Advice : BMW warranty claim
Discussion
em177 said:
Driver101 said:
The dividing line between track days and racing is very slim. I'd say it doesn't exist on many occasions.
Have you done either? Apart from the obvious differences, how would you say a track day doesn't come close to racing?
People are still on track driving their cars as fast as they possible can.
Driver101 said:
Although track days aren't technically racing, people are still trying to go as fast as they can, setting the best times and getting ahead of the other cars.
Even if you aren't racing door to door with the other cars, you are racing yourself to be as quick as you can.
You're also putting far more strain on the car for periods of time you just couldn't do on public roads.
Reading some of the comments about track days it sounds like everyone turns up for a peaceful Sunday afternoon drive.
The dividing line between track days and racing is very slim. I'd say it doesn't exist on many occasions.
Not everyone can or would want to drive like an F1 driver, the ordinary punter will only drive as fast and as skillfully as their own talent allows, granted the talent is often tested and runs out, but it doesn't result in a blown engine, more a collision with the Armco/other car.Even if you aren't racing door to door with the other cars, you are racing yourself to be as quick as you can.
You're also putting far more strain on the car for periods of time you just couldn't do on public roads.
Reading some of the comments about track days it sounds like everyone turns up for a peaceful Sunday afternoon drive.
The dividing line between track days and racing is very slim. I'd say it doesn't exist on many occasions.
If a modern car can't survive a trackday without going pop, you're better off on a bike/bus/train etc.
Great news on the result OP.
Driver101 said:
Yes.
Apart from the obvious differences, how would you say a track day doesn't come close to racing?
People are still on track driving their cars as fast as they possible can.
To a point I agree with you, but it doesn't matter. One is competitive, the other is not, that's all that matters. That's the distinction BMW want to use in their warranty wording and that's what they are held to.Apart from the obvious differences, how would you say a track day doesn't come close to racing?
People are still on track driving their cars as fast as they possible can.
If the exclusion was 'driving very fast on a track' they could have refused.
Edited by fourspoons on Thursday 5th February 15:55
Driver101 said:
Yes.
Apart from the obvious differences, how would you say a track day doesn't come close to racing?
People are still on track driving their cars as fast as they possible can.
Excluding the obvious differences. What's the differences between a BMW M235 and a Cessna 172?Apart from the obvious differences, how would you say a track day doesn't come close to racing?
People are still on track driving their cars as fast as they possible can.
The obvious differences are the differences that make the difference.
In your 1st post you mention trying to beat times. I've no idea what time I've done on any trackday. It's not important. Why would I care?
If I feel something a bit odd I'll pull in and check it out. You don't do that in a race. You take extra care of the car on a trackday knowing you'll be driving it home later, and to work tomorrow. A race car you might drive until it dies, or the end of the race, whichever comes sooner.
Competition makes people do dumb things. (That's why people post dumb things on here. They think it's a competition in looking clever). Removing the competition, as on a trackday, removes a lot of the dumb decisions which is better for the car mechanically and reduces the risk of body damage.
People do obsess about their times. Maybe many don't, but many do. Obviously the circuit isn't recording times and you are not scoring points to win a championship, but many people take them a lot more seriously than a little jaunt around the track.
Spend a few minutes on YouTube and you'll find lots of videos with people analysing their lap times, cars they got past and driving dangerously trying to go faster than they safely can.
I appreciate it isn't racing by the letter, but it's still driving your car harder than its intended purpose with the aim of going as fast as you can. Mistakes are common on track days as are people are pushing it.
Spend a few minutes on YouTube and you'll find lots of videos with people analysing their lap times, cars they got past and driving dangerously trying to go faster than they safely can.
I appreciate it isn't racing by the letter, but it's still driving your car harder than its intended purpose with the aim of going as fast as you can. Mistakes are common on track days as are people are pushing it.
In a race you might keep driving through a few issues, ignore some warning lights and messages, cut corners and bump over kerbs to get the best time, put on slick tyres etc.
In an open pit lane event most will do a warm up lap a few faster laps and then a cool down lap and then give their car a rest and check over before repeating. Any warning lights and most would slow down and come straight in or stop on track if it was a red engine type light.
In an open pit lane event most will do a warm up lap a few faster laps and then a cool down lap and then give their car a rest and check over before repeating. Any warning lights and most would slow down and come straight in or stop on track if it was a red engine type light.
Driver101 said:
People do obsess about their times. Maybe many don't, but many do. Obviously the circuit isn't recording times and you are not scoring points to win a championship, but many people take them a lot more seriously than a little jaunt around the track.
Spend a few minutes on YouTube and you'll find lots of videos with people analysing their lap times, cars they got past and driving dangerously trying to go faster than they safely can.
I appreciate it isn't racing by the letter, but it's still driving your car harder than its intended purpose with the aim of going as fast as you can. Mistakes are common on track days as are people are pushing it.
Driving a "performance" car harder than it's intended use is quantified how though? Spend a few minutes on YouTube and you'll find lots of videos with people analysing their lap times, cars they got past and driving dangerously trying to go faster than they safely can.
I appreciate it isn't racing by the letter, but it's still driving your car harder than its intended purpose with the aim of going as fast as you can. Mistakes are common on track days as are people are pushing it.
Would taking it too hard accelerating to the red-line, and then dropping down a gear? Yeah, it probably would.
However, would driving the car responsibly by keeping it off of the rev limiter and not changing down 2 gears at a time cause enough wear to cause the engine to blow? No. But frankly, any car sold and marketing as a "performance" car and has videos all over the internet of it being slid around roundabouts, and showing viewers how to drift, if that car breaks when a user tries to replicate it on a track, how is that taking it harder than it's designed limits.
Surely, if it was beyond it's design capabilities, then every video of CH sliding a car, or BMW showing 4 M235i's being slid around in South Africa would need a warning on the bottom telling people not to replicate it.
But frankly, using a car exuberantly does not quantify it being "ragged" or used beyond it's design limits; if anything, it's been used to it's limits and some cars like being used properly.
OP: That's great news for you, but such a shame it took so much effort to get there.
Munter said:
Driver101 said:
Yes.
Apart from the obvious differences, how would you say a track day doesn't come close to racing?
People are still on track driving their cars as fast as they possible can.
Excluding the obvious differences. What's the differences between a BMW M235 and a Cessna 172?Apart from the obvious differences, how would you say a track day doesn't come close to racing?
People are still on track driving their cars as fast as they possible can.
The obvious differences are the differences that make the difference.
In your 1st post you mention trying to beat times. I've no idea what time I've done on any trackday. It's not important. Why would I care?
If I feel something a bit odd I'll pull in and check it out. You don't do that in a race. You take extra care of the car on a trackday knowing you'll be driving it home later, and to work tomorrow. A race car you might drive until it dies, or the end of the race, whichever comes sooner.
Competition makes people do dumb things. (That's why people post dumb things on here. They think it's a competition in looking clever). Removing the competition, as on a trackday, removes a lot of the dumb decisions which is better for the car mechanically and reduces the risk of body damage.
A lot of the guys at club racing days don't have the budget to break cars. Their driving is often more civilised and courteous than many people on a track day, and more mechanically sympathetic to their cars as well.
My opinion stands that the obvious differences aren't quite as significant as people try to make out. I've absolutely no idea why from what I've posted, you've compared a car to a plane?
Has your wife/girlfriend got a penis, or can you see where the lines are drawn between a human male and female?
Edited by Driver101 on Thursday 5th February 17:56
Driver101 said:
Munter said:
Driver101 said:
Yes.
Apart from the obvious differences, how would you say a track day doesn't come close to racing?
People are still on track driving their cars as fast as they possible can.
Excluding the obvious differences. What's the differences between a BMW M235 and a Cessna 172?Apart from the obvious differences, how would you say a track day doesn't come close to racing?
People are still on track driving their cars as fast as they possible can.
The obvious differences are the differences that make the difference.
In your 1st post you mention trying to beat times. I've no idea what time I've done on any trackday. It's not important. Why would I care?
If I feel something a bit odd I'll pull in and check it out. You don't do that in a race. You take extra care of the car on a trackday knowing you'll be driving it home later, and to work tomorrow. A race car you might drive until it dies, or the end of the race, whichever comes sooner.
Competition makes people do dumb things. (That's why people post dumb things on here. They think it's a competition in looking clever). Removing the competition, as on a trackday, removes a lot of the dumb decisions which is better for the car mechanically and reduces the risk of body damage.
A lot of the guys at club racing days don't have the budget to break cars. Their driving is often more civilised and courteous than many people on a track day, and more mechanically sympathetic to their cars as well.
My opinion stands that the obvious differences aren't quite as significant as people try to make out. I've absolutely no idea why from what I've posted, you've compared a car to a plane?
Has your wife/girlfriend got a penis, or can you see where the lines are drawn between a human male and female?
Edited by Driver101 on Thursday 5th February 17:56
As has been pointed out, warm up lap, a few fast laps (usually getting faster as lines get smoother), cool down lap, have a break.
I've never seen anyone on track go balls out from the off, for 10-15 laps, then stamp on the anchors to get in the pits!
In racing you might (albeit gentlemanly but not always) go for a late brake pass, go for a gap that isn't quite there, rub someone during or coming out of a corner. All while usng every last inch of revs and tarmac if there's a sniff of a podium or beating your rival!
On ANY trackday, this behaviour is A) dangerous and would likely get you binned/banned from future events, or B) the quickest way to an accident or blowing your car up! You DO NOT overtake on corners (unless the other guy has slowed and indicated), you DO NOT try and beat every other car there, and you certainly DO NOT defend your line by weaving across the track! You might look back at the video to gauge where your strong/weak points are, but timing is out and will get you thrown off!
It's ludicrous to suggest racing is close to trackdays!
Rant over!
hora said:
What exactly caused the failure?
Freak?
Design?
That's more important
It's unlikely we will ever know. The dealership won't investigate it, the engine will be put in the crate the new one comes in and it will be sent back to the factory where it was assembled for forensic diagnosis. So BMW can learn what went wrong to enable them to make improvements in the future and to identify which supplier, if any, should be responsible for the bill. Probably including fitting the engine to the OP's car.Freak?
Design?
That's more important
A rod through the block normally means siezed big or little end, so my money would be on containmination blocking an oil gallery leading to oil starvation. Very rare, but it does happen.
Megaflow said:
It's unlikely we will ever know. The dealership won't investigate it, the engine will be put in the crate the new one comes in and it will be sent back to the factory where it was assembled for forensic diagnosis.
Yes, that's exactly what they told me would happen. I don't think I'll ever know the root cause.Jim1556 said:
<snip>
It's ludicrous to suggest racing is close to trackdays!
Absolutely. I continue to be amazed how much crap gets spouted on a topic about which we should be a fairly knowledgeable bunch. Anyone who considers the two remotely similar has certainly never done both, and either drives unacceptably on track days or would fill their pants in ten seconds in an actual race.It's ludicrous to suggest racing is close to trackdays!
McSam said:
Jim1556 said:
<snip>
It's ludicrous to suggest racing is close to trackdays!
Absolutely. I continue to be amazed how much crap gets spouted on a topic about which we should be a fairly knowledgeable bunch. Anyone who considers the two remotely similar has certainly never done both, and either drives unacceptably on track days or would fill their pants in ten seconds in an actual race.It's ludicrous to suggest racing is close to trackdays!
Racing your car doesn't necessarily mean you are rubbing doors with other cars and throwing your car down every little gap up the inside. I fully appreciate that doesn't happen, or shouldn't happen, or track days.
What I said was drivers were driving their cars on track days in a manner that could be described as racing. They are driving as fast as they can, filming and recording lap times in competition to themselves and others.
That could be defined as racing as they are driving as fast as they can to keep up and get ahead of other cars on the track whilst monitoring lap times theselves. I understand that track days don't permit racing manoeuvres of overtaking, however that's not what I'm getting at. Up to the point of needing past another car people are testing themselves and their cars.
People are driving their cars hard and their engines are subject to all the stresses and strains that a car racing would be. Some of these track days allow more time on the track than a driver will get on a race day.
In terms of engines blowing up at the track after doing a track day, I can see why manufacturers may deem it to be racing. Cars are driving at high speed for lengthy periods way beyond how they could be driven on the roads. Your insurance company is quick to distinguish that track days aren't considered normal driving.
I'm sorry people are offended by my opinion. I fully understand the differences between racing and track days. However I do stand by my opinion that in terms of mechanical stresses and strains, their isn't that much difference between what a car goes through on a track day as it does racing. Yes racing it will be far more likely to be bumped and bashed, however both cars will be driven under heavy loads for long periods of time.
Many guys doing club racing take better care of their cars than guys on track days.
Although people want to put a big dividing line in, many people are technically "racing" on track days. It's not door to door racing, but they are using benchmarks to beat.
I think we've done the track day racing thing too much in this thread now and hopefully we can get back on topic.
fourspoons said:
RESULT
Just had a call from BMW UK. They are paying the claim in full.
They acknowledged that the car was not being driven in a competitive event and the damage is covered under the warranty.
To say I'm relieved is an understatement!!
Fair play to them, they did right in the end and came to an answer within a day, so I have to say I'm impressed.
Sometimes all that is required is a conversation with the organ grinder rather than the monkey Just had a call from BMW UK. They are paying the claim in full.
They acknowledged that the car was not being driven in a competitive event and the damage is covered under the warranty.
To say I'm relieved is an understatement!!
Fair play to them, they did right in the end and came to an answer within a day, so I have to say I'm impressed.
Driver101, I understand what you're trying to say but the key points against it are firstly that timing is strictly prohibited on ALL track days, and so is driving competitively - whether against others or yourself. It's really, really not about trying to beat people or benchmarks, and if it is you should be doing sprints or time attacks.
The second point is about mechanical sympathy. There are few times in a race car's life where it's not driven right to its limits, but again, track days aren't the same. You go out gently, bed the car and yourself in for a short time, do some quick laps, have a good cooldown period and then come in. It's also not a given that you'll be hammering down straights flat out all the time, I don't, I'll get to 100mph or so then slot fifth in and cool the car. I certainly agree that track days are far harder than normal road use and will be first to point that out to someone thinking of taking their pride and joy out on a circuit, but for the vast majority of track day drivers it's simply not in the same league as real racing, and specifically regarding the engine, not beyond what a very fast road driver could do.
The second point is about mechanical sympathy. There are few times in a race car's life where it's not driven right to its limits, but again, track days aren't the same. You go out gently, bed the car and yourself in for a short time, do some quick laps, have a good cooldown period and then come in. It's also not a given that you'll be hammering down straights flat out all the time, I don't, I'll get to 100mph or so then slot fifth in and cool the car. I certainly agree that track days are far harder than normal road use and will be first to point that out to someone thinking of taking their pride and joy out on a circuit, but for the vast majority of track day drivers it's simply not in the same league as real racing, and specifically regarding the engine, not beyond what a very fast road driver could do.
Just a minor update to say that the dealerships' initial estimates on a repair time frame were wildly optimistic.
It'll be 3 weeks since the breakdown this weekend. Apparently the new engine is in but there have been problems with a few other bits and a new fuel pump has gone on and some sensor has been ordered.
The car still hasn't actually moved so they still don't know if the gearbox is knackered or not yet.
Still, if I am looking on the positive side, 3 weeks in a manual 320d has at least totally reaffirmed by decision to buy a petrol automatic.
It'll be 3 weeks since the breakdown this weekend. Apparently the new engine is in but there have been problems with a few other bits and a new fuel pump has gone on and some sensor has been ordered.
The car still hasn't actually moved so they still don't know if the gearbox is knackered or not yet.
Still, if I am looking on the positive side, 3 weeks in a manual 320d has at least totally reaffirmed by decision to buy a petrol automatic.
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