The war on NOx and diesel...
Discussion
With regard to air pollutants, perhaps we should ban cattle and other ruminants on the grounds that they produce noxious gases( or even politicians for the volume of hot and other gases they produce). I did watch the program, and failed to see any finger pointed at two of the worst pollutants in diesel vehicles- old buses and Diesel trains( the buses don't really need indicators, as the fumes could be channelled to left or right as indicators). But,hey these are Public transport, so beloved of the green goonies, and so can do no wrong.
[quote=Who me ?]With regard to air pollutants, perhaps we should ban cattle and other ruminants on the grounds that they produce noxious gases( or even politicians for the volume of hot and other gases they produce). I did watch the program, and failed to see any finger pointed at two of the worst pollutants in diesel vehicles- old buses and Diesel trains( the buses don't really need indicators, as the fumes could be channelled to left or right as indicators). But,hey these are Public transport, so beloved of the green goonies, and so can do no wrong.
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Or aircraft and shipping but all these vehicles carry large numbers of people wheras cars carry most often one or two and therefore pollution per person is higher .
Ignoring cars because there are other polluters out there is nonsense
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Or aircraft and shipping but all these vehicles carry large numbers of people wheras cars carry most often one or two and therefore pollution per person is higher .
Ignoring cars because there are other polluters out there is nonsense
[quote=Who me ?]With regard to air pollutants, perhaps we should ban cattle and other ruminants on the grounds that they produce noxious gases( or even politicians for the volume of hot and other gases they produce). I did watch the program, and failed to see any finger pointed at two of the worst pollutants in diesel vehicles- old buses and Diesel trains( the buses don't really need indicators, as the fumes could be channelled to left or right as indicators). But,hey these are Public transport, so beloved of the green goonies, and so can do no wrong.
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Take the emissions/mile or /time engine running from a train or bus and divide by the average number of people being transported by that vehicle. Do the same with a PLG. Compare.
Rather than being about liberal loonies it may well be more to do with primary school maths.
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Take the emissions/mile or /time engine running from a train or bus and divide by the average number of people being transported by that vehicle. Do the same with a PLG. Compare.
Rather than being about liberal loonies it may well be more to do with primary school maths.
liner33 said:
[quote=Who me ?]With regard to air pollutants, perhaps we should ban cattle and other ruminants on the grounds that they produce noxious gases( or even politicians for the volume of hot and other gases they produce). I did watch the program, and failed to see any finger pointed at two of the worst pollutants in diesel vehicles- old buses and Diesel trains( the buses don't really need indicators, as the fumes could be channelled to left or right as indicators). But,hey these are Public transport, so beloved of the green goonies, and so can do no wrong.
Or aircraft and shipping but all these vehicles carry large numbers of people wheras cars carry most often one or two and therefore pollution per person is higher .Ignoring cars because there are other polluters out there is nonsense
Focussing on pollution from cars first, is possibly understandable, because we see lots of cars every day, but they are not the greatest polluters. Getting the order of focus on those activities which cause the most problems, must surely be the most important consideration?
Global emissions arising from global computer use exceed all the emissions arising from global aviation, but we don't see the green loonies, bleating about that, perhaps we should ban all computers first?.
There are billions of stinky, polluting mopeds, with no emission's reducing technology (In fact mopeds represent the greatest number of personal motorised transport devices on the planet) But we don't see the green loonies protest about those? As others have pointed out cattle produce huge quanties of pollution, methane in particular which has a far greater effect on the environment than C02, so lets ban cattle.
But if one looks at what is at the root of all the polluting activities above(and many many more besides) we find us little ole humans at the bottom of just about every one. Perhaps the green loonies should begin their bleatings by calling for the banning of all humans? Except that would be even sillier than the rubbish they normally bang on about.
I dont really care about other countries I think its important for us to lead by example and start getting out own house in order before preaching to others. Its very easy to find an excuse not to do anything
Didnt know about the moped thing but I would imagine those countries/continents where mopeds are very popular they are used like this
Didnt know about the moped thing but I would imagine those countries/continents where mopeds are very popular they are used like this
The 'war' on diesels, supported by a sudden raft of partisan 'research' completely contradicting the previous position by dishonestly and irrationally exaggerating the pollution problems is just the latest strategy from the eco-loons. They have decided (stated explicitly to insiders) to move the climate change debate from the non-melting icecaps to giving your neighbours' children asthma (the biggest cause of asthma and far worse air pollution is of course found in the average home, especially those super-insulated as per eco-loon demands/affect of their policies on energy prices). The DECC has also a stated strategy to get us out of petrol and diesel cars, regardless of the cost/impracticalities of alternatives. So expect all IC cars to be taxed off the road. Diesel is step 1. Petrol step 2.
The war on diesels is just another ill thought out strategy to try & be seen to be green, the reality is if everyone bought a V8 petrol tomorrow we'd be told we're using to much oil & we'll have to pay more duty on petrol.
The reality is that by buying more economical (diesel) cars with lower emissions the government's not getting as much money it'll just be another tax in the end.
Diesel is a by product of Petrol & should be cheaper than Petrol but it isn't solely for the reason it's the more popular fuel.
The reality is that by buying more economical (diesel) cars with lower emissions the government's not getting as much money it'll just be another tax in the end.
Diesel is a by product of Petrol & should be cheaper than Petrol but it isn't solely for the reason it's the more popular fuel.
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Saturday 31st January 21:09
Well for me if you do only city driving, have off street parking, and don't need to do more than 60 miles in a single day, its a no brainer just get an EV. Cheap as chips to buy now with the new PCP deals, zero tax, 4p a mile or about the same as 130mpg. More torque than your average diesel and its available at 0 rpm. No gears or clutch makes start stop traffic stress free and easy. No clutch, DMF, DPF, turbo etc... that will break, no need for oil changes....
Mines saving me a fortune and is a joy to drive around the doors. So much so I have to fight the misses for it!
Of course no good for long runs or speed, but in those cases the soot chuckers are not really poisoning your kids either.
For the record I was never sucked in by the dash for diseasel, have never owned a soot chucker, will never own one. Can't stand them. IMO they are horrible things that belong in a farmers field or a scrap heap.
Mines saving me a fortune and is a joy to drive around the doors. So much so I have to fight the misses for it!
Of course no good for long runs or speed, but in those cases the soot chuckers are not really poisoning your kids either.
For the record I was never sucked in by the dash for diseasel, have never owned a soot chucker, will never own one. Can't stand them. IMO they are horrible things that belong in a farmers field or a scrap heap.
Mr GrimNasty said:
The 'war' on diesels, supported by a sudden raft of partisan 'research' completely contradicting the previous position by dishonestly and irrationally exaggerating the pollution problems is just the latest strategy from the eco-loons. They have decided (stated explicitly to insiders) to move the climate change debate from the non-melting icecaps to giving your neighbours' children asthma (the biggest cause of asthma and far worse air pollution is of course found in the average home, especially those super-insulated as per eco-loon demands/affect of their policies on energy prices). The DECC has also a stated strategy to get us out of petrol and diesel cars, regardless of the cost/impracticalities of alternatives. So expect all IC cars to be taxed off the road. Diesel is step 1. Petrol step 2.
Exactly! and a very good point. It seems that those here,e who castigate diesels are doing the eco loons work for them. They are allowing the eco loons to carry out divide and conquer tactics on motorists. Especially in the light of government duplicity in this. But as we know governments can be, and are duplicitous.It looks like the old `going Dutch' saying, when going out to dinner in a restaurant, is to be replaced by `Going Greek' Instead of paying your own bit of the bill (as in Going Dutch) you simply have the most expensive meal, and drinks in the restaurant, and at the end, you announce you are not going to pay the bill and just walk off. Nice cheat if you can get away with it a few times, (but after a while it doesn't work any more)
liner33 said:
I dont really care about other countries I think its important for us to lead by example and start getting out own house in order before preaching to others. Its very easy to find an excuse not to do anything
Didnt know about the moped thing but I would imagine those countries/continents where mopeds are very popular they are used like this
These are used in countries with billions of people. As posted before, global pollution does not recognise boundaries, Global pollution is global pollution no matter where it is generated. Add these to the rapid increase in coal fired power stations in these countries, and the sources of the`global' pollution `footprint' begins to be much clearer. Didnt know about the moped thing but I would imagine those countries/continents where mopeds are very popular they are used like this
Some idiots even say that by having goods made in these countries, which `we' then buy, all we are doing is exporting our emissions to those countries. If this is indeed the case, then the UK must be one of the cleanest countries on the planet. For centuries since the industrial revolution, the UK has been exporting manufactured goods from nails, cotton, to heavy machinery, entire railway systems, and ships all over the globe, so for centuries other countries, have been exporting `their' emissions to the UK.
liner33 said:
I dont really care about other countries I think its important for us to lead by example and start getting out own house in order before preaching to others. Its very easy to find an excuse not to do anything
Didnt know about the moped thing but I would imagine those countries/continents where mopeds are very popular they are used like this
A nice 4-stroke engine in that, like the majority of 'mopeds' these days. As with the rest of what Pan Pan wrote, his nonsense doesn't stand up to scrutiny.Didnt know about the moped thing but I would imagine those countries/continents where mopeds are very popular they are used like this
ZX10R NIN said:
The war on diesels is just another ill thought out strategy to try & be seen to be green, the reality is if everyone bought a V8 petrol tomorrow we'd be told we're using to much oil & we'll have to pay more duty on petrol.
The reality is that by buying more economical (diesel) cars with lower emissions the government's not getting as much money it'll just be another tax in the end.
Diesel is a by product of Petrol & should be cheaper than Petrol but it isn't solely for the reason it's the more popular fuel.
Agree with everything apart from diesel is a by product of petrol its not both are by products of oil main reason why diesel is more expensive is tax and the fact it cost more to produce/there is more demand for it than petrol not from car but heating oil which in winter is in demand.The reality is that by buying more economical (diesel) cars with lower emissions the government's not getting as much money it'll just be another tax in the end.
Diesel is a by product of Petrol & should be cheaper than Petrol but it isn't solely for the reason it's the more popular fuel.
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Saturday 31st January 21:09
MG CHRIS said:
Agree with everything apart from diesel is a by product of petrol its not both are by products of oil main reason why diesel is more expensive is tax and the fact it cost more to produce/there is more demand for it than petrol not from car but heating oil which in winter is in demand.
Okay I was under the impression that when producing petrol diesel was a by product of this process, I stand correctedI drive an old 80s TD is london and even i'm embarrassed by the crap modern diesels spew out, why is it my 75BHP TD can accelerate with no billowing of soot or piss smelling eye stinging fumes and still get similar MPG to the modern stuff? why do modern diesels NEED to have 200+ BHP when 100 will do ?
The obv answer IMHO is simple, electric trams, the saving on the s
te busses put out would offset the rest of the diesels in city centers, yes there will still be polution but there will be only the one producer to limit/filter/control, that of the chimney at the power station and PS are more efficient than a ICE.
As for cars limit the size of the cars allowed into the city, the amount of cruise liner sized mercs and bms i see with only 1 person in them is, frankly stupid when the same journey could be done in a smaller car with less power, higher MPG and lower emmisions.
The obv answer IMHO is simple, electric trams, the saving on the s
te busses put out would offset the rest of the diesels in city centers, yes there will still be polution but there will be only the one producer to limit/filter/control, that of the chimney at the power station and PS are more efficient than a ICE.As for cars limit the size of the cars allowed into the city, the amount of cruise liner sized mercs and bms i see with only 1 person in them is, frankly stupid when the same journey could be done in a smaller car with less power, higher MPG and lower emmisions.
stargazer30 said:
Well for me if you do only city driving, have off street parking, and don't need to do more than 60 miles in a single day, its a no brainer just get an EV. Cheap as chips to buy now with the new PCP deals, zero tax, 4p a mile or about the same as 130mpg. More torque than your average diesel and its available at 0 rpm. No gears or clutch makes start stop traffic stress free and easy. No clutch, DMF, DPF, turbo etc... that will break, no need for oil changes....
Mines saving me a fortune and is a joy to drive around the doors. So much so I have to fight the misses for it!
Of course no good for long runs or speed, but in those cases the soot chuckers are not really poisoning your kids either.
For the record I was never sucked in by the dash for diseasel, have never owned a soot chucker, will never own one. Can't stand them. IMO they are horrible things that belong in a farmers field or a scrap heap.
The trouble there is the damage done by the mining, transport and manufacture of the batterys hybrids use.Mines saving me a fortune and is a joy to drive around the doors. So much so I have to fight the misses for it!
Of course no good for long runs or speed, but in those cases the soot chuckers are not really poisoning your kids either.
For the record I was never sucked in by the dash for diseasel, have never owned a soot chucker, will never own one. Can't stand them. IMO they are horrible things that belong in a farmers field or a scrap heap.
Google Picher Oklahoma as a for instance
ZX10R NIN said:
MG CHRIS said:
Agree with everything apart from diesel is a by product of petrol its not both are by products of oil main reason why diesel is more expensive is tax and the fact it cost more to produce/there is more demand for it than petrol not from car but heating oil which in winter is in demand.
Okay I was under the impression that when producing petrol diesel was a by product of this process, I stand correctedhttp://www.southernfriedscience.com/?p=6897
S0 What said:
The trouble there is the damage done by the mining, transport and manufacture of the batterys hybrids use.
Google Picher Oklahoma as a for instance
What's that mining? Nickel used on the manufacturing of turbines and exhaust manifolds of turbo diesels? And you kitchen utensils? Nimh is recyclable anyway. Unlike that gallon or so of extra fuel used each tank on a normal petrol engines.Google Picher Oklahoma as a for instance
Mr Gear said:
liner33 said:
I dont really care about other countries I think its important for us to lead by example and start getting out own house in order before preaching to others. Its very easy to find an excuse not to do anything
Didnt know about the moped thing but I would imagine those countries/continents where mopeds are very popular they are used like this
A nice 4-stroke engine in that, like the majority of 'mopeds' these days. As with the rest of what Pan Pan wrote, his nonsense doesn't stand up to scrutiny.Didnt know about the moped thing but I would imagine those countries/continents where mopeds are very popular they are used like this
As usual, a closed cell, blinkered, urbanite, UK centric view of where `global' pollution actually comes from.
S0 What said:
I drive an old 80s TD is london and even i'm embarrassed by the crap modern diesels spew out, why is it my 75BHP TD can accelerate with no billowing of soot or piss smelling eye stinging fumes and still get similar MPG to the modern stuff? why do modern diesels NEED to have 200+ BHP when 100 will do ?
The obv answer IMHO is simple, electric trams, the saving on the ste busses put out would offset the rest of the diesels in city centers, yes there will still be polution but there will be only the one producer to limit/filter/control, that of the chimney at the power station and PS are more efficient than a ICE.
As for cars limit the size of the cars allowed into the city, the amount of cruise liner sized mercs and bms i see with only 1 person in them is, frankly stupid when the same journey could be done in a smaller car with less power, higher MPG and lower emissions.
The measure of efficiency is the amount of power produced for a given quantity of fuel burnt, and `some' power stations are reasonable in this respect, but fuel efficiency is rated in terms of ALL the emissions arising from taking the fuel from source to the point of delivery. Whilst electricity is deemed 100% efficient at point of use, it is currently the least efficient fuel in terms of its overall fuel to usable energy ratio. That is why electricity currently, has the worst government fuel factor of any general fuels used in the UK. The obv answer IMHO is simple, electric trams, the saving on the s
te busses put out would offset the rest of the diesels in city centers, yes there will still be polution but there will be only the one producer to limit/filter/control, that of the chimney at the power station and PS are more efficient than a ICE.As for cars limit the size of the cars allowed into the city, the amount of cruise liner sized mercs and bms i see with only 1 person in them is, frankly stupid when the same journey could be done in a smaller car with less power, higher MPG and lower emissions.
Once we have electricity generation based on nuclear power stations this will change, but at present electricity is disastrous in terms of its effect on (for example) building energy ratings.
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