RE: Jaguar XE: Driven
Discussion
Fetchez la vache said:
So people seriously think a good vs. bad "infotainment system" will make or break this car?
f
k me sideways the world has gone mad. Or is it gone sad...
This car needs to sell in volume. For a lot of buyers, the infotainment is important.f
k me sideways the world has gone mad. Or is it gone sad...That said, I sat in one and had a poke around and while it wasn't as intuitive as the new Merc's, it didn't look half bad.
snaelro said:
it is not about being mad, it is about being Jaguar, not a bad A5 mixed with a BMW 3.
Being Jaguar has got them to the point that Tata needed to buy them to avoid bankruptcy.I don't like it any more than you do, but if Jaguar wants to survive, this is the right move. Not some quirky left-field design.
If we ever want to see a "g"-type, or anything similar, this is the way to go.
Porsche survived because of the Cayenne and the Boxster, not because of the GT2 or GT3.
Without the sleep inducing sea of grey that are the A1,A3,A4,A6,... we wouldn't have the R8.
Without the C-class and A-class, no AMG models,...
etc
The Germans are doing very well to the point that they have the entire premium market. They didn't get there by outrageous designs.
snaelro said:
.............it is unashamedly inspired by the Audi A5 for the back and the BMW 3 series for the side and front (put a vertical bar in the middle of the grill and you have a BMW front fascia, lamps included); and that is a failure for a company that is so proud (arrogant?) of its design culture and good taste.
they simply copied the competition like the Japanese would have done 30 years ago or the Chinese nowadays.
I don't think I've ever read such completely uninformed bthey simply copied the competition like the Japanese would have done 30 years ago or the Chinese nowadays.
ks before; even on PH. Shows a total lack of understanding of how car design works or appreciation of how brand styling is achieved.
Why are we Brits so obsessed with knocking our own companies?
OK the XE is a bit generic at the back, both other than that I think it's great. IMO both the interior and exterior styling are restrained where the Germans are typically brash and fussy. I'm a serial BMW owner having had 6 of them in the past and I long for a credible British alternative.
If this XE drives as well as is claimed, and has competitive pricing / residuals / lease or contract hire costs I think it will prove to be a big success.
Praise for outstanding styling may win you plaudits in the press and maybe some awards but it rarely wins you many sales.
Let's face it, the Rover 600 won awards all over the place (including, IIRC, "most beautiful car" in Italy) and look what happened to them.
This is a boring segment dominated by very competent but ultimately boring cars. The slightest deviation from "very conservative" seems to result in lots of written praise and bugger all sales.
Let's face it, the Rover 600 won awards all over the place (including, IIRC, "most beautiful car" in Italy) and look what happened to them.
This is a boring segment dominated by very competent but ultimately boring cars. The slightest deviation from "very conservative" seems to result in lots of written praise and bugger all sales.
People seem to oversimplify the priorities of car buyers.
It would appear that some people are convinced that anyone who has a family buys an estate. Anyone who is a sales rep buys a low CO2 saloon and anyone interested in handling buys a 2 seater.
Ergo the only thing that matters to anyone who could possibly be interested in a car is this segment is lease rates and infotainment screens.
The reality is that most normal people with jobs, families etc need cars that fulfill family requirements and some (like a fair few PHers apparently, just buy-by-numbers) and while they claim to want different cars the financial rationale in context is so weak that the truth is more like that they just prefer to conform to social norms lest anyone raise an eyebrow at their choices.
Although it's popular to dismiss these cars as all the same, they're not really relative to each other and providing they are in the right ballpark a substantial number of people will buy based on subjective measures. Someone can definately rank handling above infotainment screens whilst accepting the need for a 5 seat saloon car rather than a Caterham. Most people do not like the PH approach of "shedding" whereby you cover most of your milage in a st old car so you can have a Westfield in the driveway and prefer to choose a family capable car they think looks nice and is bias more towards their own priorities. If infotainment and old fashioned interior is important you'll buy a Merc. If trundling along without being hassled by anything outside your car, such as other road users, is what matters most then you get an Audi.
It's the 3 series which the Jag XE seems to have tackled as the 3-series is a pretty grim place to be but it handled best out of the Germans although that has been eroded too. The XE seems to have been pitched as the driver's car out of the lot. If how it drives matters to you a lot, consider one. If it's not important, look elsewhere.
The point is that even with the segment buyers have different preferences and weight attributes differently. If you actively want to fit in and be just like everyone else, then you're never going to chose a Jag, Lexus or anything similar over the fashionable German things.
It would appear that some people are convinced that anyone who has a family buys an estate. Anyone who is a sales rep buys a low CO2 saloon and anyone interested in handling buys a 2 seater.
Ergo the only thing that matters to anyone who could possibly be interested in a car is this segment is lease rates and infotainment screens.
The reality is that most normal people with jobs, families etc need cars that fulfill family requirements and some (like a fair few PHers apparently, just buy-by-numbers) and while they claim to want different cars the financial rationale in context is so weak that the truth is more like that they just prefer to conform to social norms lest anyone raise an eyebrow at their choices.
Although it's popular to dismiss these cars as all the same, they're not really relative to each other and providing they are in the right ballpark a substantial number of people will buy based on subjective measures. Someone can definately rank handling above infotainment screens whilst accepting the need for a 5 seat saloon car rather than a Caterham. Most people do not like the PH approach of "shedding" whereby you cover most of your milage in a s
t old car so you can have a Westfield in the driveway and prefer to choose a family capable car they think looks nice and is bias more towards their own priorities. If infotainment and old fashioned interior is important you'll buy a Merc. If trundling along without being hassled by anything outside your car, such as other road users, is what matters most then you get an Audi.It's the 3 series which the Jag XE seems to have tackled as the 3-series is a pretty grim place to be but it handled best out of the Germans although that has been eroded too. The XE seems to have been pitched as the driver's car out of the lot. If how it drives matters to you a lot, consider one. If it's not important, look elsewhere.
The point is that even with the segment buyers have different preferences and weight attributes differently. If you actively want to fit in and be just like everyone else, then you're never going to chose a Jag, Lexus or anything similar over the fashionable German things.
jamieduff1981 said:
It's the 3 series which the Jag XE seems to have tackled as the 3-series is a pretty grim place to be but it handled best out of the Germans although that has been eroded too. The XE seems to have been pitched as the driver's car out of the lot. If how it drives matters to you a lot, consider one. If it's not important, look elsewhere.
As a C Class owner, I've taken XE to be more a grand tourer - a comfortable car to cover long distances. If that's true, C Class would be more obvious competition than 3 Series. Reading Merc forums, owners are increasingly getting hacked off by how harsh C Class is in everyday use.I know this is Pistonheads, a site for motoring enthusiasts but the XE is a new car in the small exec sector where a majority of buyers choose their car off a list handed to them by managers. This is the sector where fleet sales will be king. The reason Audi shift so many A4's isn't because it handles better than a 3 series because they simply don't, or whether it's easier to connect the new iphone18 to the C Class or A4. The Audi A4 (and the 3 series / C Class) are market leaders because of the perceived prestige which comes with the badge. The Mazda may be more economical, the old 159 a better looking car, the C5 a better ride, the IS Lexus a better interior, but still middle management still ticked the 'Audi' or 'BMW' box on the company car list (often even without a test drive) because of the perceived prestige. You only have to look in any bland corporation car park to see the rows of black/silver/white/grey Audi, Merc and BMW small exec saloons. It's a sector where a safe Germanic approach rules, not a sector for a shouty car.
Jaguar is having a revival. The XE will be seen as being a 'Prestige but safe' alternative to the 'prestige but safe' Audi and BMW so it will sell. Sad as it sounds, it doesn't have to out-handle the 3 series, it just needs to have enough middle-management grey-suit credibility to convince 'Malcolm from Accounts' that he wants a 'Jaaaaag'......
Jaguar is having a revival. The XE will be seen as being a 'Prestige but safe' alternative to the 'prestige but safe' Audi and BMW so it will sell. Sad as it sounds, it doesn't have to out-handle the 3 series, it just needs to have enough middle-management grey-suit credibility to convince 'Malcolm from Accounts' that he wants a 'Jaaaaag'......
The Surveyor said:
the 'Audi' or 'BMW' box on the company car list (often even without a test drive) because of the perceived prestige.
It raised some eyebrows when I picked Peugeot 406 off a list that included 3 Series and A4. 
It was a few years ago (obviously) when the other two weren't that well equipped and the 406 had every available option as standard - it literally had no option list.
That's key to some company car buyers - they'll choose XE simply because it's got sat nav and leather as standard.
Sheepshanks said:
Reading Merc forums, owners are increasingly getting hacked off by how harsh C Class is in everyday use.
What do you mean by 'harsh'?A friend of mine has just got a new C class 2 litre turbo petrol estate and I've got to say I like it, although it was only a run round the block so I maybe didn't get a true feel for it.
Sheepshanks said:
It raised some eyebrows when I picked Peugeot 406 off a list that included 3 Series and A4.
It was a few years ago (obviously) when the other two weren't that well equipped and the 406 had every available option as standard - it literally had no option list.
That's key to some company car buyers - they'll choose XE simply because it's got sat nav and leather as standard.
It was a few years ago (obviously) when the other two weren't that well equipped and the 406 had every available option as standard - it literally had no option list.
That's key to some company car buyers - they'll choose XE simply because it's got sat nav and leather as standard.
We had a similar list.
1-series with no options
307 SW full fat
Surprisingly, all of the guys went for the 307, while just 4 girls went for the 1-series. Two of them asked to switch a couple of months in and they were allowed to.
But, that's besides the point. A lot of people will still buy based on brand, no test drives, nothing. These people then find out that, although a 1-series is on the same list as the Focus, it's actually smaller than the Fiesta.
As mentioned before, Audi sells because it's "audi", not because it's a good steer and deffo not because it's good VFM, hell in the CO2/bhp they are lagging behind as well. The question is, can Jaguar do the same thing? Sell cars because it's Jaguar. I mentioned the jag to a couple of people recently and I was surprised at the "old man" comments I got about Jaguar. These are the same people that drive a VW and will tell you that Skoda is rubbish, of course, but there's a lot of them.
To me and to us, Jaguar is a great brand. The recent XF and F-type convinced all of us that, while maybe not class leading, they can provide a more than decent alternative. But from my anecdotal experience, most people will not put Jaguar in the same sentence than Merc or BMW, and Jaguar needs to achieve that in order to be put on the same company car list at similar prices.
The Surveyor said:
I know this is Pistonheads, a site for motoring enthusiasts but the XE is a new car in the small exec sector where a majority of buyers choose their car off a list handed to them by managers. This is the sector where fleet sales will be king. The reason Audi shift so many A4's isn't because it handles better than a 3 series because they simply don't, or whether it's easier to connect the new iphone18 to the C Class or A4. The Audi A4 (and the 3 series / C Class) are market leaders because of the perceived prestige which comes with the badge. The Mazda may be more economical, the old 159 a better looking car, the C5 a better ride, the IS Lexus a better interior, but still middle management still ticked the 'Audi' or 'BMW' box on the company car list (often even without a test drive) because of the perceived prestige. You only have to look in any bland corporation car park to see the rows of black/silver/white/grey Audi, Merc and BMW small exec saloons. It's a sector where a safe Germanic approach rules, not a sector for a shouty car.
Jaguar is having a revival. The XE will be seen as being a 'Prestige but safe' alternative to the 'prestige but safe' Audi and BMW so it will sell. Sad as it sounds, it doesn't have to out-handle the 3 series, it just needs to have enough middle-management grey-suit credibility to convince 'Malcolm from Accounts' that he wants a 'Jaaaaag'......
This, this, this and this some moreJaguar is having a revival. The XE will be seen as being a 'Prestige but safe' alternative to the 'prestige but safe' Audi and BMW so it will sell. Sad as it sounds, it doesn't have to out-handle the 3 series, it just needs to have enough middle-management grey-suit credibility to convince 'Malcolm from Accounts' that he wants a 'Jaaaaag'......
The reality of this is that it isn't aimed at you or I in our PH guise, but at us in our 'what can we have from the fleet list' guise.
This places Jag firmly on the 'acceptable to have' list, and you can defend it in the pub against the prestige / sportiness / build quality of the Germans without any trouble. None of your colleagues / friends / neighbours are going to laugh at this choice, and many are going to be interested / jealous, as they have not had one before, and it is something new.
This doesn't need to beat the germans, it just needs to be a viable and acceptable alternative. I think it is.
Maldini35 said:
The Vambo said:
Maldini35 said:
I'll ignore your ill-informed dig and simply challenge you on your acceptance of mediocrity.
This is a brand new car. A design starting from a clean sheet of paper. Do you honestly think this is a triumph? Is this a classic in waiting?
If everybody had your attitude we would never have had the E-Type...
Oh, and you stayed very quiet about the sub-standard touch screen.
We all want Jaguar to flourish - of course we do - but if it wants to make the next step it has to improve across the board.
I can forgive an average infotainment system on the F-Type because it's a stunningly beautiful sports car.
But in a generic-styled executive saloon in which people will drive 15,000 miles a year, it is just not good enough.
A wasted opportunity to shake up the category and make the world take notice.
I am not happy about this, in fact I'm angry. And you should be too.
God, where to start?This is a brand new car. A design starting from a clean sheet of paper. Do you honestly think this is a triumph? Is this a classic in waiting?
If everybody had your attitude we would never have had the E-Type...
Oh, and you stayed very quiet about the sub-standard touch screen.
We all want Jaguar to flourish - of course we do - but if it wants to make the next step it has to improve across the board.
I can forgive an average infotainment system on the F-Type because it's a stunningly beautiful sports car.
But in a generic-styled executive saloon in which people will drive 15,000 miles a year, it is just not good enough.
A wasted opportunity to shake up the category and make the world take notice.
I am not happy about this, in fact I'm angry. And you should be too.
Jaguar tried to "shake up the category" when they launched the XJ. IT DIDN'T WORK!
You want an E-type equivalent launched in the most conservative, competitive and clearly defined segment in the whole industry?
Inoffensive, slightly attractive and respectable is what this segment demands and Jaguar have delivered.
The reason I stayed quiet about the substandard touch screen is that I don't know if it is as I suspect you don't, where did you try it? Are you basing it on today's first drives?
The reason you are angry is that you live in a fantasy land where the reality of what people actually buy is second to your Homer Simpson style car wet dream.
Ps. have you ever met XJflyer?
Yes the category is conservative. To shake up the world in the cut-throat B segment would mean Jaguar going toe to toe with their main competitors and delivering a product that matches them in the key areas and exceeds them in others.
Like it or not, Jaguar has not yet got the brand reputation for engineering excellence that their German counterparts have. It's not fair but it is a fact. That is one of the reasons their global sales are small and their residuals are poor. Please don't argue this.
As a result any new product from Jaguar has to go further (think 'Avis we try harder') to prove that they are a serious contender.
Already we have car journo's commenting on the poor infotainment system - this just fuels consumer preconceptions that Jaguar is behind the Germans in terms of technology and quality.
That is why I see this XE as a missed opportunity. It delivers in some areas but falls down in some of the important ones - like interior quaility and exterior design.
Your previous reply suggested that I was naive for suggesting that exterior design (or "shiny, shiny" as you so eloquently put it) is a key factor in peoples decision making process. Industry research since the dawn of time confirms this is a fact.
Not sure what you do, but you don't seem to understand much about the global car market or what sells.
I just hope you don't work for JLR or we are all doomed.
Edited by Maldini35 on Thursday 29th January 10:39
Edited by Maldini35 on Thursday 29th January 10:56
After all the knocking, here`s a surprise. The XE has just been named "The Most Beautiful Car of 2014" at the 30th Festival Automobile International in Paris. Apparently the choice was made by the public - 100,000 voted across 59 countries and the Jag came out top with 28% of the vote. Another trophy for Ian Callum and his design team. Well done!
kambites said:
Maldini35 said:
kambites said:
Does anyone know what Jaguar's sales targets are?
80,000 a year globally is what they quoted at launchSheepshanks said:
kambites said:
Maldini35 said:
kambites said:
Does anyone know what Jaguar's sales targets are?
80,000 a year globally is what they quoted at launchIt's lower than the class leader, but it's still a pretty aspirational target for a first model.
- edited
Edited by ZesPak on Thursday 29th January 11:56
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