it might not have been his fault - people often don't realise how much of a blind spot lorries have.
"Luke Healey, who had been cycling behind Gemmill, said he had hung back rather than cycling alongside the truck. He said there was a pinch point at the junction and that the road layout was ‘dodgy’"
More riders like this please and less of the 53 who couldn't manage to get across without incident.
Still, it's far easier to blame road layouts and white paint etc than take some responsibility.
It also mentions the HGV driver had recently been on a cycle awareness course (required by law).
That will be the course I mentioned would make no difference at all if a rider doesn't understand or care about how they progress around HGVs.
Had this rider been forced by law to be on a course, or had they had the common sense of the rider behind, they would still be here.
Yet another utterly pointless and tragic death.
More riders like this please and less of the 53 who couldn't manage to get across without incident.
Still, it's far easier to blame road layouts and white paint etc than take some responsibility.
It also mentions the HGV driver had recently been on a cycle awareness course (required by law).
That will be the course I mentioned would make no difference at all if a rider doesn't understand or care about how they progress around HGVs.
Had this rider been forced by law to be on a course, or had they had the common sense of the rider behind, they would still be here.
Yet another utterly pointless and tragic death.
blugnu said:
The jury found him not guilty, not the judge.
Let's look at the options
1) Did he see her?
Possible answers - yes and no.
2) Was he in control of the lorry?
Possible answers: yes, no
3) Did the lorry drive over her?
Possible answers: yes, no
Q1 - it seems that this is the main question
Q2 - yes, he was
Q3 - yes, it did
It must be one of the options I posted. Note that he might have not seen her and it might not have been his fault - people often don't realise how much of a blind spot lorries have.
1) Yes he did, in the time leading up to the incident, you cannot look in your mirrors permanently.Let's look at the options
1) Did he see her?
Possible answers - yes and no.
2) Was he in control of the lorry?
Possible answers: yes, no
3) Did the lorry drive over her?
Possible answers: yes, no
Q1 - it seems that this is the main question
Q2 - yes, he was
Q3 - yes, it did
It must be one of the options I posted. Note that he might have not seen her and it might not have been his fault - people often don't realise how much of a blind spot lorries have.
2) Yes he was
3) Yes it did because she had decided to put herself in a very dangerous position
You will probably not agree with point 3 but lets look at a similar scenario:
You are driving down a dual carriageway and approaching a roundabout, there is a HGV in the inside lane. You are in the outside lane, do you attempt to go around the roundabout at the same time as the HGV or do you hold back anticipating that the HGV may cut the corner? Personally, if I can get my nose in front and not cause a delay to the HGV I will press on, if the HGV is already entering the roundabout then I will hold back, give them room and then pass after we exit the roundabout. Take that scenario on a bike (I am a cyclist by the way), I would never ever put myself in that sort of danger, I would rather get off and walk down a path attempt to go up the inside of a HGV at a busy crossing. I am also HGV certified (previously cat C but I gave it up) and on my test I paused at a Junction and the instructor asked me why, I pointed out the cyclist who had snuck up the inside in an attempt to kill themselves, the Instructor had not seen them.
But hey, it's always someone else's fault right and the cyclist had every right to ride their bike down that road, I bet given her time again she would take a different course of action.
tuffer said:
But hey, it's always someone else's fault right and the cyclist had every right to ride their bike down that road, I bet given her time again she would take a different course of action.
That's rather disingenuous. I'd rather expect all of the parties involved would act differently.Digby said:
"Luke Healey, who had been cycling behind Gemmill, said he had hung back rather than cycling alongside the truck. He said there was a pinch point at the junction and that the road layout was ‘dodgy’"
More riders like this please and less of the 53 who couldn't manage to get across without incident.
Still, it's far easier to blame road layouts and white paint etc than take some responsibility.
It also mentions the HGV driver had recently been on a cycle awareness course (required by law).
That will be the course I mentioned would make no difference at all if a rider doesn't understand or care about how they progress around HGVs.
Had this rider been forced by law to be on a course, or had they had the common sense of the rider behind, they would still be here.
Yet another utterly pointless and tragic death.
It does sound like the cyclist could have cycled more defensively and not put herself in a place of danger.More riders like this please and less of the 53 who couldn't manage to get across without incident.
Still, it's far easier to blame road layouts and white paint etc than take some responsibility.
It also mentions the HGV driver had recently been on a cycle awareness course (required by law).
That will be the course I mentioned would make no difference at all if a rider doesn't understand or care about how they progress around HGVs.
Had this rider been forced by law to be on a course, or had they had the common sense of the rider behind, they would still be here.
Yet another utterly pointless and tragic death.
With respect to the other 53, we have no idea of the circumstances so stating that they were all at fault is obviously wrong.
Just very tragic whenever someone dies in those circumstances irrespective of what blame lies with who.
blugnu said:
I'd rather expect all of the parties involved would act differently.
More training for the driver and more mirrors would be my suggestion. That's the way it usually goes.Forget trying to make riders think like the chap who didn't ride down the inside of this truck.
Make HGV drivers have to ride bikes by law so they can get a riders perspective, but leave the riders alone to do as they wish.
It's a brilliant plan.
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