Manual or 8 speed automatic?

[anonymous-user]

jamieduff1981 said:

That engine will be one of the least rewarding engines to wring out with a manual gearbox imaginable.

Nice chassis ruined by a hateful engine with a narrow usable rev range. Get the auto and let the ZF8 mask the misery a bit.

I'm with him. A 320d is a boring car for boring workaday duties, and every boring car is a better boring car with a good automatic. 4 pot turbo diesels are a pain in the arse with a manual, the only reason to get one is because the auto option was/is st. That ZF flatters any nasty old donkey it's attached to, and that engine really does need all the flattery it can muster.

[jamieduff1981]

RobM77 said:

jamieduff1981 said:

RobM77 said:

jamieduff1981 said:

That engine will be one of the least rewarding engines to wring out with a manual gearbox imaginable.

Nice chassis ruined by a hateful engine with a narrow usable rev range. Get the auto and let the ZF8 mask the misery a bit.

Have you ever driven one?! It's very different from your average diesel from Audi, Ford etc. Sure, it's not a great engine, it's a rattly diesel, but it's certainly not got a narrow rev range. You can hold one gear throughout most corners right up to the end of where you finish cornering without having to change up (my criteria for a flexible engine).

Admittedly no. Is it the same engine in the 120d? If so, I have driven that a lot and likewise dismiss that as a nice chassis ruined by a hateful engine. The owner came from an S3 which I thought was st too, but she has given me permission to slap her if she ever buys a diesel again.

Yep, same engine. I'm truly puzzled by your conclusion! We're all different though I guess. I can't stand the top of pedal lag you get with a petrol BMW, so my favourite way to enjoy the chassis is actually one of their diesel engines, despite being a petrolhead through and through. The ultimate of course is a proper cable throttle without a lag, but sadly my 328i just got too unreliable in its old age

The 120d I sometimes get thrown the keys of has lag everywhere in the pedal, to the extent that you simply can't enjoy the chassis by applying power during any real-life corner. You've straightened up before that boat anchor has completed its notice period even if trying to dick about on a roundabout.

My S-Type has a very soft throttle response that gets irritating on twisty roads. I don't expect Cerbera throttle response from cars in general but that BMW diesel really is a dim witted sloth of a thing.

You'd get a better throttle response by scrapping the pedal and typing "faster" or "slower" using Stephen Hawking's eyeball operated letter cycler thing.

[va1o]

Auto is definitely the answer here. Several reasons as already highlighted - its been used for commuting, ZF-8 is an excellent 'box and suits the engine better than a manual would. The technology has really moved on quite a lot in the past decade considering the old torque converter units used to hamper performance and economy.

[loose cannon]

The new auto 8, twin clutch jobbies are an amazing bit of kit
Fast changes,smooth total revolution compared to the old slush box.
But I just can't help thinking unless you only ever drive to work in a solid traffic jam , you hate driving, you have 1 leg, you have no legs,
You work in an office and have forgotten you have a body and muscles, your a bit of a very very lazy person, or you have no interest in cars or for that matter or driving, i can't see how you would not still have a manwell !

[Gavin0478]

I have the zf 8 speed in my Q7 and it's a fantastic box.
It will lock the torque converter up from very low revs in all gears I believe, is fast changing for an auto too and it will also block change up or down for better overtaking response etc.

[AC43]

Zod said:

There is far too much gear changing in a manual diesel.

So get the auto.

[beanbag]

So big disappointment. The auto I was meant to try was not available for me to try. The sales guy seemed pretty flustered by it so somebody clearly screwed up and was very apologetic.

I now have to wait until Saturday for my drive. On the positive side, at least it won't be dark when I take it out.

[americancrx]

I've driven several of the best automatic gearboxes out there (the Toyota 8-speed, the ZF 8-speed, the ZF 9-speed, the Nissan CVT, and the GM and Ford 6-speed truck 'box).

In my opinion, they are still garbage! They share the same faults. They won't hold a high gear if you open the throttle. They won't hold a low gear if you lift off. They slur gearchanges even when commanded to shift with the paddles and delay shifting - a table lookup to see if a shift will blow the engine takes < 1 ms so why do I wait 250 ms? They smooth out rough throttle application; not helpful in the snow.

Get the manual, because in America we don't get the choice any longer in large cars and soon you won't either if enough of you go autotragic.

[csd19]

RobM77 said:

jamieduff1981 said:

That engine will be one of the least rewarding engines to wring out with a manual gearbox imaginable.

Nice chassis ruined by a hateful engine with a narrow usable rev range. Get the auto and let the ZF8 mask the misery a bit.

You can hold one gear throughout most corners right up to the end of where you finish cornering without having to change up (my criteria for a flexible engine).

Thank god you mentioned that, been a while since we've heard it...

OP, I'd be going for the auto option, the ZF box is a fantastic bit of kit

[robm3]

Six months ago I would have voted Manual without a shadow of a doubt.

But then I brought an F-Type and I love the 8 speed auto in daily use. Just 95% of the pleasure of a manual 100% of the time (as opposed to 100%, 50% of the time, if that makes sense).

[Kawasicki]

furtive said:

Are BMW manuals still awful or have they got better?

When did they get bad?

[jamieduff1981]

americancrx said:

I've driven several of the best automatic gearboxes out there (the Toyota 8-speed, the ZF 8-speed, the ZF 9-speed, the Nissan CVT, and the GM and Ford 6-speed truck 'box).

In my opinion, they are still garbage! They share the same faults. They won't hold a high gear if you open the throttle. They won't hold a low gear if you lift off. They slur gearchanges even when commanded to shift with the paddles and delay shifting - a table lookup to see if a shift will blow the engine takes < 1 ms so why do I wait 250 ms? They smooth out rough throttle application; not helpful in the snow.

Get the manual, because in America we don't get the choice any longer in large cars and soon you won't either if enough of you go autotragic.

I don't recognise any of those characteristics in my ZF8. I can agree they would be pretty awful to live with, but that's not how mine or any other ZF8s (all in Jaguars, admittedly) have behaved.

[beanbag]

Interesting thing. I just found out the ZF-8 gear box contains 3 clutches! Do these eventually have to be replaced or are they lifetime items?

[Zod]

csd19 said:

RobM77 said:

jamieduff1981 said:

That engine will be one of the least rewarding engines to wring out with a manual gearbox imaginable.

Nice chassis ruined by a hateful engine with a narrow usable rev range. Get the auto and let the ZF8 mask the misery a bit.

You can hold one gear throughout most corners right up to the end of where you finish cornering without having to change up (my criteria for a flexible engine).

Thank god you mentioned that, been a while since we've heard it...

OP, I'd be going for the auto option, the ZF box is a fantastic bit of kit

How often does anyone change gear during a corner? Declutching will disturb the balance of the car, so you don't do it. Select the right gear for the corner before entering.

[va1o]

beanbag said:

Interesting thing. I just found out the ZF-8 gear box contains 3 clutches! Do these eventually have to be replaced or are they lifetime items?

If they are anything like the clutches on a VW DSG they should last near vehicle lifetime. Because they are computer controlled and bathed in oil they aren't subjected to the same wear as a conventional 'human operated' clutch.

[RobM77]

jamieduff1981 said:

RobM77 said:

jamieduff1981 said:

RobM77 said:

jamieduff1981 said:

That engine will be one of the least rewarding engines to wring out with a manual gearbox imaginable.

Nice chassis ruined by a hateful engine with a narrow usable rev range. Get the auto and let the ZF8 mask the misery a bit.

Have you ever driven one?! It's very different from your average diesel from Audi, Ford etc. Sure, it's not a great engine, it's a rattly diesel, but it's certainly not got a narrow rev range. You can hold one gear throughout most corners right up to the end of where you finish cornering without having to change up (my criteria for a flexible engine).

Admittedly no. Is it the same engine in the 120d? If so, I have driven that a lot and likewise dismiss that as a nice chassis ruined by a hateful engine. The owner came from an S3 which I thought was st too, but she has given me permission to slap her if she ever buys a diesel again.

Yep, same engine. I'm truly puzzled by your conclusion! We're all different though I guess. I can't stand the top of pedal lag you get with a petrol BMW, so my favourite way to enjoy the chassis is actually one of their diesel engines, despite being a petrolhead through and through. The ultimate of course is a proper cable throttle without a lag, but sadly my 328i just got too unreliable in its old age

The 120d I sometimes get thrown the keys of has lag everywhere in the pedal, to the extent that you simply can't enjoy the chassis by applying power during any real-life corner. You've straightened up before that boat anchor has completed its notice period even if trying to dick about on a roundabout.

My S-Type has a very soft throttle response that gets irritating on twisty roads. I don't expect Cerbera throttle response from cars in general but that BMW diesel really is a dim witted sloth of a thing.

You'd get a better throttle response by scrapping the pedal and typing "faster" or "slower" using Stephen Hawking's eyeball operated letter cycler thing.

If it's one of the new ones you'll need to cycle to the furthest sports mode to get rid of the lag. Ridiculous, but necessary.

[Zedboy1200]

My 2010-12 was dominated by 85k in an XC60 D5 auto.... Lovely car ruined by a sloppy old school six speed auto that was always 2 seconds behind me! My first and last auto box. So bad I jumped into a manual 6 speed 325d for 80k

Cue a new job and for the last four weeks my new daily commute of 225 miles has been in a shiny new 520d eight speed auto. Not chosen by my as it's just a '14' reallocated car and I would never have chosen an auto.

It is fantastic in every way! I'm completely converted :-)

[fivepointnine]

Not a BMW, but I have an 8spd auto box in my 348 hp Hyundai Genesis 3.8 and I think the box shifts faster than I ever could with a manual, it also has paddles that when in that mode actually hold gears like a manual transmission.

[RobM77]

Zod said:

csd19 said:

RobM77 said:

jamieduff1981 said:

That engine will be one of the least rewarding engines to wring out with a manual gearbox imaginable.

Nice chassis ruined by a hateful engine with a narrow usable rev range. Get the auto and let the ZF8 mask the misery a bit.

You can hold one gear throughout most corners right up to the end of where you finish cornering without having to change up (my criteria for a flexible engine).

Thank god you mentioned that, been a while since we've heard it...

OP, I'd be going for the auto option, the ZF box is a fantastic bit of kit

How often does anyone change gear during a corner? Declutching will disturb the balance of the car, so you don't do it. Select the right gear for the corner before entering.

Precisely my point. That's the definition of a flexible engine and gear ratios: those that will allow the taking of a wide variety of corners without interupting them with a gearchange (which as you rightly say, disturbs the car, both through the shift in weight transfer when acceleration stops and starts, and the removal and application of compression induced braking from the engine to the drivetrain when you declutch). The only other need for flexibility is if you don't like changing gear, which is of no interest to me as its not a dynamic requirement and I enjoy changing gear The OP should go for the auto if they don't enjoy changing gear or are lazy. This applies to most car buyers who can afford a car with a decent auto box, which is why the salesman is pushing it - it'll make his life easier on trade in and resale, and most buyers prefer it, and he wants a happy customer who won't change his mind or complain.

[jamieduff1981]

I love the T5 manual gearbox in my Cerbera. I love the ZF8 in my XF.

I just got a Ranger pickup with a 6 speed auto which isn't great on the basis that it has a crap diesel engine which punishes any attempt at enjoyment, and test driving the manual revealed a gearshift that nobody would miss. So auto it was.

I would agree with you all the way if we were talking about free revving engines, nice noises and a manual gearbox with a meaty but short and precise action, but we're not. We're talking about a horrible engine and a very mediocre gear change in a German saloon car that inspires zero visions of the Stelvio Pass when driving.