Is it tine to make undertaking legal?
Discussion
Europa1 said:
"Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake."
MysteryLemon said he was on a "quiet stretch" of the motorway, so I don't think the exemption for passing traffic on his right applies.
Therefore all the replies of "it isn't illegal" aren't completely correct. Most of the time if you do actually pass on the left of someone, you will need to move to lane 2 to pass another car very shortly, and thus you are weaving.MysteryLemon said he was on a "quiet stretch" of the motorway, so I don't think the exemption for passing traffic on his right applies.
If you made under taking legal, middle lane hogging would stop overnight.
Middle lane hogging, like turning right from the left lane of a roundabout, is easier than driving correctly.
If mloc can't get to their junction because of under takers whizzing past, they'd change to living in the driving lane, since that would now be the motorway usage strategy requiring least mental commitment over time.
I'd still be against it though. There's enough rules to run the roads well and it's still a small enough rule book everyone can remember all of it. A little compliance is all that's needed.
Middle lane hogging, like turning right from the left lane of a roundabout, is easier than driving correctly.
If mloc can't get to their junction because of under takers whizzing past, they'd change to living in the driving lane, since that would now be the motorway usage strategy requiring least mental commitment over time.
I'd still be against it though. There's enough rules to run the roads well and it's still a small enough rule book everyone can remember all of it. A little compliance is all that's needed.
Europa1 said:
Uncle John said:
Conscript said:
Every single matrix sign should be programmed to read "Keep Left Unless Overtaking" by default when there are no other messages to display. Much more useful than being told not to drive while tired/not to drink and drive/not to phone and drive/not to murder and drive etc.
Oh, and paint the "keep apart - two chevrons" road markings everywhere. They have them on some parts of the motorway network, but make it a constant reminder and maybe people might start to use it more.
This!Oh, and paint the "keep apart - two chevrons" road markings everywhere. They have them on some parts of the motorway network, but make it a constant reminder and maybe people might start to use it more.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
Why blather on about "Drink Driving/Murdering Driving etc etc" when the single thing that causes most congestion and frustration which leads to accidents, why aren't middle lane imbeciles being addressed?
As I said the amount of space that can be freed up by doing this would be substantial which would benefit us all, no least the government in busines terms as we all know a static or even slow running motorway costs the country a fair few quid.
It's almost as though the powers that be know but do not want to do anything about it for reasons I can't fathom. Perhaps just to spite us in our snivelling worthless lives......
Just seems a no brainer to me! Just get the message out there, and over time, things will improve.
Whereas I genuinely believe that most people sit in the middle lane out of nothing more than ignorance. They just sit there, switch off, and don't think they are doing anything wrong, so their habits never change. Stick a big orange sign up and yes, some will ignore it, but I reckon there might be a fair few people who start to change their driving habits. Maybe "Keep Left Unless Overtaking - £60 Penalty" might wake a few up
Optimistic I know.
Edited by Conscript on Tuesday 27th January 18:29
What would you do in the situation I frequently find myself in, driving to and from work, on the A14 between Ipswich and Bury St Edmunds, which is a two lane dual carriage way.
Driving along the inside lane with nothing in front of me for quite a long way, however there are at least six cars ahead of me on the outside lane (frequently more) and checking the rear view mirror and there are even more cars on the outside line and none on the inside lane. Traffic in the outside lane slows down and moves slower than my speed. Am I entitled to maintain my speed and pass on the inside?
I usually cruise at just below 70 as I find I'm more relaxed when I get to work compared to when I drove faster on the journey, without noticeable change in A-B journey time (I am now a certified BOF).
Driving along the inside lane with nothing in front of me for quite a long way, however there are at least six cars ahead of me on the outside lane (frequently more) and checking the rear view mirror and there are even more cars on the outside line and none on the inside lane. Traffic in the outside lane slows down and moves slower than my speed. Am I entitled to maintain my speed and pass on the inside?
Highway Code rule 268 said:
...In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right...
Does one car become traffic in this situation?I usually cruise at just below 70 as I find I'm more relaxed when I get to work compared to when I drove faster on the journey, without noticeable change in A-B journey time (I am now a certified BOF).
So, there's a lorry in L1 (of 3) doing 59mph.
150 yards behind him, in L2, is a dawdler in a 'your Nan's perm' blue Citroen Berlingo (because they always are) doing 60mph.
There's nothing else around.
If I'm cruising at 70mph in L1 and pass the dawdler to the left, then pull out into L2 (but not L3) to pass the lorry to the right, have I broken the law? Have I "undertaken" unlawfully because I changed lanes having passed to the left?
Simon.
150 yards behind him, in L2, is a dawdler in a 'your Nan's perm' blue Citroen Berlingo (because they always are) doing 60mph.
There's nothing else around.
If I'm cruising at 70mph in L1 and pass the dawdler to the left, then pull out into L2 (but not L3) to pass the lorry to the right, have I broken the law? Have I "undertaken" unlawfully because I changed lanes having passed to the left?
Simon.
Europa1 said:
"Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake."
MysteryLemon said he was on a "quiet stretch" of the motorway, so I don't think the exemption for passing traffic on his right applies.
This is my point. A quiet stretch, as in about 9pm at night, M1 north of the M6 junction (in the middle of nowhere), been sat in the left hand lane at 80 for probably 10 miles with no obstruction and come across someone doing 65 in the middle lane. Why should I have to go all the way around them just to continue on my way. I'll just stay where I am thanks and cruise on by. Not like they have any intention of coming across into the left lane anyway.MysteryLemon said he was on a "quiet stretch" of the motorway, so I don't think the exemption for passing traffic on his right applies.
As I say, most of the time people realise theyre half asleep and move into the left lane after I've gone past but on a few occasions I've had people angrily flash and on one occasion speed up past me and get into my lane and drop back to 65 forcing me to slow down or overtake...
My driving instructor told me this, as I was approaching (in L1) traffic which was slowing in L2 - but i was clear in L1 and they were not moving over. I braked, but he corrected me and said:
"If you pass them on the inside because they slowed or were slower, you were not undertaking. You were simply maintaining speed."
I try and avoid passing people on the left, but in those situations where it is not possible that is good to remember.
"If you pass them on the inside because they slowed or were slower, you were not undertaking. You were simply maintaining speed."
I try and avoid passing people on the left, but in those situations where it is not possible that is good to remember.
MysteryLemon said:
Europa1 said:
"Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake."
MysteryLemon said he was on a "quiet stretch" of the motorway, so I don't think the exemption for passing traffic on his right applies.
This is my point. A quiet stretch, as in about 9pm at night, M1 north of the M6 junction (in the middle of nowhere), been sat in the left hand lane at 80 for probably 10 miles with no obstruction and come across someone doing 65 in the middle lane. Why should I have to go all the way around them just to continue on my way. I'll just stay where I am thanks and cruise on by. Not like they have any intention of coming across into the left lane anyway.MysteryLemon said he was on a "quiet stretch" of the motorway, so I don't think the exemption for passing traffic on his right applies.
As I say, most of the time people realise theyre half asleep and move into the left lane after I've gone past but on a few occasions I've had people angrily flash and on one occasion speed up past me and get into my lane and drop back to 65 forcing me to slow down or overtake...
You still undertook on the left, in a situation where the rules say you must overtake on the right.
Hopefully, any unmarked cars that follow you have their cameras off and a sympathetic crew.
MysteryLemon said:
I can think of countless times i've been keeping to the left on a quiet stretch of motorway only to come across someone dawdling at 60mph in the middle lane. I just hang in the left and carry on past them. On the odd occasion they will move in behind my on the left having probably just woken up. A number of times I've been flashed to tell me i'm in the wrong...
I've had this before and I really don't understand the mindset of someone who 'flashes' you after overtaking on the left. If they were in the correct lane to begin with this wouldn't of happened. It's not even like there's a huge speed differential between us, if so I could almost understand their reason for flashing their lights.For everyone saying it's illegal to 'undertake' I attended a speed awareness course last summer. There were two ex Police officers taking the course, one of them openly admitted to 'undertaking' and had that morning on the M25 on the way to the course! He said it is perfectly legal and acceptable if you don't change lanes beforehand to complete the maneuver and you keep within the speed limit. Keep left unless overtaking, they are the ones breaking the rules! If you have enough time to pass on the left then they should move over.
Edited by Bradley1500 on Thursday 29th January 12:24
Edited by Bradley1500 on Thursday 29th January 12:25
Edited by Bradley1500 on Thursday 29th January 17:27
Bradley1500 said:
MysteryLemon said:
I can think of countless times i've been keeping to the left on a quiet stretch of motorway only to come across someone dawdling at 60mph in the middle lane. I just hang in the left and carry on past them. On the odd occasion they will move in behind my on the left having probably just woken up. A number of times I've been flashed to tell me i'm in the wrong...
I've had this before and I really don't understand the mindset of someone who 'flashes' you after overtaking on the right. If they were in the correct lane to begin with this wouldn't of happened. It's not even like there's a huge speed differential between us, if so I could almost understand their reason for flashing their lights.For everyone saying it's illegal to 'undertake' I attended a speed awareness course last summer. There were two ex Police officers taking the course, one of them openly admitted to 'undertaking' and had that morning on the M25 on the way to the course! He said it is perfectly legal and acceptable if you don't change lanes beforehand to complete the maneuver and you keep within the speed limit. Keep left unless overtaking, they are the ones breaking the rules! If you have enough time to pass on the left then they should move over.
Edited by Bradley1500 on Thursday 29th January 12:24
Edited by Bradley1500 on Thursday 29th January 12:25
I don't think the American system would work here. We're far more aggressive drivers and I could see side on collisions.
The Americans drive more slower and far more casual (particularly outside of the west coast and north east) and don't seem to care if you cut them up, where as we all flash and honk here.
I think lane discipline has got worse, but this is not a uniquely British thing, I remember driving in Germany 15 years ago and I was astounded by the lane discipline, but as a German friend said to me "When you have cars flying past at 250kph plus you learn to look and stay out of the way" Last year I certainly noticed a change in Germany as well.
I do think some of it is the eastern migration, we might have extra lorry drivers, plumbers and waitress etc but their driving standards are definitely worse.
Domestically speaking I think the best way to combat this is too make motorway driving as part of the driving test and make correct lane discipline a part of passing the test. I still find amazing that motorways are an essential part of modern driving, yet they aren't included in the test.
The Americans drive more slower and far more casual (particularly outside of the west coast and north east) and don't seem to care if you cut them up, where as we all flash and honk here.
I think lane discipline has got worse, but this is not a uniquely British thing, I remember driving in Germany 15 years ago and I was astounded by the lane discipline, but as a German friend said to me "When you have cars flying past at 250kph plus you learn to look and stay out of the way" Last year I certainly noticed a change in Germany as well.
I do think some of it is the eastern migration, we might have extra lorry drivers, plumbers and waitress etc but their driving standards are definitely worse.
Domestically speaking I think the best way to combat this is too make motorway driving as part of the driving test and make correct lane discipline a part of passing the test. I still find amazing that motorways are an essential part of modern driving, yet they aren't included in the test.
LeapingDeere said:
Domestically speaking I think the best way to combat this is too make motorway driving as part of the driving test and make correct lane discipline a part of passing the test. I still find amazing that motorways are an essential part of modern driving, yet they aren't included in the test.
Most would argue that isn't possible looking at the geography of the country and that quite a lot of areas simply don't have motorways, but you know what, I agree. It should be part of the test. The number of people I know who are terrified of joining and driving on motorways and large A roads is crazy. They are terrified to the point they just avoid them unless absolutely necessary. If they had learnt to drive on a motorway then maybe this wouldn't be the case.LeapingDeere said:
Domestically speaking I think the best way to combat this is too make motorway driving as part of the driving test and make correct lane discipline a part of passing the test. I still find amazing that motorways are an essential part of modern driving, yet they aren't included in the test.
I like the old German system, there is a component of their test on motorways I believe. If you're in the overtaking lane when not overtaking it's an offence. If you're in the overtaking lane when not overtaking and another vehicle rear ends you - you're partially liable.Of course, the idea of Wolfgang hurtling up behind you at 150+ mph in his 2 tonnes of metal would ensure most people played by the rules.
MysteryLemon said:
LeapingDeere said:
Domestically speaking I think the best way to combat this is too make motorway driving as part of the driving test and make correct lane discipline a part of passing the test. I still find amazing that motorways are an essential part of modern driving, yet they aren't included in the test.
Most would argue that isn't possible looking at the geography of the country and that quite a lot of areas simply don't have motorways, but you know what, I agree. It should be part of the test. The number of people I know who are terrified of joining and driving on motorways and large A roads is crazy. They are terrified to the point they just avoid them unless absolutely necessary. If they had learnt to drive on a motorway then maybe this wouldn't be the case.Europa1 said:
Bradley1500 said:
MysteryLemon said:
I can think of countless times i've been keeping to the left on a quiet stretch of motorway only to come across someone dawdling at 60mph in the middle lane. I just hang in the left and carry on past them. On the odd occasion they will move in behind my on the left having probably just woken up. A number of times I've been flashed to tell me i'm in the wrong...
I've had this before and I really don't understand the mindset of someone who 'flashes' you after overtaking on the right. If they were in the correct lane to begin with this wouldn't of happened. It's not even like there's a huge speed differential between us, if so I could almost understand their reason for flashing their lights.For everyone saying it's illegal to 'undertake' I attended a speed awareness course last summer. There were two ex Police officers taking the course, one of them openly admitted to 'undertaking' and had that morning on the M25 on the way to the course! He said it is perfectly legal and acceptable if you don't change lanes beforehand to complete the maneuver and you keep within the speed limit. Keep left unless overtaking, they are the ones breaking the rules! If you have enough time to pass on the left then they should move over.
Edited by Bradley1500 on Thursday 29th January 12:24
Edited by Bradley1500 on Thursday 29th January 12:25
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