Another cyclist dies in London
Discussion
walm said:
Finlandia said:
Challo said:
saaby93 said:
I wish there was more feedback about what happened. I know some will say it's disrepectful to those who are no longer here, but surely it shows great respect to find out what went wrong.
In most of these cases the driver hasnt been arrested, so presumably the cyclist has put themselves in an untenable position. Why can't we find out how they ended up there and have it published so that cyclists and drivers are more aware?
I agree with this. Surely there must be a report for all accidents which have witness statements so we can actually see the root causes, and actually learn from that. In most of these cases the driver hasnt been arrested, so presumably the cyclist has put themselves in an untenable position. Why can't we find out how they ended up there and have it published so that cyclists and drivers are more aware?
Observing how some cyclists act in traffic, I'm surprised there aren't more serious injuries and deaths.
2. According to this, for adults, drivers are solely responsible in cyclist collisions 60%-75% of the time. http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/1...
3. I ran the numbers for the 14 killed cyclists in London in 2014. For 12 of them I could find info. The driver was arrested in 3 cases (and so far charged in 2 of those). The driver appears very clearly to be at fault in three of them but not enough evidence to arrest and charge (e.g. driver ran into back of cycle). The cyclists appear at fault in 4 of them and two of them are ongoing enquiries.
walm said:
1. Presuming the cyclist is at fault because a driver hasn't been arrested is poor. Often there just isn't enough evidence to know what happened.
2. According to this, for adults, drivers are solely responsible in cyclist collisions 60%-75% of the time. http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/1...
3. I ran the numbers for the 14 killed cyclists in London in 2014. For 12 of them I could find info. The driver was arrested in 3 cases (and so far charged in 2 of those). The driver appears very clearly to be at fault in three of them but not enough evidence to arrest and charge (e.g. driver ran into back of cycle). The cyclists appear at fault in 4 of them and two of them are ongoing enquiries.
I'm not really presuming anything, but the numbers for Sweden are very different, I posted them in some thread earlier, if I'm not mistaken too much I think it was 80% of bike accidents (with severe injury/hospital treatment) are single accidents, 8% are bike on bike. 2. According to this, for adults, drivers are solely responsible in cyclist collisions 60%-75% of the time. http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/1...
3. I ran the numbers for the 14 killed cyclists in London in 2014. For 12 of them I could find info. The driver was arrested in 3 cases (and so far charged in 2 of those). The driver appears very clearly to be at fault in three of them but not enough evidence to arrest and charge (e.g. driver ran into back of cycle). The cyclists appear at fault in 4 of them and two of them are ongoing enquiries.
I must say, my observations here in Sweden supports the statistics.
George111 said:
walm said:
Finlandia said:
Challo said:
saaby93 said:
I wish there was more feedback about what happened. I know some will say it's disrepectful to those who are no longer here, but surely it shows great respect to find out what went wrong.
In most of these cases the driver hasnt been arrested, so presumably the cyclist has put themselves in an untenable position. Why can't we find out how they ended up there and have it published so that cyclists and drivers are more aware?
I agree with this. Surely there must be a report for all accidents which have witness statements so we can actually see the root causes, and actually learn from that. In most of these cases the driver hasnt been arrested, so presumably the cyclist has put themselves in an untenable position. Why can't we find out how they ended up there and have it published so that cyclists and drivers are more aware?
Observing how some cyclists act in traffic, I'm surprised there aren't more serious injuries and deaths.
2. According to this, for adults, drivers are solely responsible in cyclist collisions 60%-75% of the time. http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/1...
3. I ran the numbers for the 14 killed cyclists in London in 2014. For 12 of them I could find info. The driver was arrested in 3 cases (and so far charged in 2 of those). The driver appears very clearly to be at fault in three of them but not enough evidence to arrest and charge (e.g. driver ran into back of cycle). The cyclists appear at fault in 4 of them and two of them are ongoing enquiries.
Finlandia said:
I'm not really presuming anything, but the numbers for Sweden are very different, I posted them in some thread earlier, if I'm not mistaken too much I think it was 80% of bike accidents (with severe injury/hospital treatment) are single accidents, 8% are bike on bike.
I must say, my observations here in Sweden supports the statistics.
Saaby was doing the presuming, not you, it was meant to reply to both of you.I must say, my observations here in Sweden supports the statistics.
I am trying to make the point that the anti-cyclist brigade continue to suggest that when cyclists collide with vehicles it is USUALLY the cyclists fault.
The report I linked to, directly contradicts that.
Your Swedish numbers don't tell us one way or another because in a single bike accident there is no driver involved, obviously. Likewise bike on bike.
yonex said:
No. It just means that people who drive big things need to pay more attention and that cycling infrastructure needs to be improved. Amazing that on a motoring forum people have such a low skill set they consider cyclists a problem to navigate. As for tax, that'll be taken up by the motorist.
And not even a suggestion that cyclists should try to look out for their own safety. Obviously it has to be someone else's fault, cyclists are completely blameless and can do no wrong.walm said:
Saaby was doing the presuming, not you, it was meant to reply to both of you.
I am trying to make the point that the anti-cyclist brigade continue to suggest that when cyclists collide with vehicles it is USUALLY the cyclists fault.
The report I linked to, directly contradicts that.
Your Swedish numbers don't tell us one way or another because in a single bike accident there is no driver involved, obviously. Likewise bike on bike.
Well this cyclist wasn't paying too much attention.....I am trying to make the point that the anti-cyclist brigade continue to suggest that when cyclists collide with vehicles it is USUALLY the cyclists fault.
The report I linked to, directly contradicts that.
Your Swedish numbers don't tell us one way or another because in a single bike accident there is no driver involved, obviously. Likewise bike on bike.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o3B601Ndsg
Rangeroverover said:
Does that mean that avery time you buy food, or eat and drink or buy new inner tubes for your bicycles you are prepared to pay a far higher price so that deliveries have to be made by smaller vehicles.
My experience of many, many hundreds of cycle commutes and weekend rides is that supermarket delivery lorries are courteous and safe. It's construction lorries that are the main danger, primarily because of the knuckle-draggers that drive them and the greedy owners who pay by the load. Rangeroverover said:
maybe make bicycles pay to use the roads instead
I already pay to use the road thanks. Council tax, income tax, VAT, SDLT, APD, IPT, NICs etc etc.
walm said:
Finlandia said:
Challo said:
saaby93 said:
I wish there was more feedback about what happened. I know some will say it's disrepectful to those who are no longer here, but surely it shows great respect to find out what went wrong.
In most of these cases the driver hasnt been arrested, so presumably the cyclist has put themselves in an untenable position. Why can't we find out how they ended up there and have it published so that cyclists and drivers are more aware?
I agree with this. Surely there must be a report for all accidents which have witness statements so we can actually see the root causes, and actually learn from that. In most of these cases the driver hasnt been arrested, so presumably the cyclist has put themselves in an untenable position. Why can't we find out how they ended up there and have it published so that cyclists and drivers are more aware?
Observing how some cyclists act in traffic, I'm surprised there aren't more serious injuries and deaths.
2. According to this, for adults, drivers are solely responsible in cyclist collisions 60%-75% of the time. http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/1...
3. I ran the numbers for the 14 killed cyclists in London in 2014. For 12 of them I could find info. The driver was arrested in 3 cases (and so far charged in 2 of those). The driver appears very clearly to be at fault in three of them but not enough evidence to arrest and charge (e.g. driver ran into back of cycle). The cyclists appear at fault in 4 of them and two of them are ongoing enquiries.
It doesnt get us very far looking for fault
Instead lets try to look for what happened and try to learn from it
Mr2Mike said:
And not even a suggestion that cyclists should try to look out for their own safety. Obviously it has to be someone else's fault, cyclists are completely blameless and can do no wrong.
Of course, that's exactly what I said..
It doesn't take a genius to see why better infrastructure and driver training would be beneficial to pretty much everyone. Being righteous doesn't help in an accident, especially when you are wearing lycra.
Id don't disagree about the profile of 'muck shifter' tippers drivers or skip drivers too for that matter, but Im reluctant to tar all tipper drivers with the same brush. Tarmac tippers are completely different, in my (extensive) experience.
I believe that the vehicles' design compounds the issue too, with many lacking the nudge bars that single purpose lorries carry (as well as being higher). I had the enormous pleasure of driving to that London and creeping through the West End last week, and I noticed a number of vehicles that I recognised as being dual-purpose types carrying what appeared to be demountable nudge bars, which is a significant step forward.
They wont be required if drivers always look where they need to (not always possible, especially with inexperienced and unaware cyclists all around them) and cyclists never wilfully ride into, or fail to be aware of dangerous situations which develop around them for which they may not be responsible (all points covered there: cycle rider and HGV licence holder). It doesn't seem to happen like this of course, so those nudge bars may make the difference between grazed hands and knees and something unthinkable.
I believe that the vehicles' design compounds the issue too, with many lacking the nudge bars that single purpose lorries carry (as well as being higher). I had the enormous pleasure of driving to that London and creeping through the West End last week, and I noticed a number of vehicles that I recognised as being dual-purpose types carrying what appeared to be demountable nudge bars, which is a significant step forward.
They wont be required if drivers always look where they need to (not always possible, especially with inexperienced and unaware cyclists all around them) and cyclists never wilfully ride into, or fail to be aware of dangerous situations which develop around them for which they may not be responsible (all points covered there: cycle rider and HGV licence holder). It doesn't seem to happen like this of course, so those nudge bars may make the difference between grazed hands and knees and something unthinkable.
walm said:
Your Swedish numbers don't tell us one way or another because in a single bike accident there is no driver involved, obviously. Likewise bike on bike.
True, just that if 9 out of 10 bike accidents only involve cyclists, then maybe some sort of risk education or something should be put in.There are 3,000 bike accidents a year in Sweden which leads to a 24h or longer hospitalization, that is a very big number.
saaby93 said:
I deliberately didn't use the word fault in my post
It doesnt get us very far looking for fault
Instead lets try to look for what happened and try to learn from it
But without knowing who did what wrong, how are we to learn?It doesnt get us very far looking for fault
Instead lets try to look for what happened and try to learn from it
Finlandia said:
But without knowing who did what wrong, how are we to learn?
what we want to know is who did what (rather than looking for who did what wrong) and what it led to.There's no need to look for that word that earns a stoning
All it does is cloud thinking - put it to the back of mind
And we're talking about London here.
I'm sure Sweden's a very nice place with its own safety issues
Lets not try to say because there have been umpty thousand cycling accidents in Sweden the thing to do in London is buy some Fjords ( or is that Norway)
Edited by saaby93 on Friday 29th May 17:20
saaby93 said:
Finlandia said:
But without knowing who did what wrong, how are we to learn?
what we want to know is who did what (rather than looking for who did what wrong) and what it led to.There's no need to look for that word that earns a stoning
All it does is cloud thinking - put it to the back of mind
Finlandia said:
I'm more old fashioned, I prefer to look at what was done wrong, and learning from the mistake
The trouble with that philosphy is that neither party may have felt they've made a mistake or done anything wrong.They may have both done what they thought was appropriate in the circumstances.
If you want to make things safer you have to look at what happened and what led up to it
It needs an open mind
The standard of driving generally in the UK is a joke, and there's little or no enforcement of traffic law. British drivers take it for granted that they can break the law at will. Every day I see lots of drivers speeding, talking on mobiles, not indicating, tailgating, illegal parking, etc, etc. all around me while I am cycling to work.
I spend as much time watching my back as looking in front to try to anticipate people overtaking in stupid places, passing too close, etc.
Even where drivers are aware of cyclists many act as though we are invisible as they are fully conscious of the fact that they are highly unlikely to be caught for hitting a cyclist, let alone receive any significant prosecution.
As Britain becomes increasingly overpopulated and people become ever more selfish and aggressive cycling just becomes more dangerous and unpleasant every year.
Even in the smallish town where I live, most of the direct routes around town are essentially uncyclable thanks to heavy traffic, speeding drivers and roads which are dangerously narrowed by parked cars and so-called traffic calming measures. What used to be quiet roads to ride on have become sat nav shortcuts for those trying to avoid congestion elsewhere, leaving nowhere safe to ride.
These are bleak times for cycling in Britain and I can see a day when we are eventually forced off the roads altogether by heavy traffic and intolerant drivers.
I spend as much time watching my back as looking in front to try to anticipate people overtaking in stupid places, passing too close, etc.
Even where drivers are aware of cyclists many act as though we are invisible as they are fully conscious of the fact that they are highly unlikely to be caught for hitting a cyclist, let alone receive any significant prosecution.
As Britain becomes increasingly overpopulated and people become ever more selfish and aggressive cycling just becomes more dangerous and unpleasant every year.
Even in the smallish town where I live, most of the direct routes around town are essentially uncyclable thanks to heavy traffic, speeding drivers and roads which are dangerously narrowed by parked cars and so-called traffic calming measures. What used to be quiet roads to ride on have become sat nav shortcuts for those trying to avoid congestion elsewhere, leaving nowhere safe to ride.
These are bleak times for cycling in Britain and I can see a day when we are eventually forced off the roads altogether by heavy traffic and intolerant drivers.
saaby93 said:
Finlandia said:
I'm more old fashioned, I prefer to look at what was done wrong, and learning from the mistake
The trouble with that philosphy is that neither party may have felt they've made a mistake or done anything wrong.They may have both done what they thought was appropriate in the circumstances.
If you want to make things safer you have to look at what happened and what led up to it
It needs an open mind
Did I mention that someone did, or something went wrong?
Finlandia said:
I'm more old fashioned, I prefer to look at what was done wrong, and learning from the mistake
What was wrong is that a few kilos of meat on a spindly metal thing was mixed with tonnes of solid metal without realising they were never going to win.The solution to that isn't unobvious.
BGarside said:
The standard of driving generally in the UK is a joke, and there's little or no enforcement of traffic law. British drivers take it for granted that they can break the law at will. Every day I see lots of drivers speeding, talking on mobiles, not indicating, tailgating, illegal parking, etc, etc. all around me while I am cycling to work.
I spend as much time watching my back as looking in front to try to anticipate people overtaking in stupid places, passing too close, etc.
Even where drivers are aware of cyclists many act as though we are invisible as they are fully conscious of the fact that they are highly unlikely to be caught for hitting a cyclist, let alone receive any significant prosecution.
As Britain becomes increasingly overpopulated and people become ever more selfish and aggressive cycling just becomes more dangerous and unpleasant every year.
Even in the smallish town where I live, most of the direct routes around town are essentially uncyclable thanks to heavy traffic, speeding drivers and roads which are dangerously narrowed by parked cars and so-called traffic calming measures. What used to be quiet roads to ride on have become sat nav shortcuts for those trying to avoid congestion elsewhere, leaving nowhere safe to ride.
These are bleak times for cycling in Britain and I can see a day when we are eventually forced off the roads altogether by heavy traffic and intolerant drivers.
Yet knowing this, you still cycle every day to work? I spend as much time watching my back as looking in front to try to anticipate people overtaking in stupid places, passing too close, etc.
Even where drivers are aware of cyclists many act as though we are invisible as they are fully conscious of the fact that they are highly unlikely to be caught for hitting a cyclist, let alone receive any significant prosecution.
As Britain becomes increasingly overpopulated and people become ever more selfish and aggressive cycling just becomes more dangerous and unpleasant every year.
Even in the smallish town where I live, most of the direct routes around town are essentially uncyclable thanks to heavy traffic, speeding drivers and roads which are dangerously narrowed by parked cars and so-called traffic calming measures. What used to be quiet roads to ride on have become sat nav shortcuts for those trying to avoid congestion elsewhere, leaving nowhere safe to ride.
These are bleak times for cycling in Britain and I can see a day when we are eventually forced off the roads altogether by heavy traffic and intolerant drivers.
All it takes is the usual dopey bint in a 4x4 to do something moronic and you're maimed for life. The risk is way too high.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff