RE: Honda Civic Type R - more details
Discussion
macky17 said:
FN2 has the most God-awful, unforgiving ride of any car I've ever driven. Great engine and gearbox though. Handling not as bad as they say.
The 19 inch optional alloys ruin the ride totally - a friend has one that had them on and he's swapped 'em out for some 18s and the ride is far far better. Firm but acceptable IMO.HorneyMX5 said:
Untitled by Nicholas R Horne, on FlickrTo be honest squeezing dash plastics doesn't float my boat, I prefer squeezing boobs and bums for tactile joy.
It is a good torque band though and they trouble most hot hatches up to very naughty speeds.
zeppelin101 said:
You mean systems like this? Or this? Or maybe this? Hey, even this! All of which are many, many times cleverer than VTEC.
They do exist, but the fact of the matter is that for a given power requirement, the fuel flow is almost always lower at a lower engine speed. Result? Run the engine at lower engine speeds all the time, which means higher effective loads (some engines now-a-days run drive cycles in the 7-18 bar BMEP region with engine speeds not exceeding ~2000 rpm).
There is customer requirement then there is legal requirement. What's the point in making a car for a consumer who can't buy it because they aren't legally allowed to sell it? Emissions regs for both CO2 and particulates etc are only getting tighter (China have no introduced legislation on particulates as well which has made a hard job many times harder overnight) and show no sign of relenting.
My comment was slightly tongue in cheek to be fair and yes I know there are better systems available now but that sort of proves my point, the tech is out there. I am sure if those clever Honda engineers really wanted to, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they could make a car that's economical AND could also rev.They do exist, but the fact of the matter is that for a given power requirement, the fuel flow is almost always lower at a lower engine speed. Result? Run the engine at lower engine speeds all the time, which means higher effective loads (some engines now-a-days run drive cycles in the 7-18 bar BMEP region with engine speeds not exceeding ~2000 rpm).
There is customer requirement then there is legal requirement. What's the point in making a car for a consumer who can't buy it because they aren't legally allowed to sell it? Emissions regs for both CO2 and particulates etc are only getting tighter (China have no introduced legislation on particulates as well which has made a hard job many times harder overnight) and show no sign of relenting.
For instance one possibility (and don't laugh) is that they could use hybrid\electric technology to achieve this, sort of like the systems in the P1\LaFerrari\918 except a lot simpler and cheaper. Use a small electric motor and small bank of batteries to do torque fill and low speed driving to enable them to game the EU emissions and then make the petrol engine do all the exciting work at the top end.
I know emissions are getting tighter but rather than just making every car drive the same boring way with all the power at low revs, they could used this opportunity to really get innovative while also sticking their fingers up at the stupid EU, much like the new batch of hypercars have done but at a much more realistic price point.
Honda even have previous experience with this with the Insight, so I am just a little disappointed that they seem to have gone down the rather boring, tried and tested turbo route. The first manufacturer to make a performance orientated hybrid at sensible money won't be able to sell them fast enough IMO.
R1gtr said:
But if it is around the 30k mark us there anyone who would seriously buy one of these above a Focus RS? The Focus will destroy it and a few mods and you will be at 400bhp with 4wd, the Civic will be too firm and will torque steer down your normal road surface in this country.
I reckon the RS and Megane will destroy it come group test time in the mags.
The 4WD technology in the new RS has been hyped and does look good, but as long as the Type R comes with a diff it will handle perfectly well. My FN2 doesn't have a diff at present and is running 300 bhp, I have yet to torque steer into an old dear stood at a bus stop... I reckon the RS and Megane will destroy it come group test time in the mags.
Guvernator said:
My comment was slightly tongue in cheek to be fair and yes I know there are better systems available now but that sort of proves my point, the tech is out there. I am sure if those clever Honda engineers really wanted to, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they could make a car that's economical AND could also rev.
For instance one possibility (and don't laugh) is that they could use hybrid\electric technology to achieve this, sort of like the systems in the P1\LaFerrari\918 except a lot simpler and cheaper. Use a small electric motor and small bank of batteries to do torque fill and low speed driving to enable them to game the EU emissions and then make the petrol engine do all the exciting work at the top end.
I know emissions are getting tighter but rather than just making every car drive the same boring way with all the power at low revs, they could used this opportunity to really get innovative while also sticking their fingers up at the stupid EU, much like the new batch of hypercars have done but at a much more realistic price point.
Honda even have previous experience with this with the Insight, so I am just a little disappointed that they seem to have gone down the rather boring, tried and tested turbo route. The first manufacturer to make a performance orientated hybrid at sensible money won't be able to sell them fast enough IMO.
Totally agree, surprised that more normal hybrids haven't been launched, perhaps they will over the next few years (e.g. BMW 3er etc) and then we'll get some hot hatch/performance cars as you describe...tho' they'll still probably have relatively low revving turbos as the ICE.For instance one possibility (and don't laugh) is that they could use hybrid\electric technology to achieve this, sort of like the systems in the P1\LaFerrari\918 except a lot simpler and cheaper. Use a small electric motor and small bank of batteries to do torque fill and low speed driving to enable them to game the EU emissions and then make the petrol engine do all the exciting work at the top end.
I know emissions are getting tighter but rather than just making every car drive the same boring way with all the power at low revs, they could used this opportunity to really get innovative while also sticking their fingers up at the stupid EU, much like the new batch of hypercars have done but at a much more realistic price point.
Honda even have previous experience with this with the Insight, so I am just a little disappointed that they seem to have gone down the rather boring, tried and tested turbo route. The first manufacturer to make a performance orientated hybrid at sensible money won't be able to sell them fast enough IMO.
Eta: Future BMW hybrids: http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/future-...
Edited by danp on Thursday 12th February 10:39
SR06 said:
motor mad said:
The last Type-R wasn't a joke. The joke was people taking idiot Clarksons words as gospel and not driving it themselves before coming to a conclusion! The car has aged really well, has a brilliant engine and gearbox and with a bit of setup can handle very well.
I look forward to finally seeing the specs and design of the new Type-R, but hope Honda learn from how Ford released details of the new RS!
It had more cheap plastic than an own-brand HIFI. A torqueless rattling turd of a creation.I look forward to finally seeing the specs and design of the new Type-R, but hope Honda learn from how Ford released details of the new RS!
The Fn2 was a good improvement from the already very good Ep3. I Expect this new Type R to be a huge jump forward again....
I also expect it to wipe the floor with a Golf R....which is why the owners of them are getting their b
hing out of the way early 
Some people don't like high revving naturally aspirated engines. Some people don't like turbocharged engines. If you are in the latter camp, the K20 is about as good as naturally aspirated two litre fours get. There used to be a choice, sadly turbocharging is now the only game in town.
otolith said:
Some people don't like high revving naturally aspirated engines. Some people don't like turbocharged engines. If you are in the latter camp, the K20 is about as good as naturally aspirated two litre fours get. There used to be a choice, sadly turbocharging is now the only game in town.
Honda had the chance to combine both ..the twin scroll JDM impreza will do 8000rpmDagnut said:
Honda had the chance to combine both ..the twin scroll JDM impreza will do 8000rpm
There are two issues there - I think the only way to make a four pot sound good is to make it a screamer, so yes, higher revs would be an improvement in that regard. The other issue is turbocharged power delivery, the unavoidable inconsistency in throttle position, revs and torque output that comes from the third variable of boost. Despite every new generation of turbocharged engines promising "no lag", it's still there. Not to the extent that you have to drive round it, but enough to be annoying if it's something that bothers you.otolith said:
There are two issues there - I think the only way to make a four pot sound good is to make it a screamer, so yes, higher revs would be an improvement in that regard. The other issue is turbocharged power delivery, the unavoidable inconsistency in throttle position, revs and torque output that comes from the third variable of boost. Despite every new generation of turbocharged engines promising "no lag", it's still there. Not to the extent that you have to drive round it, but enough to be annoying if it's something that bothers you.
Honda are the one company you would expect to get it right. They had so much time with this car. They call it a "Vtec turbo" but it only does 7000rpm..whats the point? What they've done is listen to their marketing people and gone down the same route as the competitors, giving the big wallop of torque to keep the TDI generation happy.
Dagnut said:
and it was also about 10 years ago...people act like Turbos charging and high RPM are mutually exclusive they aren't.
Exactly, Nissan had the the twin turbo RB26 in their GT-R's that could rev to 8000rpm and that engine was designed in the 80's, Subaru had their boxer engine in the Subaru's that could rev to 8250rpm and that was in the early 90's. We've had direct fuel injection, variable vain turbo's and all sorts of techno trickery developed since then. Surely they could make an engine that could deliver relatively lag free low response, rev in a proper exciting fashion and still deliver semi decent mpg with 25 years of development since those relatively basic engines?I can only see one reason why they haven't and that's because as you've said we now have everyone driving around in TDI's with their "walls" of low down torque thinking that they are going really fast, drivers have become lazy and the manufacturers are more than happy to pander to that as it's relatively easy to do. It's fine if all you are doing is schleping to and from work on the motorway but as far as I am concerned that kind of power delivery has no place in anything which claims to be a "hot hatch" or exciting to drive but it seems I am in the minority.
Guvernator said:
Exactly, Nissan had the the twin turbo RB26 in their GT-R's that could rev to 8000rpm and that engine was designed in the 80's, Subaru had their boxer engine in the Subaru's that could rev to 8250rpm and that was in the early 90's. We've had direct fuel injection, variable vain turbo's and all sorts of techno trickery developed since then. Surely they could make an engine that could deliver relatively lag free low response, rev in a proper exciting fashion and still deliver semi decent mpg with 25 years of development since those relatively basic engines?
I can only see one reason why they haven't and that's because as you've said we now have everyone driving around in TDI's with their "walls" of low down torque thinking that they are going really fast, drivers have become lazy and the manufacturers are more than happy to pander to that as it's relatively easy to do. It's fine if all you are doing is schleping to and from work on the motorway but as far as I am concerned that kind of power delivery has no place in anything which claims to be a "hot hatch" or exciting to drive but it seems I am in the minority.
It's not a surprise Honda have gone down the same route, because that's what the market place dictates, but I had hoped for a different approach from them.I can only see one reason why they haven't and that's because as you've said we now have everyone driving around in TDI's with their "walls" of low down torque thinking that they are going really fast, drivers have become lazy and the manufacturers are more than happy to pander to that as it's relatively easy to do. It's fine if all you are doing is schleping to and from work on the motorway but as far as I am concerned that kind of power delivery has no place in anything which claims to be a "hot hatch" or exciting to drive but it seems I am in the minority.
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