RE: Ferrari 612 Scaglietti manual: PH Carpool

[RobM77]

soad said:

Jonny TVR said:

was the auto box sorted out by the time of the 599 and were there any manual 599's? were the late 612 auto's better than the early ones?

There were no manual 599s for the UK market (unless you have appetite for a LHD car), according to Chris Harris iirc?

Surely, Alonso and Massa (and their predecessors) are to blame. The obsession with paddle-shifts (flappy paddles, whatever you call them) - started on the race track...

I don't think you can blame the drivers; many would probably welcome the return of full manual gearboxes as it's another area where skill and consistency can play a part, and certainly all would be infuriated by the speed of a road car paddle shift. Racing has gradually evolved over the years from manual to sequential and then to paddles, but in engineering terms it's a totally different evolution stream to road car gearboxes, which are fundamentally different in engineering terms and don't lend themselves to seq operation due to the synchromesh, so the paddle shift lever itself is the only commonality - such a superficial connection is surely down to marketing, not engineering or driver preference?

[RobM77]

dino_jr said:

250GTE said:

I run a '61 250GTE

Blimey... Pics of your 250 please?

I looked at 250's profile, but no pic! I'd love to see it and the 575 as well if poss

Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 10th February 13:47

[jimmyslr]

soad said:

There were no manual 599s for the UK market (unless you have appetite for a LHD car), according to Chris Harris iirc?

There are one or two manual rhd 599s I believe but they are exceptionally rare. DK Engineering had one a year or so back and I heard a rumour one was coming to the market (via Bramley Motors) quite recently.

[haroonok]

the F-1 shift on the late 612's is fantastic actually-can't imagine the car without it.
took mine to italy last year and the car was perfect everywhere other then underground car parks due to the size of the thing!

[1ians]

unsprung said:

Traversing the Continent in a V12 grand tourer. Does driving enjoyment get any more classical than this? Countless moments to savour.

I saw a UK plated one in Calais yesterday and had the same thought! (Whilst I was there in my diesel family barge).

[RobM77]

1ians said:

unsprung said:

Traversing the Continent in a V12 grand tourer. Does driving enjoyment get any more classical than this? Countless moments to savour.

I saw a UK plated one in Calais yesterday and had the same thought! (Whilst I was there in my diesel family barge).

It's my dream for retirement! I suspect it'll take me fifteen years to work out how to sell the idea to my wife!

[Mogul]

250GTE said:

I will look on the US thread but I do remember the job was more complex than a simple unbolt the old , bolt on the new job, Possibly something to do with the ECU.

Would be interested to see some links to the threads you are referring to but it's clear that there's precious little evidence of anyone actually having completed an F1-ectomy on a 575M (or early 612) but equally, there's a lot of noise on the subject - no doubt fed by vested interests.

One interesting fact is that Ferrari certainly don't appear to be keen to encourage the conversion (like Aston Works Service do with Vanquish). Ferrari will however happily sell you an expensive HGTC 'upgrade' kit. Actually, I can see Ferrari's point here as the marginal profit that they might make on selling a few [hundred?] conversion kits could have the unwanted side effect of undermining their belief that the F1 system was always 'better'... Remember that they expected folk to shell-out 5% of the cars initial purchase price to spec. the F1 shift on the 575M so it could be seen as the wrong message if they were then to offer an expensive solution to junk it as not being fit for purpose (which should be beyond question).

Saying all that, you should know that the gearbox and clutch assembly on the manual and F1 versions of the 575M and early 612s are substantially identical (with the obvious exception that a separate/bolt on hydraulic system selects the gears based on your paddle inputs interpreted by an ECU as opposed to the traditional gearstick, rods and cables). There were some revisions along the way and the F1 system was incrementally improved here and there and an extra sensor or two may have been added to the later 'boxes but fundamentally, there would be no need to change out the gearbox or clutch hardware for any given model year on a like for like basis.

However, what's also clear is that the F1 system is 'integrated' and that means that at least one of the (multiple) ECUs will be specific to the F1 version but I haven't heard anything to suggest that the wiring loom is F1-specific so one less thing to worry about. At best, a conversion might be a plug-and-play job. Failing that, a dealership SD2 system might be required to get everything synced up as it should be but we're not talking about voodoo here, we just need someone to try it and report back!

In practice, and in the absence of factory support, sourcing the right parts could quickly become an expensive headache but at least on the 575M, there will be a plentiful supply of wrecked 550s from which to cannibalise the major components of the shifter mechanism. Sourcing suitable ECU's could be an issue though but it would not be beyond the wit of man to find a workable solution.

Back to the 612... the early cars share the late model 575M's F1 transmission but later in its life, the 612 Sessanta and One-To-One (OTO) editions acquired the 599s improved twin plate dry clutch. I don't believe that there were any twin plate clutch manual 612s built but clearly some special order manual 599s.

I think its clear that the market has spoken (and will continue to speak) here and that 'huge' premiums will be the order of the day for original manual 612s and 575Ms. One can never compete with the guy with deeper pockets, but let's not lose sight of the fact that such premiums do not accurately telegraph the intrinsic value of the (unquestionably) more interactive driving experience. It's close to the point that the price of a manual 575M would get you a matched pair of [manual] 550 and 575M F1s and that, IMO, would give you the best of both worlds.

Edited by Mogul on Wednesday 11th February 11:02

[Cheib]

jimmyslr said:

soad said:

There were no manual 599s for the UK market (unless you have appetite for a LHD car), according to Chris Harris iirc?

There are one or two manual rhd 599s I believe but they are exceptionally rare. DK Engineering had one a year or so back and I heard a rumour one was coming to the market (via Bramley Motors) quite recently.

DK tweeted just after Xmas that they were going to have it back "shortly".

[250GTE]

Informative post from Mogul above.
I agree that whilst there is interest in the subject to my knowledge a gear box switch has yet to occur, maybe something for the future if the diferential in price widens.
Discussions on the subject are burried in this rather extensive thread :
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/456-550-575-spons...

The thread is hosted by Vietnam vet fighter pilot who is a pretty remarkable chap and a great help on all things to do with Maranellos.

The F1 on the 599 was a step forward though still performs clunkily when used as an in town auto. There was a software upgrade at some stage of the models life.
They do seem to eat clutches though.
I think the engine in the 599 is Enzo derived, its definately different to the V12 in the 550/575/612.
Some people have said that it doesn't work well with a manual box having been designed from the start for an F1.

[Mogul]

I'm familiar with that site and that thread. There have been some others more focussed on the subject of manual conversions but as I mentioned, quite a bit of noise and a fair few 'vested interests' some of which comes from 575M manual owners

The clutch plate on the 575M is common to both manual and F1 versions and you don't hear many reports of premature clutch wear. Perhaps that's because most owners are mature enough not to abuse them too badly.

If you avoid launch control and reverse hill-starts F1 clutch life will be very similar to a manual. Regular fluid changes are probably a sensible precaution though and one does wonder what the 'boxes will be like at high mileages as at least with a manual shift you can nurse a gear home if you feel that a synchro is are weak but will the software sense the same resistance or just bang it home?

The later 575M and 612s are even more reliable as there were some hardware updates to the hydraulic system that first appeared on the early 575M as detailed in the thread that you linked that predated the updated HGTC ECUs that further shortened the shift times.

The 612 & 599 are F1A and F1-SuperFast systems are incrementally improved upon but the primary hardware benefit is really the twin plate dry clutch on late 612s and 599s.

The 599s Enzo-derived engine features chain driven cams (no cam belts) and Ferrari clearly made a few manuals, presumably because a few important clients begged them to do them but it would appear that they weren't asked, or resisted the pressure, to make any late-model twin-plate-clutch 612 manuals.

[250GTE]

RobM77 said:

dino_jr said:

250GTE said:

I run a '61 250GTE

Blimey... Pics of your 250 please?

I looked at 250's profile, but no pic! I'd love to see it and the 575 as well if poss

Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 10th February 13:47

The GTE, part of a line of manual 2+2 Ferraris that ends with the 612

[250GTE]

The 575

I don't know why the image is so small but you can click on it I hope !

Cheers

[RobM77]

Beautiful! Perfect colours for both cars too - that's exactly how I pictured them when I read that you had both.

[unsprung]

1ians said:

unsprung said:

Traversing the Continent in a V12 grand tourer. Does driving enjoyment get any more classical than this? Countless moments to savour.

I saw a UK plated one in Calais yesterday and had the same thought! (Whilst I was there in my diesel family barge).

haha... But at least you were en France

[estacion]

JohnG1 said:

Well, LCT does skew the prices unwards somewhat...

If that car was in Sydney I would have a look. But Brisbane is too far for a jolly on a maybe.

Would be good to have a second V12 manual in the fleet though..

This car has now sold, took a couple of days! Shows their is a strong demand for these manual cars!

[250GTE]

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/612-599/477310-61...

Upshot, not worth it

[Mogul]

I recall reading about a guy who wanted a manual 360CS so badly that instead of starting with a 360CS and attempting to rip out the F1, he started with a regular 360 Manual and added as many CS bits as he could find (i.e. not just the cosmetic stuff)!

[RobM77]

Just as a random thought for the morning, inspired by the above 360CS story: It's quite ironic isn't it that Ferrari, who most regard as an emotive Italian marque, are keen to push the latest technology in their cars; whereas Porsche, who most regard as a Germanic technological engineering based marque, offer manual boxes on their GT3 cars, in fact the Cayman GT4 comes with the six speed manual as standard? You'd think it'd be the other way round. I wonder if the tendency of both marques to work on their perceived (not actual, perceived) weaknesses is in some way deliberate, or widens their appeal beyond what it was in the past?

[RobM77]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Maybe it's just me, but I've always noticed how much more Ferrari's marketing department push their tech more than Porsche. The very latest PDK-only GT3 is the blip, not the other way round: every other GT3 up to the latest one has come with a manual box, whilst every comparable Ferrari from the 360CS onwards has been 'F1' only. Plus look at both of their more run of the mill cars: the ratio of seq autos to manuals is so much greater with Ferraris. As for the 918, surely you've heard of the LaFerrari?! They're evens on that one.

[Dangermouse78]

Gotta love a manual, have to say that Fizza looks great in Silver