RE: Porsche 911 GT3 vs The Road
Discussion
I liked the vid but it underlined to me how much I don't like Twin Clutch gearboxes when compared to a manual gearbox in terms of sound, and they always sound flat as they change gear and you lose some of the intensity when it comes to the noise/sound I think.
The GT3 does look a stunning package...I still hanker after a 997 GT3 with three pedals though far more.
The GT3 does look a stunning package...I still hanker after a 997 GT3 with three pedals though far more.
For the sake of balance, my real life track day experience with a Porsche PDK transmission ( albeit only installed in a 981 Cayman ) is that it is utterly amazing, in more than a dozen track days last year I've never experienced any of the short comings so expertly voiced by "The Pits". It changes gear beautifully at all engine speeds, and all load conditions that I have encountered, and is so fast and so reliable that it is perfectly possible to upshift whilst the car is heavily loaded with cornering forces, without making any discernible change to the attitude of the car . Maybe I've been lucky and have a good one, I rather doubt it !
If it can be done at speed on a track then that is as it should be.
I haven't driven a Cayman S on the track but the car with PDK that I drove shifted gear with a pronounced jolt at higher revs. It was a long way short of what you could call 'seamless'. The latest generation Nissan GTR for comparison is precisely that. It seemed clear to me that Porsche had set it up to work best in the upper-mid range, just where you need it for most road driving.
I'm happy to take Tim's word for it but nothing about the car I drove would encourage me to try shifting up mid-corner at high speed on a track. It was also incapable of holding a gear to the limiter, the computer would intervene shifting up a gear for you, regardless of what you were doing with the paddles. So timing upshifts near the limiter were a disaster. Potentially dangerous too during an overtaking manoeuvre, you'd end up shifting up two gears when you only wanted one. I've since learned that you need to spec the 'Sport Chrono' pack (at extortionate extra cost naturally) if you want fully manual control over your gears. Without that you are frankly better off not having any paddles at all. As with all autos I've driven, they are happiest and fastest left in 'D'. To think that the slick shifting manual is £2000 cheaper! The price for pseudo F1 technology is very high!
Question for Mr Ravon, assuming you have the Sport Chrono pack does this also make the shifts at high rpm smoother?
I drove a 991 GT3 around Spa last September and while it was a vast improvement over the Cayman S version of PDK that I tried, the jolt was still there, especially in the lower gears. Again an inferior gearshift system than the one in the Nissan GTR in my experience (if seamless, instant shifts and uninterrupted thrust is the intention).
I haven't driven a Cayman S on the track but the car with PDK that I drove shifted gear with a pronounced jolt at higher revs. It was a long way short of what you could call 'seamless'. The latest generation Nissan GTR for comparison is precisely that. It seemed clear to me that Porsche had set it up to work best in the upper-mid range, just where you need it for most road driving.
I'm happy to take Tim's word for it but nothing about the car I drove would encourage me to try shifting up mid-corner at high speed on a track. It was also incapable of holding a gear to the limiter, the computer would intervene shifting up a gear for you, regardless of what you were doing with the paddles. So timing upshifts near the limiter were a disaster. Potentially dangerous too during an overtaking manoeuvre, you'd end up shifting up two gears when you only wanted one. I've since learned that you need to spec the 'Sport Chrono' pack (at extortionate extra cost naturally) if you want fully manual control over your gears. Without that you are frankly better off not having any paddles at all. As with all autos I've driven, they are happiest and fastest left in 'D'. To think that the slick shifting manual is £2000 cheaper! The price for pseudo F1 technology is very high!
Question for Mr Ravon, assuming you have the Sport Chrono pack does this also make the shifts at high rpm smoother?
I drove a 991 GT3 around Spa last September and while it was a vast improvement over the Cayman S version of PDK that I tried, the jolt was still there, especially in the lower gears. Again an inferior gearshift system than the one in the Nissan GTR in my experience (if seamless, instant shifts and uninterrupted thrust is the intention).
Edited by The Pits on Friday 30th January 16:15
I'm wondering why the GT3 is being driven so slowly on these wonderful Welsh roads. I appreciate that it is being driven safely and mostly within the confines of one lane but why oh why so incredibly slowly? Is it a) fear of GT3 or b) fear of blue flashing lights turning up? This could have been a great bit of video which is why I clicked to view. Just for reference I have owned a 911 GT3 Gen 2 which I loved but found too hard core for long distances and really only in its element on track days at Silverstone.pr elsewhere. I believe it is said that 85% of the use GT3 cars get is actually on track not on the road. Which is why my recent acquisition of a 991 4S is a really good decision. It's fabulously comfortable, more than adequately quick as a road car (oh God half a second slower to 60mph than GT3) and deserves the praise that is heaped on it. Many rate the new 4S as the best 991. I think it is.
The Pits said:
Not so much as a syllable about the electric steering!
You need to go back there with a 997 and do a back to back comparison or don't Porsche allow that in their advertorials these days?
I'm still waiting to read any meaningful criticism about a car that is rear engined, auto only, heavier than its predecessor and with electric 4-wheel steering. Even Dan's whole 'scary at Silverstone' article had a positive spin on it - i.e. don't worry folks it's still scary, it hasn't been sanitised, like it's a good thing.
My experience of the car is very different to what I have read and no I didn't fall 'hopelessly in love'.
'PDK is almost seamless' that's true up to the mid-range but not true near the redline is it? Unlike, say, the Nissan GTR gearshift for example, which remains seamless right to the limiter. PDK changes gear with a jolt at high revs which was a big surprise after all I had read. Ah sure, just splitting hairs? If it's not seamless it's no longer an option to shift up mid corner at speed (like you can in a GTR) therefore taking away one of the real advantages of a good DCT over a manual.
It's a great car the new GT3 but no car is beyond criticism.
Looks like we will have to wait until the RS comes out before we read about the GT3's shortcomings, as per usual!
You are absolutely correct. But don't just blame Dan, this type of journalism has been in vogue for quite a while now. Perfected by Evo, Car, Autocar and Chris Harris- who actually in this case did say he was going to reserve judgement of the GT3's electric steering until he drove it in the wet. Of course that day never came. I think the auto writers have become too dependent upon not ticking off the big boys, and they feel they are justified because they likely will get cut off if they are too negative. On the plus side we have Hydraulic steering being offered as part of the new Toyota gt86 rally kit: http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/driving...You need to go back there with a 997 and do a back to back comparison or don't Porsche allow that in their advertorials these days?
I'm still waiting to read any meaningful criticism about a car that is rear engined, auto only, heavier than its predecessor and with electric 4-wheel steering. Even Dan's whole 'scary at Silverstone' article had a positive spin on it - i.e. don't worry folks it's still scary, it hasn't been sanitised, like it's a good thing.
My experience of the car is very different to what I have read and no I didn't fall 'hopelessly in love'.
'PDK is almost seamless' that's true up to the mid-range but not true near the redline is it? Unlike, say, the Nissan GTR gearshift for example, which remains seamless right to the limiter. PDK changes gear with a jolt at high revs which was a big surprise after all I had read. Ah sure, just splitting hairs? If it's not seamless it's no longer an option to shift up mid corner at speed (like you can in a GTR) therefore taking away one of the real advantages of a good DCT over a manual.
It's a great car the new GT3 but no car is beyond criticism.
Looks like we will have to wait until the RS comes out before we read about the GT3's shortcomings, as per usual!
m
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Edited by martin elaman on Saturday 31st January 19:26
Not at all, I consider Dan to be one of the few credible journalists left. I mean would you ever hear Chris Harris saying he thought the GT3 was scary in the wet? No chance.
I accept it must be a very difficult line to walk when working in a declining industry that so heavily depends on Porshe and Ferrari features, above all others, in order to maintain readership. But I think the interests of the readers had been lost in the fight for survival.
Chris Harris continues to do all he can to make owning a Porsche compulsory. Despite insisting that YouTube car videos were unsustainable (and begging for donations on Patreon), he has somehow managed to conjure up a lavish mega test at Potimao and featuring a 918, 991 GT3, F12, 458 Speciale among others. It's a great film actually, apart from the bit where he says there will be no winner... before declaring that if there was, guess what, he'd pick the GT3. Just wait and see who gets to drive the new GT3RS way before anyone else.
I accept it must be a very difficult line to walk when working in a declining industry that so heavily depends on Porshe and Ferrari features, above all others, in order to maintain readership. But I think the interests of the readers had been lost in the fight for survival.
Chris Harris continues to do all he can to make owning a Porsche compulsory. Despite insisting that YouTube car videos were unsustainable (and begging for donations on Patreon), he has somehow managed to conjure up a lavish mega test at Potimao and featuring a 918, 991 GT3, F12, 458 Speciale among others. It's a great film actually, apart from the bit where he says there will be no winner... before declaring that if there was, guess what, he'd pick the GT3. Just wait and see who gets to drive the new GT3RS way before anyone else.
"It's a great film actually, apart from the bit where he says there will be no winner... before declaring that if there was, guess what, he'd pick the GT3. Just wait and see who gets to drive the new GT3RS way before anyone else."
I've seen this "film" (Porsche's and Ferrari's sliding) so many times I'm not sure I care anymore. It seems that even on YouTube this video has only gotten around 200k views, which is well down from other motoring sites. I think many are getting bored with this genre of car testing. Indeed I'm much more excited to hear about the new toyota gt86 rally spec offering and how it drives on real roads. m
I've seen this "film" (Porsche's and Ferrari's sliding) so many times I'm not sure I care anymore. It seems that even on YouTube this video has only gotten around 200k views, which is well down from other motoring sites. I think many are getting bored with this genre of car testing. Indeed I'm much more excited to hear about the new toyota gt86 rally spec offering and how it drives on real roads. m
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