Manual or 8 speed automatic?
Poll: Manual or 8 speed automatic?
Total Members Polled: 198
Discussion
jamieduff1981 said:
I love the T5 manual gearbox in my Cerbera. I love the ZF8 in my XF.
I just got a Ranger pickup with a 6 speed auto which isn't great on the basis that it has a crap diesel engine which punishes any attempt at enjoyment, and test driving the manual revealed a gearshift that nobody would miss. So auto it was.
I would agree with you all the way if we were talking about free revving engines, nice noises and a manual gearbox with a meaty but short and precise action, but we're not. We're talking about a horrible engine and a very mediocre gear change in a German saloon car that inspires zero visions of the Stelvio Pass when driving.
I think that's firmly opinion rather than fact. The car in question has 180bhp, a FE/RWD layout, not excessive weight, and a well sorted chassis. I've owned some pretty nice cars handling wise (Elise, two Caterhams, Lotus 2-Eleven etc), and I love driving my 320d - it brings a big smile to my face every time I take a corner in it, especially on a wet day like today. I think the same of the 116d MSport I drove recently - I really enjoyed threading it through corners as I would an MX5 (which incidentally has an identical layout, also well sorted, considerably less power and a similar power to weight). The only thing preventing the 3 series being a driver's car are people's opinions towards the sound or delivery of its engine. In my book, a driver's car is made by the chassis, and the chassis alone. That's my opinion too of course, but I'm just as entitled to it as you are yours.I just got a Ranger pickup with a 6 speed auto which isn't great on the basis that it has a crap diesel engine which punishes any attempt at enjoyment, and test driving the manual revealed a gearshift that nobody would miss. So auto it was.
I would agree with you all the way if we were talking about free revving engines, nice noises and a manual gearbox with a meaty but short and precise action, but we're not. We're talking about a horrible engine and a very mediocre gear change in a German saloon car that inspires zero visions of the Stelvio Pass when driving.
The auto's a great auto box, but it remains an auto box and if the car's buyer wants to thread the car through a serious of corners drifting gently on the limit, as I did with mine this morning, that task is going to be more rewarding with a manual gearbox. If you're not that person, go for the auto.
By the way, where's this belief that it's a crap manual gearbox come from? It's not as good as a Honda box, but surely far better than most cars out there today? Most cars' gearchanges these days are all rubbery and imprecise. BMW boxes have never been anything to rave about, but they don't really detract from the driving experience, they're just functional.
Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 28th January 08:59
I have this exact car and went for the manual. Didn't drive the auto version but have done in a F10 525d. Sometimes I do think I should have gone for the auto, but most of the time I enjoy driving the manual as my commute is mainly rural roads so a bit of fun can be had, put it in sport and enjoy heel & toe and a great chassis. It corners better than you think a family estate should do!
So, if 90% of the time you are going to be sitting in stop start traffic then the auto is definateley the way to go.
So, if 90% of the time you are going to be sitting in stop start traffic then the auto is definateley the way to go.
americancrx said:
I've driven several of the best automatic gearboxes out there (the Toyota 8-speed, the ZF 8-speed, the ZF 9-speed, the Nissan CVT, and the GM and Ford 6-speed truck 'box).
In my opinion, they are still garbage! They share the same faults. They won't hold a high gear if you open the throttle. They won't hold a low gear if you lift off. They slur gearchanges even when commanded to shift with the paddles and delay shifting - a table lookup to see if a shift will blow the engine takes < 1 ms so why do I wait 250 ms? They smooth out rough throttle application; not helpful in the snow.
Get the manual, because in America we don't get the choice any longer in large cars and soon you won't either if enough of you go autotragic.
Don't see any of those traits with the 6-speed auto in mine, and if you put it in sport mode it basically turns into a paddle-operated manual.In my opinion, they are still garbage! They share the same faults. They won't hold a high gear if you open the throttle. They won't hold a low gear if you lift off. They slur gearchanges even when commanded to shift with the paddles and delay shifting - a table lookup to see if a shift will blow the engine takes < 1 ms so why do I wait 250 ms? They smooth out rough throttle application; not helpful in the snow.
Get the manual, because in America we don't get the choice any longer in large cars and soon you won't either if enough of you go autotragic.
Monty Python said:
Don't see any of those traits with the 6-speed auto in mine, and if you put it in sport mode it basically turns into a paddle-operated manual.
No, it doesn't - not even the very best auto 'boxes do that (see, e.g., PDK). An old-fashioned auto, even a very good one, is miles away from being similar to a manual 'box.Definitely the 8 speed auto.
My dad has the BMW 320d with the 8 speed auto and I drove it up to the Highlands once. It really is fantastic. The gearbox is perfectly mated to that engine, I really have no idea why anyone would choose a manual for this sort of car. That autogearbox is so quick and smooth, you barely notice the gearchanges, and with 8 gears, it feels like the engine just keeps pulling and pulling with barely noticeable gearchanges. The auto has to be much quicker and more economical.
My dad has the BMW 320d with the 8 speed auto and I drove it up to the Highlands once. It really is fantastic. The gearbox is perfectly mated to that engine, I really have no idea why anyone would choose a manual for this sort of car. That autogearbox is so quick and smooth, you barely notice the gearchanges, and with 8 gears, it feels like the engine just keeps pulling and pulling with barely noticeable gearchanges. The auto has to be much quicker and more economical.
I agree with the guy who mentioned having to put the car in its "sportiest" setting. Even in a manual BMW, Ecopro mode disconnects the throttle pedal and replaces it with a confused carrier pigeon with a little note saying "More power, please, I think". Normal mode is a bit better but there is still noticeable mediation of your inputs; sport mode is the most similar to how throttle pedals used to feel back in the olden days.
In an auto BMW, Eco pro mode is borderline dangerous - unless you trigger kickdown (which isn't even that fast itself), the box and engine will completely ignore throttle inputs for as long as a second while the computer decides whether or not to let you use more fuel. If you drive in that mode for the sake of 1p per mile in fuel, you need your head examined...
In an auto BMW, Eco pro mode is borderline dangerous - unless you trigger kickdown (which isn't even that fast itself), the box and engine will completely ignore throttle inputs for as long as a second while the computer decides whether or not to let you use more fuel. If you drive in that mode for the sake of 1p per mile in fuel, you need your head examined...
zed4 said:
Definitely the 8 speed auto.
My dad has the BMW 320d with the 8 speed auto and I drove it up to the Highlands once. It really is fantastic. The gearbox is perfectly mated to that engine, I really have no idea why anyone would choose a manual for this sort of car. That autogearbox is so quick and smooth, you barely notice the gearchanges, and with 8 gears, it feels like the engine just keeps pulling and pulling with barely noticeable gearchanges. The auto has to be much quicker and more economical.
Because they don't prioritise smooth gearchanges over absolute control in cornering and the simple joy of changing gear and heel an toeing?My dad has the BMW 320d with the 8 speed auto and I drove it up to the Highlands once. It really is fantastic. The gearbox is perfectly mated to that engine, I really have no idea why anyone would choose a manual for this sort of car. That autogearbox is so quick and smooth, you barely notice the gearchanges, and with 8 gears, it feels like the engine just keeps pulling and pulling with barely noticeable gearchanges. The auto has to be much quicker and more economical.
Fastdruid said:
I accidentally voted manual before I realised you were talking about a diesel.
Auto all the way, makes the tiny little rev range tolerable as it can do the 4 billion extra gearchanges you need to have any go what so ever.
That doesn't really apply to the 320d though, as already discussed. I've driven a lot of diesels, and your comment above applies to an Audi or Ford etc (plus many high performance petrol engines actually), but not a BMW diesel - it's one of their main design briefs on their diesel engines.Auto all the way, makes the tiny little rev range tolerable as it can do the 4 billion extra gearchanges you need to have any go what so ever.
RobM77 said:
That doesn't really apply to the 320d though, as already discussed. I've driven a lot of diesels, and your comment above applies to an Audi or Ford etc (plus many high performance petrol engines actually), but not a BMW diesel - it's one of their main design briefs on their diesel engines.
Rob's right on that point. The 320d engine will rev reasonably happily (even if, as with all diesels, there isn't a lot to be gained from holding gears) and is a decently flexible unit compared to the standard 4-cyl diesel.I drove the 320d for a few hundred miles last year and have since been amazed how much worse other 4 cyl diesel engines still are. The BMW unit is in a different league. BMW has prioritised diesel engines over pretty much everything else, and the results are very impressive.
(It is still a pretty unpleasant engine, so unless you are doing loads of miles, buy a petrol like a real man
)RobM77 said:
zed4 said:
Definitely the 8 speed auto.
My dad has the BMW 320d with the 8 speed auto and I drove it up to the Highlands once. It really is fantastic. The gearbox is perfectly mated to that engine, I really have no idea why anyone would choose a manual for this sort of car. That autogearbox is so quick and smooth, you barely notice the gearchanges, and with 8 gears, it feels like the engine just keeps pulling and pulling with barely noticeable gearchanges. The auto has to be much quicker and more economical.
Because they don't prioritise smooth gearchanges over absolute control in cornering and the simple joy of changing gear and heel an toeing?My dad has the BMW 320d with the 8 speed auto and I drove it up to the Highlands once. It really is fantastic. The gearbox is perfectly mated to that engine, I really have no idea why anyone would choose a manual for this sort of car. That autogearbox is so quick and smooth, you barely notice the gearchanges, and with 8 gears, it feels like the engine just keeps pulling and pulling with barely noticeable gearchanges. The auto has to be much quicker and more economical.
Don't get me wrong, I love manual gearboxes (which I why I own a Caterham, TVR and a Clio Cup!) and they're great in the right car, but I think in a modern car, I would definitely tick the ZF 8 speed option box.
The only snag with 8-speed autos comes when they are used to "help" a small engine. In my experience it results in difficulty with roundabouts where the car fails to select a low enough gear. I tend to click the paddles for an extra downshift to cope with this. Never had the problem with previous larger engines and fewer ratios.
ORD said:
Rob's right on that point. The 320d engine will rev reasonably happily (even if, as with all diesels, there isn't a lot to be gained from holding gears) and is a decently flexible unit compared to the standard 4-cyl diesel.
I drove the 320d for a few hundred miles last year and have since been amazed how much worse other 4 cyl diesel engines still are. The BMW unit is in a different league. BMW has prioritised diesel engines over pretty much everything else, and the results are very impressive.
(It is still a pretty unpleasant engine, so unless you are doing loads of miles, buy a petrol like a real man )
I usually hate diesel engines, but that 184hp engine in the 320d in particularly good. I was very impressed. I drove the 320d for a few hundred miles last year and have since been amazed how much worse other 4 cyl diesel engines still are. The BMW unit is in a different league. BMW has prioritised diesel engines over pretty much everything else, and the results are very impressive.
(It is still a pretty unpleasant engine, so unless you are doing loads of miles, buy a petrol like a real man
)zed4 said:
ORD said:
Rob's right on that point. The 320d engine will rev reasonably happily (even if, as with all diesels, there isn't a lot to be gained from holding gears) and is a decently flexible unit compared to the standard 4-cyl diesel.
I drove the 320d for a few hundred miles last year and have since been amazed how much worse other 4 cyl diesel engines still are. The BMW unit is in a different league. BMW has prioritised diesel engines over pretty much everything else, and the results are very impressive.
(It is still a pretty unpleasant engine, so unless you are doing loads of miles, buy a petrol like a real man )
I usually hate diesel engines, but that 184hp engine in the 320d in particularly good. I was very impressed. I drove the 320d for a few hundred miles last year and have since been amazed how much worse other 4 cyl diesel engines still are. The BMW unit is in a different league. BMW has prioritised diesel engines over pretty much everything else, and the results are very impressive.
(It is still a pretty unpleasant engine, so unless you are doing loads of miles, buy a petrol like a real man
)I've owned a string of petrol BMWs, and this is my first ever diesel. The way I saw it was as follows:
Petrol:
Pros - sounds nicer, more refinement at low speed, greater rev range.
Cons - top of pedal throttle lag (coming onto n% from 0%).
Diesel:
Pros - instant top of pedal throttle response, cheaper to run (I do 40k miles a year, so save £1500 a year on fuel, which saves me just over £5k in the time I'll keep the car, in fact it pays for depreciation and running costs of my 2-Eleven!).
Cons - turbo lag in certain circumstances (this happens in the BMW if you're off the throttle for a while and suddenly demand quite a bit of throttle, for example slowing gradually for a roundabout and gunning it for a gap, which for me is quite rare - I get it about once every two weeks), doesn't sound very good, less refinement at low speed, smaller rev range.
For me the diesel wins easily (because I won't tolerate throttle lag - at all), for others the petrol wins, there is no right or wrong on the matter.
As regards the auto box, I'll admit is suits a diesel more than a petrol, but again there are pros and cons and it depends on your type of driving. I've tried both, and given that I love driving, love cornering and never drive in towns, it was an easy decision for me. In fact I promised my wife before we got married that I'd never buy an automatic
I didnt realise the thread was only to be about Diesel Beemers, before I voted.
For what its worth, I have a Supercharged Petrol Audi as a 5000miles PA weekday hack, and I had to compromise on the gearbox, as Audi don't do a manual anymore on the S/RS series A4 - as they can claim lower emissions rates for the engines with the autobox.
I would have chosen a manual option in a heartbeat, if given the choice, even though this one has flappy paddles.
For what its worth, I have a Supercharged Petrol Audi as a 5000miles PA weekday hack, and I had to compromise on the gearbox, as Audi don't do a manual anymore on the S/RS series A4 - as they can claim lower emissions rates for the engines with the autobox.
I would have chosen a manual option in a heartbeat, if given the choice, even though this one has flappy paddles.
Hol said:
I didnt realise the thread was only to be about Diesel Beemers, before I voted.
For what its worth, I have a Supercharged Petrol Audi as a 5000miles PA weekday hack, and I had to compromise on the gearbox, as Audi don't do a manual anymore on the S/RS series A4 - as they can claim lower emissions rates for the engines with the autobox.
I would have chosen a manual option in a heartbeat, if given the choice, even though this one has flappy paddles.
For what its worth, I have a Supercharged Petrol Audi as a 5000miles PA weekday hack, and I had to compromise on the gearbox, as Audi don't do a manual anymore on the S/RS series A4 - as they can claim lower emissions rates for the engines with the autobox.
I would have chosen a manual option in a heartbeat, if given the choice, even though this one has flappy paddles.
Sadly the case with lots of cars (I'm a fan of the SLK55 AMG for example, but you can't get them with a manual box). The new Jag XE for example will only come with a manual box with its diesel engines, and not on any of the petrol options... http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/2015-ja...
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