RE: Jaguar XE: Driven
Discussion
I'm not really getting the need for the review to distance this car from the X-Type. The X was an excellent and competitive product for its time (remember, it was developed in the late nineties and was launched at the turn of the millenium, when 240BHP from a 6 cylinder engine and all-wheel-drive were class leading). The CD132 platform was also a very well engineered design and a good basis for the car.
The XF is derived from the S-Type chassis which itself was derived from an old Ford Lincoln, and I don't see anyone dissing it by association.
The XF is derived from the S-Type chassis which itself was derived from an old Ford Lincoln, and I don't see anyone dissing it by association.
chandrew said:
A quick look at nearly new cars (dealer stock etc) here in Switzerland shows some of the issues:
> 90% of all Audi A4s are estates
> 65% of all BMW 3 series are estates
> 60% of all BMW 3 series are AWD
OK so Switzerland is small. If I do a similar search in Germany the majority of 3 series are estates and over 80% of Audi A4s.
The target markets for this car are the USA and the far East - both of which consider liftbacks as downmarket and utilitarian.> 90% of all Audi A4s are estates
> 65% of all BMW 3 series are estates
> 60% of all BMW 3 series are AWD
OK so Switzerland is small. If I do a similar search in Germany the majority of 3 series are estates and over 80% of Audi A4s.
jamieduff1981 said:
I'm not sure if people are being deliberately stupid or just ignorant regarding pricing.
Jaguar have for the last decade and a half provided a base model with far more equipment as standard than the Germans. That's bad news for drivers who just want the cheapest, nastiest poverty spec model because Jaguar doesn't do poverty spec very well. If you intend to spec the option doors, windows and seats to your BMW then you'll find the pricing much closer.
Much also depends on the individual. Some are happy to pay a very small premium not to be seen in a generic German car.
AGREED. I was looking for a replacement to my 7 year old, 35k miles Audi A6 which was "written off" when a $5 sensor broke on the steering column ("we have to replace the steering column + half the computers on the car, Sir!"). I looked at everything from German (except Audi!) and went into the Jaguar dealership more out of curiosity than anything. The XF blew my socks off compared to the C Class and 3 Series. I looked at a 1 year old low mileage very high spec 3 Series Estate for circa £32k. The XF Portfolio Sportback I bought was £2k cheaper with additional Carbon Fiber Trim, Detachable Tow Hook, Fancy wing mirrors with all sorts of info about over taking etc, Cooling Seats, Active Cruise Control + numerous, numerous smaller items. A 5 series (more comparable to to my XF) was another £5-6k on top of the 3 Series price again! i.e Jaguar was £7-8k cheaper than comparative 5 series. And before someone says "but that 2nd hand pricing" it applies to new price as well. I checkedJaguar have for the last decade and a half provided a base model with far more equipment as standard than the Germans. That's bad news for drivers who just want the cheapest, nastiest poverty spec model because Jaguar doesn't do poverty spec very well. If you intend to spec the option doors, windows and seats to your BMW then you'll find the pricing much closer.
Much also depends on the individual. Some are happy to pay a very small premium not to be seen in a generic German car.
Come on Guys! we're supposed to be PetrolHeads - stop writing drivel!
cerb4.5lee said:
I like this from the front but not too keen on the rear, I have been interested in this coming out and its positive Jag have a 3 series alternative I think, my main gripes are Jags old man image and perceived reliability.
The F-Type has helped massively regards the image I reckon but I wouldn't be that confident regards reliability with a JLR product but that could be me being overly harsh.
Really? , Jaguar has won the JD power survey for the last 3 years running !The F-Type has helped massively regards the image I reckon but I wouldn't be that confident regards reliability with a JLR product but that could be me being overly harsh.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/jaguar-...
Audi and BMW didnt even make the top 10 !
knitware said:
ZesPak said:
- I went to a dealer looking at a new 3 series (E90) once, the difference between the new 3 and older 5 was about £2k back then!
- That's a nice claim, have you driven it? BMW engines are good, the ingenium are supposed to be even better... The chassis good, handling supposed to be good. And, according to most reviews, the 3-er is beaten in nearly every way by the new C-class, so far from "class-leading" or "though for any manufacturer to catch up"?
- I've sat in the 3-series, C-class, A4 and XE back to back this weekend. I'd pick the XE over the 3-er every day of the week. But the C-class over both though.
Sorry to say this, but your post stinks of BMW fanboyisms. The newer gen BMW's have been nowhere near as well received as the generations before it, the competition has most definitely caught up and in some cases even surpassed it.
Stinks?It's not 'fanboyism' but observasions gained from reading thousands of words, watching reviews and actually driving various cars, apart from the XE...
Edited by ZesPak on Wednesday 28th January 10:28
More insightful comments regarding the XE:
Andrew Frankel
'So far as I can tell from the pre-production models I drove, the car is nearer outstanding than merely good and when you consider that Jaguar made just over 80,000 cars last year while BMW made 1.8 million (not including Mini), the scale of the achievement is astounding'........
Car & Driver:
"The XE is proof that there’s at least one automaker still looking out for enthusiasts. The question is whether there are enough enthusiasts still looking for a car like the XE. We believe there are"
Andrew Frankel
'So far as I can tell from the pre-production models I drove, the car is nearer outstanding than merely good and when you consider that Jaguar made just over 80,000 cars last year while BMW made 1.8 million (not including Mini), the scale of the achievement is astounding'........
Car & Driver:
"The XE is proof that there’s at least one automaker still looking out for enthusiasts. The question is whether there are enough enthusiasts still looking for a car like the XE. We believe there are"
The problem is that the Germans (Audi/Merc/BMW) are to large and have such deep pockets that if all you appraise a car on is the finance options and relative cost, then we will all be driving something German in 10 years time. You have to look beyond the dollar value of a car into the murky and subjective area of how it feels to drive and live with, which you cannot really figure out with sums.
dukebox9reg said:
knitware said:
ZesPak said:
- I went to a dealer looking at a new 3 series (E90) once, the difference between the new 3 and older 5 was about £2k back then!
- That's a nice claim, have you driven it? BMW engines are good, the ingenium are supposed to be even better... The chassis good, handling supposed to be good. And, according to most reviews, the 3-er is beaten in nearly every way by the new C-class, so far from "class-leading" or "though for any manufacturer to catch up"?
- I've sat in the 3-series, C-class, A4 and XE back to back this weekend. I'd pick the XE over the 3-er every day of the week. But the C-class over both though.
Sorry to say this, but your post stinks of BMW fanboyisms. The newer gen BMW's have been nowhere near as well received as the generations before it, the competition has most definitely caught up and in some cases even surpassed it.
Stinks?It's not 'fanboyism' but observasions gained from reading thousands of words, watching reviews and actually driving various cars, apart from the XE...
Edited by ZesPak on Wednesday 28th January 10:28
I agree about the EPAS it's important that it feels right, although 'right' varies from person to person. The big problem is that bad EPAS typically gives you less confidence in the chassis, even if the chassis is amazing. There's more 'guesswork' and a longer 'getting to know you' time. Sometimes it feels more precise than hydraulic steering, but it's often too light. Even with the right weight, it often feels wrong.
I think the problem is more powerful moving direct drive electric servo motors, like they use for the best 'force feedback' systems, are where it's at. However they add weight, cost more and are typically rack mounted, so manufacturers don't like using them on cheaper cars. Little 'column mounted' electric motors with gears have a slower response to provide full assistance, and to provide no assistance. The gears also add a little friction to the steering system.
When you buy your next car, find out if it has rack mounted, direct drive electric power steering.
I think the problem is more powerful moving direct drive electric servo motors, like they use for the best 'force feedback' systems, are where it's at. However they add weight, cost more and are typically rack mounted, so manufacturers don't like using them on cheaper cars. Little 'column mounted' electric motors with gears have a slower response to provide full assistance, and to provide no assistance. The gears also add a little friction to the steering system.
When you buy your next car, find out if it has rack mounted, direct drive electric power steering.
dukebox9reg said:
Autocar summarise by saying the comfort is better than the C and handling better than the 3. Just saying.
BUT, Autocar was driving the car at around 20mph! No one knows anything until a test is made, myself include, I'm simply writing my thoughts as there are no facts.jl34 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I like this from the front but not too keen on the rear, I have been interested in this coming out and its positive Jag have a 3 series alternative I think, my main gripes are Jags old man image and perceived reliability.
The F-Type has helped massively regards the image I reckon but I wouldn't be that confident regards reliability with a JLR product but that could be me being overly harsh.
Really? , Jaguar has won the JD power survey for the last 3 years running !The F-Type has helped massively regards the image I reckon but I wouldn't be that confident regards reliability with a JLR product but that could be me being overly harsh.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/jaguar-...
Audi and BMW didnt even make the top 10 !
knitware said:
smilo996 said:
it looks like thay have done a mighty job.
The car it replaces is the X Type. So if nothing else compared to that it is a mighty achievement.
outside of the PH German bubble, most other reports are very positive and I tend to agree with other reports. By way of example:
'So far as I can tell from the pre-production models I drove, the car is nearer outstanding than merely good and when you consider that Jaguar made just over 80,000 cars last year while BMW made 1.8 million (not including Mini), the scale of the achievement is astounding.
jl34 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I like this from the front but not too keen on the rear, I have been interested in this coming out and its positive Jag have a 3 series alternative I think, my main gripes are Jags old man image and perceived reliability.
The F-Type has helped massively regards the image I reckon but I wouldn't be that confident regards reliability with a JLR product but that could be me being overly harsh.
Really? , Jaguar has won the JD power survey for the last 3 years running !The F-Type has helped massively regards the image I reckon but I wouldn't be that confident regards reliability with a JLR product but that could be me being overly harsh.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/jaguar-...
Audi and BMW didnt even make the top 10 !
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1501_20...
More praise than even AutoCar.
"The Porsche GT3 might have Jag's EPAS solution licked in terms of outright wowza, but I've never felt electrically assisted power steering of this caliber on a sports sedan. It's not only that the steering is weighted just about perfectly, but the feel stays excellent all the way through a corner, and that's no small feat. Jaguar made a point to emphasize that it waited years before offering up an EPAS solution because it wanted to make sure it met the brand's reputation for sportiness. To me, that initially sounded like typical marketing BS. Thing is, the steering is revelatory. They might actually be telling the truth!"
More praise than even AutoCar.
"The Porsche GT3 might have Jag's EPAS solution licked in terms of outright wowza, but I've never felt electrically assisted power steering of this caliber on a sports sedan. It's not only that the steering is weighted just about perfectly, but the feel stays excellent all the way through a corner, and that's no small feat. Jaguar made a point to emphasize that it waited years before offering up an EPAS solution because it wanted to make sure it met the brand's reputation for sportiness. To me, that initially sounded like typical marketing BS. Thing is, the steering is revelatory. They might actually be telling the truth!"
unpc said:
Quite. Always amazes me that people still quote guff about Jags being unreliable despite consistently scoring above Lexus, just because they heard some bloke in the pub say it or watched an episode of Minder or summat.
Meh, it's not so much as scoring Jag low as it is as scoring the germans high, while in every report for the past 10 years they haven't gotten above average, often being left behind by even the french.My own experience, although anecdotal, supports this.
It won't keep me off owning another german car if a good one comes along, as reliability isn't my primary buying incentive in a car. I just find it cringe worthy people still see it as a selling point for a german car.
smilo996 said:
Not everyone is as cynical as you. Have you seen Jaguars sales recently? Despite your lack of enthusiasm, clearly many others do not follow you attitude.
The car it replaces is the X Type. So if nothing else compared to that it is a mighty achievement.
outside of the PH German bubble, most other reports are very positive and I tend to agree with other reports. By way of example:
'So far as I can tell from the pre-production models I drove, the car is nearer outstanding than merely good and when you consider that Jaguar made just over 80,000 cars last year while BMW made 1.8 million (not including Mini), the scale of the achievement is astounding.
I'm not cynical about JLR, I’m looking at the new XE and finding it hard to see anything to excite.The car it replaces is the X Type. So if nothing else compared to that it is a mighty achievement.
outside of the PH German bubble, most other reports are very positive and I tend to agree with other reports. By way of example:
'So far as I can tell from the pre-production models I drove, the car is nearer outstanding than merely good and when you consider that Jaguar made just over 80,000 cars last year while BMW made 1.8 million (not including Mini), the scale of the achievement is astounding.
JLR have some remarkable products but I think the XE will slip under BMW, Mercedes and Audi’s offerings.
So back you your quote, what is remarkable? Well if we put the XE in isolation, not much.
ZesPak said:
It won't keep me off owning another german car if a good one comes along, as reliability isn't my primary buying incentive in a car. I just find it cringe worthy people still see it as a selling point for a german car.
Reliability was never a primary incentive for me either when buying a car...six years in a TVR changed my mind though! and I have just come to the conclusion that British built cars deserve a little caution when it comes to reliability. I have owned seven BMW`s now and not a thing has gone wrong with any of them but appreciate as with any manufacturer you get good and bad cars and its just pot luck if you are lucky enough to get a good one.
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