Another cyclist dies in London

[danllama]

I think we should all, as in the entire population, accept that some people on bikes will die every year on British roads, and there's not really much we can do to stop that, beyond what we're already doing.

Ultimately, it's personal responsibility that will keep you alive. Your safety is not somebody else's responsibility.

Saying that, i'm going to start cycling to work again this month after a two year hiatus. 13 miles from home to work in Bermondsey. Really looking forward to it!

[blugnu]

[quote=danllama]I think we should all, as in the entire population, accept that some people on bikes will die every year on British roads, and there's not really much we can do to stop that, beyond what we're already doing./quote]

Why would we do that when clearly the infrastructure could be massively improved?

[DoubleD]

heebeegeetee said:

Mr Snrub said:

Thanks for proving my point by immediately turning it back to all the things drivers do wrong. It can't be the cyclists fault, they can't be expected to know about blind spots.

Do you realistically expect that all cyclists will know about blind spots, indeed do you think most people know that you can lawfully use a vehicle of which a driver can not see clearly out of?

Do you think then that some training for all who ride or drive on the road would help?

[Digby]

Moonhawk said:

Is it not possible to acknowledge that some cyclists behave irresponsibly and dangerously and try to address that issue (and save lives in the process) - without having to point out the fact that some drivers behave irresponsibly and dangerously too.

Rarely.

If you love your bike or riding / riders in general, for some, it would appear it has become their duty to try and belittle anyone who is concerned about rider safety.

Look at the tactics often used on here. They do cyclists no favours at all.

It's very bizarre and demonstrates a wolf pack mentality.

Do you remember the days when people would say "Thank you for caring" and didn't feel the need to get so emotional and vindictive?

[DoubleD]

blugnu said:

danllama said:

I think we should all, as in the entire population, accept that some people on bikes will die every year on British roads, and there's not really much we can do to stop that, beyond what we're already doing./quote]

Why would we do that when clearly the infrastructure could be massively improved?

Fantastic idea.....whos going to pay for it? There isnt even enough money to fill in potholes.

[anonymous-user]

blugnu said:

But having said that you are suggesting it's a significant number.

Because it is and to keep denying it or pretending it isn't so is just being divisive. Cyclists are the most vulnerable road users and common sense says they should take precautions becuase of that. When I cycle that is exactly what I do and I have never had a single incident worthy of posting on one of these vigilante YT channels. Stop pretending that everyone and everything else is to blame and take responsibility for your own safety would be the best bit of advice I could give to any cyclist. Works for me!

[Mave]

Moonhawk said:

Is it not possible to acknowledge that some cyclists behave irresponsibly and dangerously and try to address that issue (and save lives in the process) - without having to point out the fact that some drivers behave irresponsibly and dangerously too.

Yes it is possible, but why would you focus on cyclists without acknowledging that motorists also behave irresponsibly and dangerously and try to address that issue as well?

[Mave]

danllama said:

Ultimately, it's personal responsibility that will keep you alive. Your safety is not somebody else's responsibility.

I disagree. It's a shared responsibility.

[Mave]

Digby said:

Well, given most of the deaths relate to HGVs in these topics, should we start by listing what is now required of an HGV and its driver in relation to cycle safety and then list what is required of a rider?

That would be fair, wouldn't it?

Seeing as the majority of posters on this thread are neither cyclists nor HGV drivers, I think we should be discussing all road users.

[heebeegeetee]

Mr Snrub said:

You're always very quick to remind us that 80% of them hold a driving licence, so yes they should.

As a former hgv driver I can tell you that car drivers drive in hgv blind spots all the time, and I really mean that, *all* the time.

You can barely do a motorway journey these days without seeing a car that's come a cropper with an lhd hgv.

[heebeegeetee]

cb1965 said:

1. Because it is and to keep denying it or pretending it isn't so is just being divisive.

2. Cyclists are the most vulnerable road users and common sense says they should take precautions becuase of that.

3. When I cycle that is exactly what I do and I have never had a single incident worthy of posting on one of these vigilante YT channels.

4.Stop pretending that everyone and everything else is to blame and take responsibility for your own safety would be the best bit of advice I could give to any cyclist. Works for me!

1. No it isn't, not in any way measurable. Someone has already posted a link that appears to show that London cycling casualty rates are below the national average, and the national average isn't high.

2. Wrong yet again. The highway code tells you that pedestrians are the most vulnerable road user, although motor cycling casualty rates are off the scale. Out of four key road user groups - pedestrians, cyclists, motor cyclists and vehicle occupants, cyclists come second, so far from the most vulnerable road user. Them there's the exercise element - on average cyclists live longer than non cyclists.https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=cyclists+live+longer+than+non+cyclists&*

What the debate is about is why hgvs make up 4% of the traffic but are involved in 50% of cycling fatalities (or thereabouts) in London.

3. I can say exactly the same about car drivers. Youtube is chock full of videos of motorists getting into trouble, yet I've never appeared on one.

4. And it applies to absolutely everybody. Works for me as a driver too.

Edited by heebeegeetee on Wednesday 1st March 18:58

[Moonhawk]

blugnu said:

But having said that you are suggesting it's a significant number.

Define 'significant'

And if that's what you infer from what I wrote - then that's on you - all I stated was that in my experience they are not rare or isolated incidents.

Go an stand near any pedestrian crossing in central London and within a couple of minutes you will likely observe one or more cyclists running a stagnant red light or trying to thread between crossing pedestrians.

[Digby]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

But many riders will tell you it's pointless. Many will get angry!

Do you also think it utterly ridiculous that HGV drivers have to take cycle awareness courses and actually have to ride bikes to protect riders, yet the riders they are trying to protect have to do nothing?

[DoubleD]

DoubleD said:

heebeegeetee said:

Mr Snrub said:

Thanks for proving my point by immediately turning it back to all the things drivers do wrong. It can't be the cyclists fault, they can't be expected to know about blind spots.

Do you realistically expect that all cyclists will know about blind spots, indeed do you think most people know that you can lawfully use a vehicle of which a driver can not see clearly out of?

Do you think then that some training for all who ride or drive on the road would help?

So heebeegeetee what do you think?

[danllama]

blugnu said:

danllama said:

I think we should all, as in the entire population, accept that some people on bikes will die every year on British roads, and there's not really much we can do to stop that, beyond what we're already doing

Why would we do that when clearly the infrastructure could be massively improved?

Do you believe it can be improved enough to reduce the death toll from what it currently is? I don't. I think its amazing how few deaths there are.

Edited by danllama on Wednesday 1st March 20:16

[danllama]

Mave said:

danllama said:

Ultimately, it's personal responsibility that will keep you alive. Your safety is not somebody else's responsibility.

I disagree. It's a shared responsibility.

You're free to disagree but it won't stop you going under a truck.

[Moonhawk]

Mave said:

Yes it is possible, but why would you focus on cyclists without acknowledging that motorists also behave irresponsibly and dangerously and try to address that issue as well?

That issue is being addressed though.

We have mandatory driver training and testing, more so for professional drivers. We have mandatory vehicle registration, insurance and MOTs.

We have ANPR, red light cameras, yellow box junction cameras, bus lane cameras, CCTV, speed cameras, parking wardens and trafpol all of which can identify the car and possibly the driver too and which can be used to encourage good behaviour (or punish bad).

We have traffic calming measures which mostly affect motorised vehicles.

We have new rules coming into force all the time to punish drivers for bad behavior (e.g. the new harsher rules for people who use mobile phones whilst in control of their vehicle.)

Why do you think poor behavior on the part of the motorist isn't being addressed? What is being done to address the behavior of cyclists?

Edited by Moonhawk on Wednesday 1st March 19:29

[Digby]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Not making it up, no.

I had to cover a classroom based cycle awareness course as one of the modules now required by law to allow me to keep my licence. It matters not how long you have held that licence, or other training you may have had (not forgetting you will have already had to pass the driving test).

And now, on March 11th, all our drivers and even those who rarely drive and are 95% warehouse based, all have to ride cycles on the road as part of another module required by law.

Training, more training and yet more training accompanied by various vehicle additions and alterations all to protect cyclists.

Almost none of which will make a great deal of difference to the survival chances of most of the riders on display in the earlier video.

[anonymous-user]

heebeegeetee said:

cb1965 said:

1. Because it is and to keep denying it or pretending it isn't so is just being divisive.

2. Cyclists are the most vulnerable road users and common sense says they should take precautions becuase of that.

3. When I cycle that is exactly what I do and I have never had a single incident worthy of posting on one of these vigilante YT channels.

4.Stop pretending that everyone and everything else is to blame and take responsibility for your own safety would be the best bit of advice I could give to any cyclist. Works for me!

1. No it isn't, not in any way measurable. Someone has already posted a link that appears to show that London cycling casualty rates are below the national average, and the national average isn't high.

Probably because drivers of other vehicles i.e. those that have had training are very good at avoiding them and in London they get a lot more practice

heebeegeetee said:

2. Wrong yet again. The highway code tells you that pedestrians are the most vulnerable road user, although motor cycling casualty rates are off the scale. Out of four key road user groups - pedestrians, cyclists, motor cyclists and vehicle occupants, cyclists come second, so far from the most vulnerable road user. Them there's the exercise element - on average cyclists live longer than non cyclists.https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=cyclists+live+longer+than+non+cyclists&*

I was assuming we would discount pedestrians as really they are not road users in the sense being discussed here, but of course assuming anything on here is a massive mistake and I should have learned that by now. And if cyclists are living longer on average stop bleating about the odd death then!

heebeegeetee said:

What the debate is about is why hgvs make up 4% of the traffic but are involved in 50% of cycling fatalities (or thereabouts) in London

Er.. because they are bigger and heavier and have more blind spots than other vehicles and because of this stupid cyclists that ride up the inside of them will always be more likely to die than if they do the same thing with a car for instance.

heebeegeetee said:

3. I can say exactly the same about car drivers. Youtube is chock full of videos of motorists getting into trouble, yet I've never appeared on one.

Except that as a cyclist being irresponsible is a lot more likely to result in injury than a car driver who may just get a dented car so you would think that would make them less reliant on everyone else for their safety and more self reliant, yet there is a good proportion of them who seem to think that everyone else should kowtow to their behaviour.

heebeegeetee said:

4. And it applies to absolutely everybody. Works for me as a driver too.

Yes, me too. Finally something we agree on!

[Mave]

danllama said:

Mave said:

danllama said:

Ultimately, it's personal responsibility that will keep you alive. Your safety is not somebody else's responsibility.

I disagree. It's a shared responsibility.

You're free to disagree but it won't stop you going under a truck.

And in some cases neither will personal responsibility.