RE: Shed Of The Week: Citroen Saxo VTS
Discussion
Wife had one of these for four years. Exact same version as shed - run-out VTS bought as a low-mileage pre-reg from dealer. An utter gem to drive. Only problems were a dodgy alarm fixed under warranty and an alternator that packed up around the 30k miles mark - £70 and very little effort to fix.
Would still have it otherwise. It was mint when we sold it with just a cone filter, Magnex exhaust and 17" TSWs mods. Still see it occasionally on the M8 many years later.
PS. Deceptively great load lugger too. We once went to collect a 32" CRT television complete in its packaging. Trollied it to the back of the car and a bloke nearby stopped and said "I want to see how that box is going to fit into that car". Went in no problem, mainly thanks to the width of the loadspace which has no suspension turrets because of the latitudally mounted shock absorbers and torsion bar springs rather than coils. Also helped with the centre of gravity of course (which is why they were such great handlers).
graham22 said:
didn't the Saxos have a plastic steering wheel whereas the 106 GTI had leather.
Yup, but the Peugeot 106/306 leather wheels could be fitted and there were always a plentiful supply of them on ebay from all the crashed ones....devnull said:
I've always been put off driving a Saxo when you see how utterly shocking they are in crashes (and I've seen a few...). They seem to just fold up into cube ready for the scrapheap, regardless of whether you're still in it or not.
This was ultimately the reason why we sold it. Wife's sister was involved in a head-on in a FIAT with a better N-CAP rating that the Saxo and she was still injured. The accident got us thinking and with our daughter just on the scene we concluded the Saxo was a risk too far. Would still have it otherwise. It was mint when we sold it with just a cone filter, Magnex exhaust and 17" TSWs mods. Still see it occasionally on the M8 many years later.
PS. Deceptively great load lugger too. We once went to collect a 32" CRT television complete in its packaging. Trollied it to the back of the car and a bloke nearby stopped and said "I want to see how that box is going to fit into that car". Went in no problem, mainly thanks to the width of the loadspace which has no suspension turrets because of the latitudally mounted shock absorbers and torsion bar springs rather than coils. Also helped with the centre of gravity of course (which is why they were such great handlers).
Edited by r11co on Friday 30th January 12:48
nicolelh said:
I wouldnt agree with all the faults listed in the article..
I've had my VTS nearly 3 years and before that I had a VTR, a westcoast (1.4) and an S1 1.1 106.
I rarely ever see a VTS on the road anymore, as the sheds get scrapped or written off, I feel like it's just leaving real enthusiasts.
I wouldnt say that shed of the week was a particularly great buy or a good standard example!
There's still a few good examples out there though for sure
mine -
OH's -
Both daily drivers and used on track
we both have second cars but can't part with these little tins lol
Lovely cars mate! Have wanted one since I was 17, and the itch hasn't dissapeared with age (25 now). I've had my VTS nearly 3 years and before that I had a VTR, a westcoast (1.4) and an S1 1.1 106.
I rarely ever see a VTS on the road anymore, as the sheds get scrapped or written off, I feel like it's just leaving real enthusiasts.
I wouldnt say that shed of the week was a particularly great buy or a good standard example!
There's still a few good examples out there though for sure
mine -
OH's -
Both daily drivers and used on track
we both have second cars but can't part with these little tins lolAlso, as you said, these are getting seriously rare now (if you're looking for a good one, with no bodykits etc).
Kitchski said:
Ah, my daily driver!:
Quite a few inaccuracies in the article (140bhp from a decat, manifold and induction kit?!?), but it's a good read. Ultimately, having had the VTR and the VTS engines in the same cars, I can report there are MASSIVE differences in the way they go. Up until around 2500rpm, they're probably even, but the VTS takes off at around 3500rpm and keeps it on the boil until 6500rpm. The gearing is much shorter, too, and the performance difference is quite a wide one (despite what VTR owners will try and tell you).
They are very rattly, and ours in particular eats bushes, ball joints, gaiters....all that kinda of thing. Very easy to work on though, and a lot of fun.
VTR vs VTS probably right, I stand corrected. Rose-tintedness always adds 20bhp at least Quite a few inaccuracies in the article (140bhp from a decat, manifold and induction kit?!?), but it's a good read. Ultimately, having had the VTR and the VTS engines in the same cars, I can report there are MASSIVE differences in the way they go. Up until around 2500rpm, they're probably even, but the VTS takes off at around 3500rpm and keeps it on the boil until 6500rpm. The gearing is much shorter, too, and the performance difference is quite a wide one (despite what VTR owners will try and tell you).
They are very rattly, and ours in particular eats bushes, ball joints, gaiters....all that kinda of thing. Very easy to work on though, and a lot of fun.
I do remember test driving a VTS from the garage that sold me the VTR (just chucked me the keys, and I took it out with a mate - yup, I was pretty surprised too!). I remember thinking how quick it was at the time. I went for the VTR as it was something like 2-3k cheaper, half the insurance group - and the insurance was included at the time. Even at 24 that was worth a bit. BUT the biggest difference between the two? The VTS had ACTUAL REAR HEADRESTS, seemed impressive at the time!
ETA: Bought new, sold at 3 years old so no experience of working on it. I did sell to my best mate though, who then suffered all the usual work needed... And a few years before that I started seeing his ex a bit too soon after they split up... God, I really had a cheek to ask him to be the best man 5 years later! (Different girl, I wasn't THAT much of an arse!)
Edited by paulmaurice99 on Friday 30th January 12:48
paulmaurice99 said:
Krikkit said:
paulmaurice99 said:
Mine (a relatively humble VTR - though the difference between the VTR and the VTS was very similar to the difference between 8v and 16v Golf, ie. not very much unless you had the space to push past 5k rpm in every gear)
Not quite - the softer ARB's spoilt the snappyness of the handling, and the VTR's 8v engine was choked of its buzzyness by a ridiculously long set of gear ratios in the VTR box.And I'd forgotten the longer ratios - on the flipside that made it a really long-legged (relatively) motorway car, which is not something you'd expect of a car like that. That's something I do remember what with it being my only car. The E36 328 auto that replaced it seemed to have intergalactic gearing after that...
VTR definitely had an advantage on the motorway, try an 106 S1 Rallye some time with its ridiculously short gearing! 70 is nearly 4k RPM. The VTR had both different gear ratios and a different final drive, both of which made the revs more like a normal car.
Blackpuddin said:
Kitchski said:
Quite a few inaccuracies in the article (140bhp from a decat, manifold and induction kit?!?)
A 20bhp hike over standard doesn't seem that unlikely. billy939 said:
Kitchski said:
Quite a few inaccuracies in the article (140bhp from a decat, manifold and induction kit?!?), but it's a good read.
I wouldn't say it is too inaccurate. My 106 Gti made 133bhp at the fly with decat, manifold and an induction kit, that was on the same day other GTIs made 115bhp to 130bhp with varying breathing mods. I then changed the exhuast and induction which made it a lot more responsive and I think with another dyno run it would have made closer to 140bhp, it was certainly bloody quick! I had a Saxo Vtr beforehand as well, either the VTS or GTI are both brilliant cars. I challenge anyone to have a good drive in one and not be smiling!
Perhaps inaccuracies was strong, but there are a few misconceptions in the article. They're only things you'd spot if you were a Saxo anorak though, in fairness
Edited by Kitchski on Friday 30th January 13:33
I had a VTS as my first car when I just turned 19. Dangerous, dangerous toy but great fun. Think the VTS had a worse safety rating vs. the standard saxo from memory. Sold mine on to my friend and then it went to my brother until he parted with it in 2013 :
They are a lot quicker than the article states. 0-60 was timed at 7.0 seconds dead on mine and a good friend of mine had a silver one (also 1998) and his was timed at 7.2 seconds (same as the official timed 0-60 per citroen & top gear magazine). Another friend at the time had a VTR (8V instead of 16V) and even that could manage 0-60 timed in 8.9 seconds.
They are a lot quicker than the article states. 0-60 was timed at 7.0 seconds dead on mine and a good friend of mine had a silver one (also 1998) and his was timed at 7.2 seconds (same as the official timed 0-60 per citroen & top gear magazine). Another friend at the time had a VTR (8V instead of 16V) and even that could manage 0-60 timed in 8.9 seconds.
KimJongHealthy said:
devnull said:
I'd love a VTS as a toy. However, I've always been put off driving a Saxo when you see how utterly shocking they are in crashes (and I've seen a few...). They seem to just fold up into cube ready for the scrapheap, regardless of whether you're still in it or not. A work colleague of mine had one, understeered on a roundabout, mounted the kerb and came to a rest with the complete dashboard in his lap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a8PTeFDaYU
compare that to the same 2000 Euro NCAP crash test of a Lupo...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYsVGRHlL80
Keep looking at these.
Got a VTR in 2002 from Arnold Clark Citroen in Perth. £8888, 5 years 0% finance, one years free insurance.
Was my second car after a 1.4 Almera, was a rather nice step up!
First time I ever discovered what lift-off oversteer was alarmed me to say the least then as a stupid youngster it became used too much until it bit when I never expected it. Still no idea how I made it off the roundabout without hitting anything.
Shortly after that one of the motoring programs (think it was Top Gear) did a crash feature naming the Saxo as one of the worst cars to crash in and I sold it on. Had also taken up mountain biking so getting a bigger motor was part of the reason...
VTS seems a very good track day option for the cash.
Got a VTR in 2002 from Arnold Clark Citroen in Perth. £8888, 5 years 0% finance, one years free insurance.
Was my second car after a 1.4 Almera, was a rather nice step up!
First time I ever discovered what lift-off oversteer was alarmed me to say the least then as a stupid youngster it became used too much until it bit when I never expected it. Still no idea how I made it off the roundabout without hitting anything.
Shortly after that one of the motoring programs (think it was Top Gear) did a crash feature naming the Saxo as one of the worst cars to crash in and I sold it on. Had also taken up mountain biking so getting a bigger motor was part of the reason...
VTS seems a very good track day option for the cash.
Kitchski said:
Decat made no difference to ours (132bhp, either way - lots of Saxos I put on our dyno kick out more than standard!), and the induction kit makes little to no difference to any N/A car, let alone a Saxo. Standard manifold can be improved on, but you're into the world of cams to start squeezing another genuine 20bhp from one.
Exactly this. Induction kit, manifold, decat, exhaust, kent cams and a remap saw 150bhp at the fly for mine back in the day. I still miss mine 5 years after parting with her despite now owning a M3 CSL which speaks volumes for how much fun they are!Clicked the Youtube link above and never realised how many Saxo VTS-related road tests there are on there:
Top Gear GTi v.s Fiesta Zetec S and Corsa SRi pt1.
Top Gear GTi v.s Fiesta Zetec S and Corsa SRi pt1.
Old Top Gear with young Clarkson vs. 106 GTi, Punto GT and a Polo of some sort
Richard Hammond in a previous life comparing a VTS to a Caterham!
Old Top Gear - Tiff vs. VBH in Clio 172/Saxo VTS track dual
Top Gear GTi v.s Fiesta Zetec S and Corsa SRi pt1.
Top Gear GTi v.s Fiesta Zetec S and Corsa SRi pt1.
Old Top Gear with young Clarkson vs. 106 GTi, Punto GT and a Polo of some sort
Richard Hammond in a previous life comparing a VTS to a Caterham!
Old Top Gear - Tiff vs. VBH in Clio 172/Saxo VTS track dual
KimJongHealthy said:
VF7 said:
KimJongHealthy said:
devnull said:
I'd love a VTS as a toy. However, I've always been put off driving a Saxo when you see how utterly shocking they are in crashes (and I've seen a few...). They seem to just fold up into cube ready for the scrapheap, regardless of whether you're still in it or not. A work colleague of mine had one, understeered on a roundabout, mounted the kerb and came to a rest with the complete dashboard in his lap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a8PTeFDaYU compare that to the same 2000 Euro NCAP crash test of a Lupo...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYsVGRHlL80
MR2 vs Saxo fine. MR2 vs MX5 or MR2 or similar would probably be alright; MR2 or anything like it vs something like an X6, or even one of the new HMS Mondeos would be pretty one-sided. Anyhoo...
paulmaurice99 said:
That's what bugs me a bit about NCAP - I know they can't really do anything BUT compare similar cars, but if you're after a really safe car, it suggests to most people that a 5 star car is equal to another 5 star car. But as you say, it doesn't quite work that way. I was in the MR2 in the summer, with my car-mad 6 year old in the car with me, and we parked alongside a Range Rover Sport. Just looking at it - especially the height compared to us - and imagining that running into the side of us scared the wotsit out of me. Same for 95% of the vans on the road.
MR2 vs Saxo fine. MR2 vs MX5 or MR2 or similar would probably be alright; MR2 or anything like it vs something like an X6, or even one of the new HMS Mondeos would be pretty one-sided. Anyhoo...
It's true, the NCAP thing is a bit misleading. All the cars are tested at set speeds, set angles and conditions etc. But that doesn't happen on the road - crashes can come at your from all mother of angles and situations. When I used to work in a bodyshop, we had a 1.1 Saxo in the T/L yard. Totally wrecked! Roof kinked, A-pillar bent....passenger would have had some leg injuries. I looked at it and thought "And I'm driving home in one of those!" Spoke to the assessor, who confirmed passenger was in hospital but stable. When I mentioned how it didn't fill me with much confidence, he said "I dunno, it did pretty well considering it took on the side of a truck at 50mph!" We then looked at the Primera over the yard, which had crashed at 30ish into a tree. Driver went away in an air ambulance from that one....MR2 vs Saxo fine. MR2 vs MX5 or MR2 or similar would probably be alright; MR2 or anything like it vs something like an X6, or even one of the new HMS Mondeos would be pretty one-sided. Anyhoo...
Kitchski said:
Quite a few inaccuracies in the article (140bhp from a decat, manifold and induction kit?!?)
Certainly is possible mate, I made 150bhp on Interpro's rollers with that and a bit of headwork, standard cams.ETA: forgot I had a full Powerflow system as well
Edited by TankRizzo on Friday 30th January 16:37
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