RE: Jaguar XE: Driven
Discussion
knitware said:
ZesPak said:
1 I went to a dealer looking at a new 3 series (E90) once, the difference between the new 3 and older 5 was about £2k back then!
That visit you made was some time ago.knitware said:
ZesPak said:
2 That's a nice claim, have you driven it? BMW engines are good, the ingenium are supposed to be even better... The chassis good, handling supposed to be good. And, according to most reviews, the 3-er is beaten in nearly every way by the new C-class, so far from "class-leading" or "though for any manufacturer to catch up"?
No one has driven it properly, no one as yet can say whats good or bad. I dont know what review you have read but no literature anywhere says the C Class is better than a 3 series, dynamiclly and engine wise the C Class is not as good.It does have a shiney interior which I think you likeBut, my comment was on you saying the XE won't be as good as the 3-er. Just... because.
:crazy:
knitware said:
ZesPak said:
3 I've sat in the 3-series, C-class, A4 and XE back to back this weekend. I'd pick the XE over the 3-er every day of the week. But the C-class over both though.
That's great, this is what car buying is all about, i suggest you drive the car rather than sit in one though! Enjoy.
knitware said:
ZesPak said:
Sorry to say this, but your post stinks of BMW fanboyisms. The newer gen BMW's have been nowhere near as well received as the generations before it, the competition has most definitely caught up and in some cases even surpassed it.
Stinks?It's not 'fanboyism' but observasions gained from reading thousands of words, watching reviews and actually driving various cars, apart from the XE...It's fine you're happy with your BMW (I don't even have to look on your profile to know you own at least one), but it's not really credible just dismissing the competition. Don't forget, competition is good. If BMW was the one and only (like you say -> "jag shouldn't even try, they won't get it as good"), your next BMW (be honest, you're not going to look at anything else, as they can't get close) will be a lot more expensive and they don't even have to try to make it better in any way.
GTEYE said:
BPS on comments that the latest 3 Series doesn't handle....the boggo rep specials are certainly more comfort biased than their predecessors (intentionally), but get an M Sport and there's a fine balance between comfort and handling. Having had an F30 (standard suspension) and now an F32 (M Sport suspension), they are actually much superior to the E90 and E46 models in almost every way.
Comparing standard suspension variants of E90 and F30, I respectfully disagree. I don't doubt with four figures of expensive options thrown on it, the F30 handles well. Out of the box, it's average. A humble four pot diesel E90 in ES trim was much nicer to hustle along in my opinion.apotts said:
chandrew said:
Jaguar's biggest problem with the XF was that it didn't bring out AWD or an estate until a long time after launch. It was then an old car.
I don't hear any messages that there will be AWD or an estate any time soon with the XE.
A quick look at nearly new cars (dealer stock etc) here in Switzerland shows some of the issues:
> 90% of all Audi A4s are estates
> 65% of all BMW 3 series are estates
> 60% of all BMW 3 series are AWD
OK so Switzerland is small. If I do a similar search in Germany the majority of 3 series are estates and over 80% of Audi A4s.
Doing the same in the UK for the 3 series (nearly new):I don't hear any messages that there will be AWD or an estate any time soon with the XE.
A quick look at nearly new cars (dealer stock etc) here in Switzerland shows some of the issues:
> 90% of all Audi A4s are estates
> 65% of all BMW 3 series are estates
> 60% of all BMW 3 series are AWD
OK so Switzerland is small. If I do a similar search in Germany the majority of 3 series are estates and over 80% of Audi A4s.
22% estates
12% AWD
OK, so the UK is small-ish, but we haven't gone bust and it's the home of Jaguar.
... and Switzerland certainly hasn't gone bust. We didn't fall into recession during the financial crisis and we haven't had to reduce national debt.
More importantly as a car-selling market the median net Swiss salary is currently 3x what it is in the UK. The top selling cars in the UK last year were the Fiesta, Focus & Corsa. Here the 3 series, A4 and C class all outsold these cars. The 4 series wasn't far behind.
The XF was outsold last year by the CLS, Tesla S, Maserati Ghibli & BMW 6 series. Porsche sold 3x as many 911s. The XJ sales are so low that Ferrari sold over 50% more LaFerraris, as did Rolls with the Wraith.
In Europe Jaguars are rare. Maybe Jaguar has just given up trying.
ZesPak said:
It's fanboyism because your verdict on the XE is set before you obviously even sat in one, let alone drive it.
It's fine you're happy with your BMW (I don't even have to look on your profile to know you own at least one), but it's not really credible just dismissing the competition. Don't forget, competition is good. If BMW was the one and only (like you say -> "jag shouldn't even try, they won't get it as good"), your next BMW (be honest, you're not going to look at anything else, as they can't get close) will be a lot more expensive and they don't even have to try to make it better in any way.
I agree competition is great; it keeps everyone on their toes, new developments, exciting designs, efficient engines, FAST engines, handling improvements and safety increased but…It's fine you're happy with your BMW (I don't even have to look on your profile to know you own at least one), but it's not really credible just dismissing the competition. Don't forget, competition is good. If BMW was the one and only (like you say -> "jag shouldn't even try, they won't get it as good"), your next BMW (be honest, you're not going to look at anything else, as they can't get close) will be a lot more expensive and they don't even have to try to make it better in any way.
Don’t you remember the launch of the XF? Everyone loved the XF, I wanted an XF, the interior looked amazing, the exterior looked so much better than anything else available to buy at the time, seeing it on the road I loved it, I wanted one (I couldn’t afford one).
The XE though hasn’t done anything to excite, you really have to pick through the bones to see anything about this car that is exciting. Don’t you agree?
The Evoque, I’m not keen but they looked great and thrilled at launch, the new Defender, good looking and capable, there will be a pre-order list for that but the new XE, is, well, meh, and because of that I draw the conclusion that the car itself and its engines and handling will also be ‘ordinary’.
Jag's dealer network seems a bit limited to me. Purely anecdotal, but I know where my nearest BMW, Audi, Merc and VW dealers are (all within 10miles, probably less). I suspect the nearest Jag dealer is 30 miles away. Maybe a small thing, but that does add to the PITA factor for ownership. I'd be inclined to overlook this for a niche product like the F-Type, but for a mainstream daily driver that might well be putting miles on a bit more quickly, it's a factor.
Same goes for the infotainment - this kind of car needs to do stuff like that well, and it sounds as though it might not. Honestly, I'd be just as tempted by a diesel Passat as I would the diesel XE, and the Passat will soon be available with the same instruments as the new TT. The final nail is that I'd save enough to buy an MX5 or similar for weekends. Best of both worlds.
Same goes for the infotainment - this kind of car needs to do stuff like that well, and it sounds as though it might not. Honestly, I'd be just as tempted by a diesel Passat as I would the diesel XE, and the Passat will soon be available with the same instruments as the new TT. The final nail is that I'd save enough to buy an MX5 or similar for weekends. Best of both worlds.
I like Jags, I generally like BMWs, I remain less convinced by Mercs and Audis I've owned or run.
My number one consideration with a car of this type will be how it drives. A large part of this driving pleasure will come from the quality of steering and feedback from the other primary controls at quite modest speeds. Ride quality would probably be the second most important consideration followed by reliability (latest BMW blew up at 125k miles...),the quality of the stereo, general comfort and practicality and finally the cars looks...
I realize the majority of new car buyers / pch'ers, pcp'ers do not think like me but I really hope that £ for £ this car is the best drive in its sector and that it is a great success for JLR.
My number one consideration with a car of this type will be how it drives. A large part of this driving pleasure will come from the quality of steering and feedback from the other primary controls at quite modest speeds. Ride quality would probably be the second most important consideration followed by reliability (latest BMW blew up at 125k miles...),the quality of the stereo, general comfort and practicality and finally the cars looks...
I realize the majority of new car buyers / pch'ers, pcp'ers do not think like me but I really hope that £ for £ this car is the best drive in its sector and that it is a great success for JLR.
Limpet said:
GTEYE said:
BPS on comments that the latest 3 Series doesn't handle....the boggo rep specials are certainly more comfort biased than their predecessors (intentionally), but get an M Sport and there's a fine balance between comfort and handling. Having had an F30 (standard suspension) and now an F32 (M Sport suspension), they are actually much superior to the E90 and E46 models in almost every way.
Comparing standard suspension variants of E90 and F30, I respectfully disagree. I don't doubt with four figures of expensive options thrown on it, the F30 handles well. Out of the box, it's average. A humble four pot diesel E90 in ES trim was much nicer to hustle along in my opinion.ZesPak said:
Dodsy said:
Jaguar are let down by 70's style approach to servicing, very poor warranty once the car gets >60k Miles (they have NO faith in their product to last beyond 60k miles) and the ancient interior technology.
Really? Dealers here give you 3 years instead of the 2 in most manufacturers, and second hand is actually very comprehensive, including the DPF and other stuff you wouldn't see everywhere...On the warranty front I made the mistake of paying Jaguar £1400 for a years full approved warranty but once my car went over 60k miles they told me that pretty much anything I tried to claim would be considered wear and tear and not covered. I was particularly miffed as I extended the warranty at around 56k miles, had I know about the limit I wouldnt have bothered. Nothing in the small print saying 60k miles by the way, but thats 'just the way it is'. I tried to claim for some bushes that would have been covered at under 60k but were not as it had gone over. The mileage when I tried to claim - 60,009.
Jaguar customer service told me 'tough luck' when I complained.
knitware said:
ZesPak said:
It's fanboyism because your verdict on the XE is set before you obviously even sat in one, let alone drive it.
It's fine you're happy with your BMW (I don't even have to look on your profile to know you own at least one), but it's not really credible just dismissing the competition. Don't forget, competition is good. If BMW was the one and only (like you say -> "jag shouldn't even try, they won't get it as good"), your next BMW (be honest, you're not going to look at anything else, as they can't get close) will be a lot more expensive and they don't even have to try to make it better in any way.
I agree competition is great; it keeps everyone on their toes, new developments, exciting designs, efficient engines, FAST engines, handling improvements and safety increased but…It's fine you're happy with your BMW (I don't even have to look on your profile to know you own at least one), but it's not really credible just dismissing the competition. Don't forget, competition is good. If BMW was the one and only (like you say -> "jag shouldn't even try, they won't get it as good"), your next BMW (be honest, you're not going to look at anything else, as they can't get close) will be a lot more expensive and they don't even have to try to make it better in any way.
Don’t you remember the launch of the XF? Everyone loved the XF, I wanted an XF, the interior looked amazing, the exterior looked so much better than anything else available to buy at the time, seeing it on the road I loved it, I wanted one (I couldn’t afford one).
The XE though hasn’t done anything to excite, you really have to pick through the bones to see anything about this car that is exciting. Don’t you agree?
The Evoque, I’m not keen but they looked great and thrilled at launch, the new Defender, good looking and capable, there will be a pre-order list for that but the new XE, is, well, meh, and because of that I draw the conclusion that the car itself and its engines and handling will also be ‘ordinary’.
This segment tends to be much more conservative - look at the e90 vs e60 for example.
knitware said:
The XE though hasn’t done anything to excite, you really have to pick through the bones to see anything about this car that is exciting. Don’t you agree?
This market segment doesn't reward "exciting". The XE is no more or less exciting than the 3-series, C-class, A4, etc..jpg)
I like this from the front but not too keen on the rear, I have been interested in this coming out and its positive Jag have a 3 series alternative I think, my main gripes are Jags old man image and perceived reliability.
The F-Type has helped massively regards the image I reckon but I wouldn't be that confident regards reliability with a JLR product but that could be me being overly harsh.
The F-Type has helped massively regards the image I reckon but I wouldn't be that confident regards reliability with a JLR product but that could be me being overly harsh.
"The EPAS is really a massive leap forward from what you may have experienced thus far, Jag's system now on a par, and possibly above even, the latest equivalents from Porsche"
Steerings good then
It looks like Jaguar have made the car dynamically better than its equivalents. That'd be enough to intrigue me if I was looking for this kind of car, unfortunately I'm in the minority.
It seems as though they've tried to play the game too, getting the MPG up and the Co2 down should interest the number chasing type (who would usually buy a BMW) Hopefully it will be a great success and allow Jag to keep improving.
Steerings good then
It looks like Jaguar have made the car dynamically better than its equivalents. That'd be enough to intrigue me if I was looking for this kind of car, unfortunately I'm in the minority.It seems as though they've tried to play the game too, getting the MPG up and the Co2 down should interest the number chasing type (who would usually buy a BMW) Hopefully it will be a great success and allow Jag to keep improving.
knitware said:
kambites said:
This market segment doesn't reward "exciting". The XE is no more or less exciting than the 3-series, C-class, A4, etc.
That is sad if true.Anyway, I "require" an estate so that back end will look completely different if it ever comes.
The XF looks miles bitter, and I might be tempted by picking up a "cheap" one second hand but, as said, the sat nav and stuff are properly ancient by today's standards.
Someone mentioned earlier that in older cars, we can just buy them and slot in a new unit and you're good to go. It's what I did on the 159 and SLK. Nowadays you're stuck with what's inside.
Also, these cars have to be a lot of things for a lot of people. They have to drive nice but still have feel, be "compact" but still hold a family of 4 and their stuff,...
For me, it's a car that I'll spend a lot of time in doing the commute, so interior and entertainment take a priority over handling. From what I've seen, the Merc has got the edge on all the rivals.
The 2016 (?) Mazda 6 was a very pleasant surprise, probably a lot less involving to drive but the interior looked great, entertainment was great and it's actually available as an estate.
In short, if Jag doesn't announce an estate this year, chances of me getting an XE are very slim.
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