RE: Lotus Exige Automatic spec confirmed

[Lowtimer]

It will be perfectly satisfactory to just about all their Chinese customers, and anyone here who wants an Exige and can't use a clutch pedal due to disability.

[DonkeyApple]

kambites said:

The question is just whether it's acceptable to a flappy-paddle buyer to have an appreciable delay between input and gear change; other cars have been thoroughly slated for it in the past. It's different when you're changing gear in a manual because the human action that you expect to engage the drivetrain (ie lifting the clutch) acts instantaneously.

Of course the answer is that some will be happy with it and some wont, but the big question for Lotus is "how many".

If no one tells them then they'll never know.

[Gary C]

DonkeyApple said:

I don't think a sequential would have increased sales. They need to sell to the larger market segment which is people who just want a car for the road and normal driving as that is 99.99% of the global car buying market.

A sequential box wouldn't tap that at all. It would merely be a niche option within their existing niche market so arguably wouldn't bring any relevant sales in at all.

At least by going this route they can suddenly tap into the various essential global markets such as the Far East where you must have an auto option.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if this is the biggest seller out of their new showrooms.

Lotus make road cars to need to start having products that appeal to the mainstream because they need that volume.

This simple addition has amazing potential for them and is a good thing.

You don't think a DSG style box would have been better recieved (despite being the direction for most respected performance cars) and a torque converter is better suited ?

We are talking about an exige aren't we ?

I do get the limitations of obtaining an easy to fit off the shelf unit for the current engine, and extending the market (which is good despite my dislike) but an exige is not really a car for Mr/Mrs average who wants to do normal driving. 99% of the car driving public are never going to buy an exige.

A DSG would have met the auto requirements as good if not better than this unit while being a better choice if only for pr (personally I would always choose a traditional manual)

[DonkeyApple]

Gary C said:

DonkeyApple said:

I don't think a sequential would have increased sales. They need to sell to the larger market segment which is people who just want a car for the road and normal driving as that is 99.99% of the global car buying market.

A sequential box wouldn't tap that at all. It would merely be a niche option within their existing niche market so arguably wouldn't bring any relevant sales in at all.

At least by going this route they can suddenly tap into the various essential global markets such as the Far East where you must have an auto option.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if this is the biggest seller out of their new showrooms.

Lotus make road cars to need to start having products that appeal to the mainstream because they need that volume.

This simple addition has amazing potential for them and is a good thing.

You don't think a DSG style box would have been better recieved (despite being the direction for most respected performance cars) and a torque converter is better suited ?

We are talking about an exige aren't we ?

I do get the limitations of obtaining an easy to fit off the shelf unit for the current engine, and extending the market (which is good despite my dislike) but an exige is not really a car for Mr/Mrs average who wants to do normal driving. 99% of the car driving public are never going to buy an exige.

A DSG would have met the auto requirements as good if not better than this unit while being a better choice if only for pr (personally I would always choose a traditional manual)

But you seem to be thinking that Lotus must only sell to serious drivers. That obviously isn't economically viable as well documented. The auto is simply so they can sell into the massively larger market of sports car owners who prefer to sit in urban traffic jams. At the same time they can't consider an auto option that would move the product into a higher price bracket as that will lose sales.

The global stats are that more people live in cities than the countryside and that city dwellers are wealthier. Ergo, Lotus need a car to sell to wealthy city dwellers. A manual has proven not to work in that regard. Every other higher end sports car manufacturer understands exactly who their core customer is and that's why they have autos. It's fantastic that Lotus have finally taken their head out of their arse and been forced to make a commercial descision rather than bang on about the same old pompous crap about being track focussed and adding lightness etc.

[Impasse]

DonkeyApple said:

The global stats are that more people live in cities than the countryside and that city dwellers are wealthier. Ergo, Lotus need a car to sell to wealthy city dwellers. A manual has proven not to work in that regard. Every other higher end sports car manufacturer understands exactly who their core customer is and that's why they have autos. It's fantastic that Lotus have finally taken their head out of their arse and been forced to make a commercial descision rather than bang on about the same old pompous crap about being track focussed and adding lightness etc.

Bahar knew this and tried to steer the company down that more lucrative route. Unfortunately, lots of internet forum users started frothing at the mouth and began boring on about core values, lightness and lap times.

[kambites]

Impasse said:

Bahar knew this and tried to steer the company down that more lucrative route. Unfortunately, lots of internet forum users started frothing at the mouth and began boring on about core values, lightness and lap times.

I think more unfortunately, he didn't have anywhere near enough investment lined up to make even one of the cars he promised, let alone five. Had his plans been realistic, no amount of internet ranting would have stopped them from happening. They weren't.

The new guy seems to have much the right idea, steering the company gradually in that direction rather than abandoning everything and relying on millions of pounds suddenly appearing from nowhere to start everything again from scratch.

I'm still not convinced that putting a slushbox in the Exige is the right way to go though. Except for a small number of people who physically can't drive a there-pedal car, I would have guessed that not many people who'd want an automatic wouldn't prefer an Evora in other ways anyway. Mind you, I'm looking at it from the UK market point of view and that's clearly not where this car is aimed.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 3rd February 14:05

[Lowtimer]

Indeed. It is clearly for the Middle East and China.

[Claudia Skies]

Lowtimer said:

It will be perfectly satisfactory to ... anyone here who wants an Exige and can't use a clutch pedal due to disability.

And how, exactly, is that disabled person going to get into his/her Exige through the inadequate door opening, which is one of the main reasons Lotus can't sell more of these cars?

[braddo]

I don't know if it's still the case, but years ago in Australia I found it striking how so many of the young guys from east Asia (whether it's China, Japan, Taiwan etc) had modified cars which were automatics.

They were often quite heavily modified (and presumably uncomfortable) - slammed suspension, big wheels, bodykits, very loud exhausts - but automatic and often slow.

I can easily see how an automatic Exige would sell over there in that it looks very hardcore and dramatic but would be a doddle to drive.

[leglessAlex]

Claudia Skies said:

Lowtimer said:

It will be perfectly satisfactory to ... anyone here who wants an Exige and can't use a clutch pedal due to disability.

And how, exactly, is that disabled person going to get into his/her Exige through the inadequate door opening, which is one of the main reasons Lotus can't sell more of these cars?

Well, my disability means it's actually easier for me to get into the likes of an Exige, less of me to get in there

As I explained earlier in the thread how someone in a wheelchair might get into the car. The term 'disabled' covers an awful lot and many of those people would be able to get into the car but not use the pedals. An automatic and hand controls would be perfect, which I intend on doing as soon as I have the money. I've wanted a V6 Exige since they came out.

[RobM77]

leglessAlex said:

Claudia Skies said:

Lowtimer said:

It will be perfectly satisfactory to ... anyone here who wants an Exige and can't use a clutch pedal due to disability.

And how, exactly, is that disabled person going to get into his/her Exige through the inadequate door opening, which is one of the main reasons Lotus can't sell more of these cars?

Well, my disability means it's actually easier for me to get into the likes of an Exige, less of me to get in there

As I explained earlier in the thread how someone in a wheelchair might get into the car. The term 'disabled' covers an awful lot and many of those people would be able to get into the car but not use the pedals. An automatic and hand controls would be perfect, which I intend on doing as soon as I have the money. I've wanted a V6 Exige since they came out.

The Caterham Club (L7C) had at least one wheelchair bound disabled guy - he loved his 7.

[DonkeyApple]

Impasse said:

DonkeyApple said:

The global stats are that more people live in cities than the countryside and that city dwellers are wealthier. Ergo, Lotus need a car to sell to wealthy city dwellers. A manual has proven not to work in that regard. Every other higher end sports car manufacturer understands exactly who their core customer is and that's why they have autos. It's fantastic that Lotus have finally taken their head out of their arse and been forced to make a commercial descision rather than bang on about the same old pompous crap about being track focussed and adding lightness etc.

Bahar knew this and tried to steer the company down that more lucrative route. Unfortunately, lots of internet forum users started frothing at the mouth and began boring on about core values, lightness and lap times.

It's a shame that he went about what they needed to do in such a farcical manner. The market only wanted one car. But the owners backed him because they knew how important it was to deliver a new product that was focussed on urban posing and ease than track focus. Lotus are very obviously going to keep making their more track focussed cars, thank God, but this simple addition has the ability to suddenly tap more easily into the hugely important female market as well as the more casual car enthusiast.

I'd also put money on the fact that the majority of Lotus owners would be faster round a track in this stty slow slush pump wagon than the manual.

[Oilchange]

Get in there mate! Live the dream.

I supported one of the cars at the Race of Remembrance at Anglesey in November, several disabled racers on the grid.

leglessAlex said:

Well, my disability means it's actually easier for me to get into the likes of an Exige, less of me to get in there

As I explained earlier in the thread how someone in a wheelchair might get into the car. The term 'disabled' covers an awful lot and many of those people would be able to get into the car but not use the pedals. An automatic and hand controls would be perfect, which I intend on doing as soon as I have the money. I've wanted a V6 Exige since they came out.

[DeltonaS]

Wills2 said:

SMGII changed gear in 80ms over 10 years ago, not sure I'd be crowing about that time if I were Lotus.

That's utter, utter crap and nonsense.....

An F430 Scuderia, presented in late 2007, shifts in 160ms and was/is one of, if not the fastes shifting automated manuals...

SMG's where never that fast and good.

O and by the way; the online footage doesn't promise anything good with regard to the shifting speed; doesn't look nowhere near as fast as a 160ms shift to me. (or is it a recording fault; It def. looks like there's a lag between the shift and sound of the shift ??)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUfy8eLuyw8

Edited by DeltonaS on Tuesday 3rd February 20:25

[hondansx]

The SMGII shifts in 80ms in S6 mode. The F430 Scud does it in 60ms.

[Gary C]

DonkeyApple said:

But you seem to be thinking that Lotus must only sell to serious drivers. That obviously isn't economically viable as well documented. The auto is simply so they can sell into the massively larger market of sports car owners who prefer to sit in urban traffic jams. At the same time they can't consider an auto option that would move the product into a higher price bracket as that will lose sales.

The global stats are that more people live in cities than the countryside and that city dwellers are wealthier. Ergo, Lotus need a car to sell to wealthy city dwellers. A manual has proven not to work in that regard. Every other higher end sports car manufacturer understands exactly who their core customer is and that's why they have autos. It's fantastic that Lotus have finally taken their head out of their arse and been forced to make a commercial descision rather than bang on about the same old pompous crap about being track focussed and adding lightness etc.

I seem to be arguing that an auto with a torque converter is not ideal for what has always been a reasonably focused performance car.

I can see the arguments for the current auto box as being cheap enough to satisfy the market you have identified as important (I'm not disagreeing) but is that a stop gap and should lotus not be sourcing a double clutch unit in the near future.

Surely that would be the ideal auto for this car.

Every other higher end sports car has an auto available you say, are they all torque converter boxes ?, I don't think so.

VW would be the obvious source for a box but I imagine that would not be easy politically. Surprised toyota have not got a DC unit ready to go, maybe the lotus would make a good test bed

Edited by Gary C on Wednesday 4th February 06:36

[Lowtimer]

Gary C said:

I seem to be arguing that an auto with a torque converter is not ideal for what has always been a reasonably focused performance car.

I can see the arguments for the current auto box as being cheap enough to satisfy the market you have identified as important (I'm not disagreeing) but is that a stop gap and should lotus not be sourcing a double clutch unit in the near future.

I think the point is that it doesn't matter commercially, and they have no motive to make the car significantly more expensive and/or delay its introduction. Toyota shows no interest in double clutch boxes for small / engined cars, being more concerned with hybrids and CVTs, and its experience with a single clutch automated manual box in the MR2 was not a particularly happy one. There was some talk they they might bring something out for the big engined cars in 2-3 years time but frankly given the rate of progress towards hybrid systems and electric assist I would be surprised if that ever happened now.

It would be commercially pretty dodgy of Lotus to embark on a big and costly engineering project to mate someone else's transmission box to a Toyota engine, even if VW were prepared to see one of their boxes used in such an application.

You've already said you would never buy a two-pedal Exige, and I imagine the market amongst the traditional Lotus buyers in Europe and USA for a DSG version would be tiny because most of them think like you. For the emerging markets the two-pedal car is aimed at the epicylic transmission will do just fine, at least until Lotus ditch the current engine line-up, and the ability to offer the car in Europe / USA for the few who actually need a two pedal car is just a useful spin-off.

Of course if they then make a wholesale switch away from Toyota to VAG drivetrains then they will be able to go down the DSG route at more reasonable cost, but that would be a massive change in supplier policy.

Edited by Lowtimer on Wednesday 4th February 07:04

[DonkeyApple]

Gary C said:

DonkeyApple said:

But you seem to be thinking that Lotus must only sell to serious drivers. That obviously isn't economically viable as well documented. The auto is simply so they can sell into the massively larger market of sports car owners who prefer to sit in urban traffic jams. At the same time they can't consider an auto option that would move the product into a higher price bracket as that will lose sales.

The global stats are that more people live in cities than the countryside and that city dwellers are wealthier. Ergo, Lotus need a car to sell to wealthy city dwellers. A manual has proven not to work in that regard. Every other higher end sports car manufacturer understands exactly who their core customer is and that's why they have autos. It's fantastic that Lotus have finally taken their head out of their arse and been forced to make a commercial descision rather than bang on about the same old pompous crap about being track focussed and adding lightness etc.

I seem to be arguing that an auto with a torque converter is not ideal for what has always been a reasonably focused performance car.

I can see the arguments for the current auto box as being cheap enough to satisfy the market you have identified as important (I'm not disagreeing) but is that a stop gap and should lotus not be sourcing a double clutch unit in the near future.

Surely that would be the ideal auto for this car.

Every other higher end sports car has an auto available you say, are they all torque converter boxes ?, I don't think so.

VW would be the obvious source for a box but I imagine that would not be easy politically. Surprised toyota have not got a DC unit ready to go, maybe the lotus would make a good test bed

Edited by Gary C on Wednesday 4th February 06:36

I think you are right. You've got to remember that Lotus is up against the wall. They really fked up with the Bahar Plan and pissed away the biggest chunk of money they had ever been given. They aren't going to see that again for a very long time. They are busy cutting costs but also trying to expand sales. I suspect that every new dealership they opened East of here was asking for auto cars and that this unit was the most cost effective solution in terms of parts, design, time and money.

The trouble with any other option other than a basic box that had already been mates to that engine, which I was lead to believe this one has is that it would be hugely expensive. And let's face it, they are only going to be selling a few hundred of these in year one and they wouldn't have been able to pass that cost on to the customer so it would have been a total failure from the start.

If this proves a success then I'm sure they will look at other options but let's be really honest, the customers just won't notice what it is just so long as the media doesn't tell them it's wrong. Autos are to allow uplift in urban sales all the guff about speed of gear changes is just media spin to sell the story that it's ok to have a sports car and never do anything sporty in it.

As soon as you have a car that can sit in traffic all day and not be a constant hassle of mechanical engagement, can be driven by the valet, can make the owner look a better driver, can make parking and low speed maneuvering easy then you start to have a product that appeals to the wider market. A brand like Lotus should have done well against the Boxster and SLK by pitching the concept of being more manly and more for the real driver but they failed to understand that they still needed to play the game and deliver some basic driving tools.

Next step is to fit a sleeker looking body to the Evora and call it the Esprit

What is really going in Lotus' favour is the fact that all the competitors are ditching cylinders and by the end of this year Lotus aren't going to be standing out as having the smaller unit etc. that market is really coming to them and they should make the most of it. But Lotus PR has been naff for so long they will probably balls that up.

[Impasse]

Exige Auto driven clicky.

[kambites]

DonkeyApple said:

Next step is to fit a sleeker looking body to the Evora and call it the Esprit

I think releasing something called an "Esprit" with a transverse engine would be a mistake. Too many people would discount it purely for that, regardless of how it drove.