RE: Ferrari 458 Spider: Review
Discussion
toppstuff said:
neil1jnr said:
mwstewart said:
toppstuff said:
I have been to Woking and Maranello.
The "bella machina / forza ferrari / Tifosi with a cherry on top / check out the branded aftershave / passion and soul" guff about Ferrari still makes me whinge.
It may be alright for my place on the shores of Lake Como ( I wish) but in the UK you just look like a berk IMO.
McLaren has more of a " don't make a fuss and just crack on" kind of image that I find much more comfortable.
Sod the image! It's about the massive smile on your face when you drive the thing!The "bella machina / forza ferrari / Tifosi with a cherry on top / check out the branded aftershave / passion and soul" guff about Ferrari still makes me whinge.
It may be alright for my place on the shores of Lake Como ( I wish) but in the UK you just look like a berk IMO.
McLaren has more of a " don't make a fuss and just crack on" kind of image that I find much more comfortable.
Lets not pretend that the appeal of a Ferrari to some people, is because it IS a Ferrari. For other people ( me included ) "Ferrari-ness" is a massive disincentive.
Let's not pretend that there are d*ckheads driving Porsches. Does that mean you will not buy a Porsche either?
Basing a judgment on 'what others drive' is preposterous.
toppstuff said:
If that is your argument, then buy a Caterham.
Lets not pretend that the appeal of a Ferrari to some people, is because it IS a Ferrari. For other people ( me included ) "Ferrari-ness" is a massive disincentive.
Why? None of the Caterham engines come remotely close to a Ferrari masterpiece, and I wouldn't want to tour Europe with my g/f in a little Caterham.Lets not pretend that the appeal of a Ferrari to some people, is because it IS a Ferrari. For other people ( me included ) "Ferrari-ness" is a massive disincentive.
I can't really identify with the last point.
These cars ably demonstrate exactly where the market is.
In other words, the people buying the cars are not the same ones who sit at their keyboards and fret endlessly about Nurburgring lap times, absolute bhp and other statistics which have absolutely nothing to do with owning a sportscar for the road in the modern world.
In other words, the people buying the cars are not the same ones who sit at their keyboards and fret endlessly about Nurburgring lap times, absolute bhp and other statistics which have absolutely nothing to do with owning a sportscar for the road in the modern world.
As a personal opinion, I think McLaren approaches the design of supercars as I would do it.
Like "ok, what does a supercar need? heaps of power, design and the capacity to go faster than anyone. So we will try to do it better than anyone: carbon tub, super powerful turbo v8, everything is designed to be faster.. etc."
Really, I like their approach, is rational and logic.
But I would buy the ferrari. Every. f
king. Time. I think the point is, at this price tag, the head is not deciding what to buy anymore. Come on, if I wanted a stupidly fast machine I could buy a gtr for half the price...
Ferrari sells heritage and all those bullst to us, pistonheads. To the rest of the mortals who are not into cars, they are two kinds of cars: ferrari and the rest. And being a pistonhead unfortunately is absolutely unrelated with wealth, so I suppose most ferrari buyers are just buying social status, get-laid-machines, more than supercars.
They will probably don't care if the car is turbocharged or not, or if they have 3 cylinders or 24. They just BUY A FERRARI and that's all. And also that is why I appreciate that Ferrari is making such efforts to keep the NA engines and driving thrills when, let's be honest, they do not fking need to do it.
Like "ok, what does a supercar need? heaps of power, design and the capacity to go faster than anyone. So we will try to do it better than anyone: carbon tub, super powerful turbo v8, everything is designed to be faster.. etc."
Really, I like their approach, is rational and logic.
But I would buy the ferrari. Every. f
king. Time. I think the point is, at this price tag, the head is not deciding what to buy anymore. Come on, if I wanted a stupidly fast machine I could buy a gtr for half the price...Ferrari sells heritage and all those bulls
t to us, pistonheads. To the rest of the mortals who are not into cars, they are two kinds of cars: ferrari and the rest. And being a pistonhead unfortunately is absolutely unrelated with wealth, so I suppose most ferrari buyers are just buying social status, get-laid-machines, more than supercars.They will probably don't care if the car is turbocharged or not, or if they have 3 cylinders or 24. They just BUY A FERRARI and that's all. And also that is why I appreciate that Ferrari is making such efforts to keep the NA engines and driving thrills when, let's be honest, they do not f
king need to do it.bubney72 said:
A very very easy question to answer, Maranello's Ferrari.
It wins on looks, sound, engineering, driveability and desirability.
McLaren need a ground up redesign of the 650s. It cannot hide it's dated 12C looks, and the Hyundai Coupe facelift has not helped at all. McLaren should get Pininfarina in, or Touring (Aston Martin) to give them an attractive car.
I think you will find this Hyundai Matrix It wins on looks, sound, engineering, driveability and desirability.
McLaren need a ground up redesign of the 650s. It cannot hide it's dated 12C looks, and the Hyundai Coupe facelift has not helped at all. McLaren should get Pininfarina in, or Touring (Aston Martin) to give them an attractive car.
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/h...
was designed by Pininfarina
so I wouldn't let them near Woking, thanks very much. I fear for the 458TDG27 said:
here is a picture then!!
a 458 in the right colour combo IMHO
a 458 in the right colour combo IMHO
Aaaargh! No my eyes... dark rims 
The 458 is a bit more theatrical compared to the McLaren's workmanlike technical efficiency comes first approach, the logical approach if you are building a race car.
Thing is these aren't race cars and Ferrari who've built a few reasonably successful race cars over the years knows the difference. The market segment for flamboyant supercars is exactly what they cater for, people want unnecessary exuberance, how many "planned" adjustments and upgrades did McLaren perform to address grumblings of perceived lack of soul/character with the initial run of 12Cs?
Pulling up at your local in a 650S people are still likely going to think flashy knob and if they are illogical petrol heads (the sort of people who would buy these cars if they could) they'll appreciate it while in the back of their minds think "but he could have bought a Ferrari...".
If you are buying a supercar you'll look a bit of berk to some people no matter what, so why give a hoot what image the car portrays or how fast it laps the Nurburgring? Are you buying it for you or for how you may look in it?
I'm a mere peasant and can't afford either of these brilliant cars but when I see a 12C I think hmmm... impressive he must've upgraded from a Nissan GTR he must be happy he still has the car with the biggest numbers. When I see a 458 I know the driver may well be a flash knob but awesome car. There is a dark gun metal grey 458 I see occasionally drive past and it doesn't stand out at all if you're not paying attention and it looks fantastic! Discreet and completely over the top at the same time with driver smiling from ear to ear everyday...
Carl_Docklands said:
Ironically, for all the mclaren cars turbo bluster and additional power, the 458 is the more successful race/track car. The 458 seems to just pip it every time due to higher cornering speeds.
Come again......? The 12c is the quicker car on track. That is not really in doubt now. chelme said:
Ha!, and the 650S is like a typical English football player; an average under performer and a loser... 
Last sports day I took part in the WINNER (650S) was the first person across the finishing line. You didn't get extra marks for style, look at Usain Bolt.Edited by chelme on Friday 23 January 12:28
Nowadays you get a medal for bringing up the rear (458)
Fair enough and i agree laptimes are not a measure of how fun a car is. However, it is a subjective thing for (admittedly most) people to prefer the 458 on feel/looks and all that stuff but objectively, with similar driver ability the 12c will be the faster car on track.
P.S some people actually do buy the 12c as they prefer the way it drives vs the 458 and not just due to lap times or not being a Ferrari.....the lack of ferrari-ness and the passion/history guff is merely a bonus...
P.S some people actually do buy the 12c as they prefer the way it drives vs the 458 and not just due to lap times or not being a Ferrari.....the lack of ferrari-ness and the passion/history guff is merely a bonus...
Edited by isaldiri on Saturday 24th January 10:56
The 12C and even more so 650S are hugely impressive and technically more advanced, and the precision of engineering is better than Ferrari, it just didn't give me the buzz, but I can't fault anyone who prefers it.
The 458 felt more special and more of an event, the 650 would probably be a better everyday proposition where I think a 458 could get wearing, but I didn't want an everyday car, if you do an RS Audi or BMW M beat both, I wanted something that gives me a thrill.
They're both epic, it's just personal taste IMHO.
The 458 felt more special and more of an event, the 650 would probably be a better everyday proposition where I think a 458 could get wearing, but I didn't want an everyday car, if you do an RS Audi or BMW M beat both, I wanted something that gives me a thrill.
They're both epic, it's just personal taste IMHO.
I thought the Fifth Gear 458/MP4 comparison was interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTPdfZ8nqc4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTPdfZ8nqc4
SlipStream77 said:
I thought the Fifth Gear 458/MP4 comparison was interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTPdfZ8nqc4
Apples and pears and out of date review. This where McLaren slipped up badly by bringing the MP4 12C "development" car to the market too soon.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTPdfZ8nqc4
However credit where credit is due they listened to the criticism and responded with FOC upgrades for owners to effectively give us the finished product in the 12C. Reviews of the 12C are totally different than the earlier MP4 12C ones as the car was substantially revised for the better.
The 2013 12C was a well sorted car but suffered from the stigma of the poor launch.
McLaren have again listen to customers and reviewers alike and addressed the so called sterile nature of the 12C by dialling in a lump of feel and emotion with the 650S. The objective numbers are there for all to see but TBH the performance and handling improvements were not really necessary. What they have really cracked this time is all the subjective items, like sound, feel, gearchanges, looks. The car has real passion & soul and is fun to drive but not in a N/a V8 way. If all you want is sound fine go 458 or put a baked bean can on your Vauxhall Corsa
The 650S is spot on from the outset and although its hard to believe another major step forward over 12C.
GRBF430F1 said:
SlipStream77 said:
I thought the Fifth Gear 458/MP4 comparison was interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTPdfZ8nqc4
Apples and pears and out of date review. This where McLaren slipped up badly by bringing the MP4 12C "development" car to the market too soon.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTPdfZ8nqc4
However credit where credit is due they listened to the criticism and responded with FOC upgrades for owners to effectively give us the finished product in the 12C. Reviews of the 12C are totally different than the earlier MP4 12C ones as the car was substantially revised for the better.
The 2013 12C was a well sorted car but suffered from the stigma of the poor launch.
McLaren have again listen to customers and reviewers alike and addressed the so called sterile nature of the 12C by dialling in a lump of feel and emotion with the 650S. The objective numbers are there for all to see but TBH the performance and handling improvements were not really necessary. What they have really cracked this time is all the subjective items, like sound, feel, gearchanges, looks. The car has real passion & soul and is fun to drive but not in a N/a V8 way. If all you want is sound fine go 458 or put a baked bean can on your Vauxhall Corsa
The 650S is spot on from the outset and although its hard to believe another major step forward over 12C.
Some people just don't get it. A friend of mine bought one of the runout Gallardos, I had never really wanted one but by chance there was a couple kicking around Silverstone when I was there with Goldtrack last year so I thought I would have a look at em on track. They make an outrageous sound on quick down shifts and braking such as for Copse corner, fairly sure one of them was spitting flames as well. Now I want one too or a car that can do that stuff, just puts a big smile on your face.
My 2p. The Ferrari is an immensely engineered car, very technical but also has elements of traditional ferrari. The 650S is a technically better car, but lacks the elements the ferrari has. As said earlier in the thread the people who buy these don't give 2 hoots about laptimes or performance, they buy the one they want. The Ferrari has the bigger want factor than the Mclaren. What would I have? I honestly don't know, the 650s is everything you need in a supercar but the 458 has a certain something.
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